642 réponses à ce sujet

[Lennard Testarossa]

Plaintiff wrote...
Or it could be because they don't have a lot of white people hanging around, hoping to star in their movies, whereas the United States is racially diverse and could very easily attract stars from other nations (which it has done in the past) if it wanted or needed to.

The assumption being that these countries' films would suddenly be full of white people if they wanted to be in them?

Certainly, the US could make films (and has made films) with, say, a majority black or asian cast. Generally not doing that, however, does not need to have anything to do with racism. It also does not need to have anything to do with seeing whites as the 'default humans'. The ethnicity of characters in films mostly being the ethnicity of the majority of people living in the country the film is being made in is what happens in all countries, irregardless of what color the majority is.

Modifié par Lennard Testarossa, 01 juillet 2013 - 08:02 .

[Thiefy]

Steelcan wrote...

Thief-of-Hearts wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

@Thief of Hearts, I have no objection to your second point.

To your first, in regards to Dragon Age, both the warden and Hawke are both Ferelden in race. This is part of their characterization and is fairly integral. To me it would be immersion breaking if the Hero of Ferelden and Hawke were native to a predominantly white society but were not white. Now if they were from Tevinter or somewhere more cosmopoliton it would be a different story.

 
Hawke isn't "fereldan" ethinically, his or her family is from kirkwall. The Amells have been for while a while and daddy!Hawke is a circle mage. Kirkwall is a port town and the Circl of Magi are known to trade mages, so Hawke being racially diverse is a really big possibility.

Then you have Cousland!Warden, who is native fereldan. I posted this link earlier but I'll post it again: 
dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Alamarri 

there is the exact lore on the indigenious people of Fereldan. No where does it specifically say "white". Most people assume white though because for westerners that's the "default human". If you look at the concept art though, I don't think those features are those that solely belong to white people. I personally don't think they look "white" at all but that's not to say white people can't have those feature, either.

Hawke was born to a Marcher who could be of any race really, but Hawke's father, being Ferelden was in all likely hood white because that is what the vast majority of Fereldens seems to be.  I'll quote Gamlen on this "Ferelden apostate". 

The Cousland warden's family is all white.  The warden can be different, but everybody else is white.  Their appearance did not change as far as I know.

  
dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Malcolm_Hawke

Hawke's father was a circle mage transplant, nothing more or less. He could reasonably be any ethinicity. 

We are all aware of how the Couslands are strictly white. What people are challenging is the idea that they had to be strictly white, and even if that was the case, did everyone else in Highever, even the commoners and servants, need to be? As it stands, there is the lore page right there on "native fereldans". Where does it say that the people are specifically caucasian? Of course it doesn't say that they *arent* but just because of that I think it's a dangerous assumption to say that they are the *only* ethinic race.

[Plaintiff]

Steelcan wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Gotholhorakh wrote...

I would be firmly in favour of more variation in these games so that everyone can find people like them.

re: Tolkien

a) Middle Earth was intended to be a mythos for the English. It is not simply an imaginary world but a backdrop to the real world, and as such it is snowy in the north and less so in the south, the men of the east are often turkic or slavic, the men of the south are black and so on. Mordor is in the south east of the setting.

The author (on a few occasions) wrote of his particular dislike of allegory, which is also recanted by those who knew him, and he specifically stated there is no allegory in the Red Book of Westmarch

c) How dare you call J R R Tolkien a racist because of your inferences, one of the finest minds of his time or any, by all accounts a kind, decent man and a veteran of the Great War, who almost single-handedly gave us most of the bloody genre from which Dragon Age sprung and created most of the fantasy tropes you all wheel out every thirty seconds in every thread on this forum.


How dare you impugn the great man in your mission to make everything seem a bit more worthless and demoralized. Go stuff yourselves for that.

Many otherwise great and admirable people were racists. I suggest you get over it.

And you only have an inference from a book to suggest he was racist.  In all likelyhood he was a bit of the old racist grandpa, however going by the haradrim in Lord of the Rings is not the way to try and prove it.

So what? All we have of Robert E. Howard and H.P. Lovecraft is their fiction, and from that we can absolutely infer that they were unquestionably racist.

That Tolkien might have had some latent racial biases that might have leaked into his work should not be the least bit surprising or upsetting to any rational person, given the social climate of the time and place in which he lived.

[Enigmatick]

Plaintiff wrote...


That Tolkien might have had some latent racial biases that might have leaked into his work should not be the least bit surprising or upsetting to any rational person, given the social climate of the time and place in which he lived.

Tell that to Silfren.

[BouncyFrag]

iakus wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

The haradrim and rhun of Lord of the Rings aren't evil because they are del skinned, they are evil because they follow Sauron. They are dark because Tolkien understood the correltion between climate and skin color.

They're not even necessarilly evil:


"It was Sam's first view of a battle of Men against Men, and he did not like it much. He was glad that he could not see the dead face. He wondered what the man's name was and where he came from; and if he was really evil at heart, or what lies or threats had led him on the long march from his home; and if he would not really rather have stayed there in peace." 

I remember this quote the first time I read the LOTR. Sam sees a people he has never seen before in the most desparate of situations and is concerned about the content of their hearts rather than the color of their skin. Tolkein saw fit to put the fate of Middle-Earth literally on the shoulders of this young hobbit. If we were to make broad generalizations about the LOTR, it would be more appropriate consider content such as this as opposed to others' efforts to put forth their own agenda without even trying to give credible reasons.

Modifié par BouncyFrag, 01 juillet 2013 - 08:15 .

[Steelcan]

Thief-of-Hearts wrote...

dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Malcolm_Hawke

Hawke's father was a circle mage transplant, nothing more or less. He could reasonably be any ethinicity. 

We are all aware of how the Couslands are strictly white. What people are challenging is the idea that they had to be strictly white, and even if that was the case, did everyone else in Highever, even the commoners and servants, need to be? As it stands, there is the lore page right there on "native fereldans". Where does it say that the people are specifically caucasian? Of course it doesn't say that they *arent* but just because of that I think it's a dangerous assumption to say that they are the *only* ethinic race.

He was still from Ferelden, based on the experiences of the Warden in DA:O and the climate of Ferelden it is reasonable to infer most Fereldens are of fair skin.

[Silfren]

Plaintiff wrote...

Lennard Testarossa wrote...
This is not because Nigerians assume black people to be the norm or because Indians assume Indian people to be the norm. It's because the majority of people in their countries and in their market have that ethnicity.

Or it could be because they don't have a lot of white people hanging around, hoping to star in their movies, whereas the United States is racially diverse and could very easily attract stars from other nations (which it has done in the past) if it wanted or needed to.

Doing the math by the numbers given from Wikipedia's entry on U.S. racial demographics, even if you ignore the figures on mixed race or "some other race," if you add up the figures of people who identify as "Black or African American," "Asian American," "American Indian or Alaska Native," "Native Hawaiian or Pacific Islander" and "HIspanic or Latino," you get 107,553,426 people.  Out of 308,745,538.  That's a hefty chunk of people that have to be ignored to continue with this myth that it's mostly just white folks with a few darkies running around.

...I feel dirty just having written that.

[What a Succulent Ass]

Gotholhorakh wrote...
How dare you impugn the great man in your mission to make everything seem a bit more worthless and demoralized.

Bye.

[Plaintiff]

billy the squid wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

billy the squid wrote...
If you aren't that well in formed about a piece of literature then don't get in the middle of a discussion between two posters when you don't have the knowledge to support what was said. 

I never had anything to say about Lord of the Rings, until just now. It was your blatant intellectual dishonesty about the content of To Kill A Mockingbird that prompted me to post, and nothing else.

I was only ever talking about To Kill A Mockingbird. Don't make your discussion with me about Lord of the Rings.

Then read it and understand the context and point of what I said. If you can't then don't. If you think that is what I derived from To Kill a Mocking Bird, then you hoplessly misunderstood what I said and didn't read properly. 

I know enough about the text of Lord of the Rings to know that not a single black character within that text is presented as heroic. That is just pointing out a fact.

You deliberately lied about the content of To Kill A Mockingbird to make your "point". It's not the same thing at all.

[Ollys]

Plaintiff wrote...

Ollys wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

The haradrim and rhun of Lord of the Rings aren't evil because they are del skinned, they are evil because they follow Sauron. They are dark because Tolkien understood the correltion between climate and skin color.

Middle Earth is a fantasy world. Tolkien could've made the climate anything he damn well pleased. There is no reason whatsoever that the Haradrim and Rhun had to be black, and there is no reason that they had to be written as followers of Sauron. 

Why are the black people only followers of Sauron? Why do no black people side with the Alliance of Elves and Men?

 
Like Tolkin say - it easy to make world with green sun. But in  hard to make this world logical and real, world in what readers will belief.

Black people follow Sauron orders, cuz they country fall under Sauron influence. Its normal - you follow rules of your society. Same reason why islam is mostly dominated religion ob middle east or why orthodox is dominated in Russia and why westerners think that libaralism and democracy is somethink good. When everyone around you did that, you did the same and just follow damn rules and traditions and dont ask any questions about what right and what wrong.  

Green stars exist, man. The human eye can't perceive them, but that doesn't make them less real.

So all this tells me is that Tolkien just wasn't very well informed about astronomy or biology.

 
Green stars exist, but live under this sun must be pretty different on text terms. More fantasy stuff always easily make your world less logical. Like with magic-stuff - author can make high-magic setting but still with morality of our world, what makes no sence. For example, there is no reason consider murder like a crime with hard punishment for that in D&D like world where everyone around you can cast ressurection. Author must write absolutly unhuman logic to his characters for fit them under his fantasy-world logic. Same with green sun - you must ddo alot of work to make your world look real.

[Gotholhorakh]

Plaintiff wrote...
Many otherwise great and admirable people were racists. I suggest you get over it.

Racism itself is a wider issue. Mr Tolkien can have no such charge set against him other than messed up inference.

It is simply a malicious lie at this point. I get that some people want everyone else to have done something a bit wrong for some reason and will invent stuff - but really J.R.R. Tolkien isn't a great candidate.

Modifié par Gotholhorakh, 01 juillet 2013 - 08:13 .

[Steelcan]

Plaintiff wrote...

So what? All we have of Robert E. Howard and H.P. Lovecraft is their fiction, and from that we can absolutely infer that they were unquestionably racist.

That Tolkien might have had some latent racial biases that might have leaked into his work should not be the least bit surprising or upsetting to any rational person, given the social climate of the time and place in which he lived.

Once again, the Haradrim and Rhun in Lord of the Rings are not evil because they are dark skined, they are not evil really as the quote shows you.  They simply live in a desert/tropical environment and are of dark skin because of this.  if Sauron was based in the northern mountains his followers would be more light in skin color.  The issue of the haradrim is one of geography. not racism. 

[Silfren]

Steelcan wrote...

@Silfren, really? Ferelden = England, Orlais = France, Tevinter = Byzantium, Anderfells = German people in Russia, Free Marches = independent city states.

Inspired from them, sure.  Equal to them, hell no.  Last I checked, neither England, France, Byzantium, Russia, or anywhere else has ever been home to darkspawn, dragons, mages, Kossith, etc.

[Thiefy]

Steelcan wrote...

Thief-of-Hearts wrote...

dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Malcolm_Hawke

Hawke's father was a circle mage transplant, nothing more or less. He could reasonably be any ethinicity. 

We are all aware of how the Couslands are strictly white. What people are challenging is the idea that they had to be strictly white, and even if that was the case, did everyone else in Highever, even the commoners and servants, need to be? As it stands, there is the lore page right there on "native fereldans". Where does it say that the people are specifically caucasian? Of course it doesn't say that they *arent* but just because of that I think it's a dangerous assumption to say that they are the *only* ethinic race.

He was still from Ferelden, based on the experiences of the Warden in DA:O and the climate of Ferelden it is reasonable to infer most Fereldens are of fair skin.

 
Yeah, except that most of the chasind we see are dark skinned... 
which also has some unfortunate implications now that i think about it.

[Steelcan]

Silfren wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Lennard Testarossa wrote...
This is not because Nigerians assume black people to be the norm or because Indians assume Indian people to be the norm. It's because the majority of people in their countries and in their market have that ethnicity.

Or it could be because they don't have a lot of white people hanging around, hoping to star in their movies, whereas the United States is racially diverse and could very easily attract stars from other nations (which it has done in the past) if it wanted or needed to.

Doing the math by the numbers given from Wikipedia's entry on U.S. racial demographics, even if you ignore the figures on mixed race or "some other race," if you add up the figures of people who identify as "Black or African American," "Asian American," "American Indian or Alaska Native," "Native Hawaiian or Pacific Islander" and "HIspanic or Latino," you get 107,553,426 people.  Out of 308,745,538.  That's a hefty chunk of people that have to be ignored to continue with this myth that it's mostly just white folks with a few darkies running around.

...I feel dirty just having written that.

Go to the midwest and it is like that.  My dad never saw a black person until he moved to New Orleans, where the demographics are practically reversed.

Modifié par Steelcan, 01 juillet 2013 - 08:13 .

[Plaintiff]

Enigmatick wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...


That Tolkien might have had some latent racial biases that might have leaked into his work should not be the least bit surprising or upsetting to any rational person, given the social climate of the time and place in which he lived.

Tell that to Silfren.

Yeah, just because it's expected doesn't mean it should be accepted.

Silfren is not the one throwing a hissy-fit at the notion that her favourite author was anything other than a sublime, perfect angel.

[Dhiro]

I was kinda hoping we wouldn't have to do the Tolkien dance again, I would like the series to separate itself from his fantasy conventions as much as it can.

But whatever, I agree with the OP.

[Lennard Testarossa]

Hazegurl wrote...
The fact that one group is expected(required) to identify with one particular group is based on a superiority mindset which is the basis of racism. I believe that is his point he's trying to make with you.

I've already pointed out that that is not the case, though.

[Steelcan]

Silfren wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

@Silfren, really? Ferelden = England, Orlais = France, Tevinter = Byzantium, Anderfells = German people in Russia, Free Marches = independent city states.

Inspired from them, sure.  Equal to them, hell no.  Last I checked, neither England, France, Byzantium, Russia, or anywhere else has ever been home to darkspawn, dragons, mages, Kossith, etc.

Issues that will inevitably rise within any fantasy setting.  I don't have to find hobbits to tell you that the Shire is rural England/Scotland transplanted into a fantasy world.

[Plaintiff]

Ollys wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Ollys wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

The haradrim and rhun of Lord of the Rings aren't evil because they are del skinned, they are evil because they follow Sauron. They are dark because Tolkien understood the correltion between climate and skin color.

Middle Earth is a fantasy world. Tolkien could've made the climate anything he damn well pleased. There is no reason whatsoever that the Haradrim and Rhun had to be black, and there is no reason that they had to be written as followers of Sauron. 

Why are the black people only followers of Sauron? Why do no black people side with the Alliance of Elves and Men?

 
Like Tolkin say - it easy to make world with green sun. But in  hard to make this world logical and real, world in what readers will belief.

Black people follow Sauron orders, cuz they country fall under Sauron influence. Its normal - you follow rules of your society. Same reason why islam is mostly dominated religion ob middle east or why orthodox is dominated in Russia and why westerners think that libaralism and democracy is somethink good. When everyone around you did that, you did the same and just follow damn rules and traditions and dont ask any questions about what right and what wrong.  

Green stars exist, man. The human eye can't perceive them, but that doesn't make them less real.

So all this tells me is that Tolkien just wasn't very well informed about astronomy or biology.

 
Green stars exist, but live under this sun must be pretty different on text terms. More fantasy stuff always easily make your world less logical. Like with magic-stuff - author can make high-magic setting but still with morality of our world, what makes no sence. For example, there is no reason consider murder like a crime with hard punishment for that in D&D like world where everyone around you can cast ressurection. Author must write absolutly unhuman logic to his characters for fit them under his fantasy-world logic. Same with green sun - you must ddo alot of work to make your world look real.

A green sun works the same way was a yellow sun, they're just different colours.

If anything, all you need to change is the way that human eyes work.

"One day the humans of Earth evolved to see a wider spectrum of light wavelengths. The suddenly realised that their sun is sort-of green. They got over it and everything was cool. The End."

[Steelcan]

Dhiro wrote...

I was kinda hoping we wouldn't have to do the Tolkien dance again, I would like the series to separate itself from his fantasy conventions as much as it can.

But whatever, I agree with the OP.

  You can't seperate from the founding=], no Lord of the Rings would mean no DA, Elder Scrolls, 90% of modern fantasy

[Ollys]

Silfren wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

@Silfren, really? Ferelden = England, Orlais = France, Tevinter = Byzantium, Anderfells = German people in Russia, Free Marches = independent city states.

Inspired from them, sure.  Equal to them, hell no.  Last I checked, neither England, France, Byzantium, Russia, or anywhere else has ever been home to darkspawn, dragons, mages, Kossith, etc.

 
There is alot kossiths in real world conterpart of Tevinter. They conquered it after all.

[Silfren]

Hazegurl wrote...

Lennard Testarossa wrote...

Silfren wrote...
Yet people of color are expected to identify with white people ALL THE TIME.

Indeed. You still haven't pointed out to me how that comes from racism, though.

In Lay terms

Identify:
1. To establish the identity of.2. To ascertain the origin, nature, or definitive characteristics of.3. Biology To determine the taxonomic classification of (an organism).4. To consider as identical or united; equate.5. To associate or affiliate (oneself) closely with a person or group.

Racism:
1. The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.2. Discrimination or prejudice based on race.

Now look at Silfren's post again: "people of color are expected to identify with white people..."

The fact that one group is expected(required) to identify with one particular group is based on a superiority mindset which is the basis of racism. I believe that is his point he's trying to make with you.

Her point, but sure.  Given that their first response to the idea that black persons are expected to identify with whites no problem, but that when the opposite comes up, the assumption is that whites couldn't possibly relate to black people, was to ask "sure, but how is this racist," I wouldn't bother wasting my time.  They're going to shove their fingers in their ears and duck tape their eyes closed no matter how much time you spend spelling it out for them.

Modifié par Silfren, 01 juillet 2013 - 08:28 .

[Steelcan]

Thief-of-Hearts wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Thief-of-Hearts wrote...

dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Malcolm_Hawke

Hawke's father was a circle mage transplant, nothing more or less. He could reasonably be any ethinicity. 

We are all aware of how the Couslands are strictly white. What people are challenging is the idea that they had to be strictly white, and even if that was the case, did everyone else in Highever, even the commoners and servants, need to be? As it stands, there is the lore page right there on "native fereldans". Where does it say that the people are specifically caucasian? Of course it doesn't say that they *arent* but just because of that I think it's a dangerous assumption to say that they are the *only* ethinic race.

He was still from Ferelden, based on the experiences of the Warden in DA:O and the climate of Ferelden it is reasonable to infer most Fereldens are of fair skin.

 
Yeah, except that most of the chasind we see are dark skinned... 
which also has some unfortunate implications now that i think about it.

"dark skinned barbarians" nothing unusual at all there.  Its just a fantasy trope.

[Plaintiff]

Dhiro wrote...

I was kinda hoping we wouldn't have to do the Tolkien dance again, I would like the series to separate itself from his fantasy conventions as much as it can.

But whatever, I agree with the OP.

I think Tolkien freaking sucks, and I hate the way that the vast majority of fantasy seeks to ape him instead of trying anything slightly original.