642 réponses à ce sujet

[Silfren]

Ollys wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

@Silfren, really? Ferelden = England, Orlais = France, Tevinter = Byzantium, Anderfells = German people in Russia, Free Marches = independent city states.

Inspired from them, sure.  Equal to them, hell no.  Last I checked, neither England, France, Byzantium, Russia, or anywhere else has ever been home to darkspawn, dragons, mages, Kossith, etc.

 
There is alot kossiths in real world conterpart of Tevinter. They conquered it after all.

......You believe there's actual Kossith in the world?  Ho-kay.....

[Thiefy]

Steelcan wrote...

Thief-of-Hearts wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Thief-of-Hearts wrote...

dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Malcolm_Hawke

Hawke's father was a circle mage transplant, nothing more or less. He could reasonably be any ethinicity. 

We are all aware of how the Couslands are strictly white. What people are challenging is the idea that they had to be strictly white, and even if that was the case, did everyone else in Highever, even the commoners and servants, need to be? As it stands, there is the lore page right there on "native fereldans". Where does it say that the people are specifically caucasian? Of course it doesn't say that they *arent* but just because of that I think it's a dangerous assumption to say that they are the *only* ethinic race.

He was still from Ferelden, based on the experiences of the Warden in DA:O and the climate of Ferelden it is reasonable to infer most Fereldens are of fair skin.

 
Yeah, except that most of the chasind we see are dark skinned... 
which also has some unfortunate implications now that i think about it.

"dark skinned barbarians" nothing unusual at all there.  Its just a fantasy trope.

 
I seriously hope you are being sarcastic.

[Steelcan]

Plaintiff wrote...

Dhiro wrote...

I was kinda hoping we wouldn't have to do the Tolkien dance again, I would like the series to separate itself from his fantasy conventions as much as it can.

But whatever, I agree with the OP.

I think Tolkien freaking sucks, and I hate the way that the vast majority of fantasy seeks to ape him instead of trying anything slightly original.

Because Tolkien made an ungodly amount of money, simple as that.

[Dhiro]

Steelcan wrote...

Dhiro wrote...

I was kinda hoping we wouldn't have to do the Tolkien dance again, I would like the series to separate itself from his fantasy conventions as much as it can.

But whatever, I agree with the OP.

  You can't seperate from the founding=], no Lord of the Rings would mean no DA, Elder Scrolls, 90% of modern fantasy

Ew. Go wash your filthy mouth.

[Steelcan]

Thief-of-Hearts wrote...

I seriously hope you are being sarcastic.

I stopped being serious about half an hour ago

[Lennard Testarossa]

Plaintiff wrote...
A green sun works the same way was a yellow sun, they're just different colours.

Actually, a star being green would mean that it does not follow Planck's law, which would mean that it does not in any way work the same way as a yellow sun.

[Silfren]

Gotholhorakh wrote...

I would be firmly in favour of more variation in these games so that everyone can find people like them.

re: Tolkien

a) Middle Earth was intended to be a mythos for the English. It is not simply an imaginary world but a backdrop to the real world, and as such it is snowy in the north and less so in the south, the men of the east are often turkic or slavic, the men of the south are black and so on. Mordor is in the south east of the setting.

The author (on a few occasions) wrote of his particular dislike of allegory, which is also recanted by those who knew him, and he specifically stated there is no allegory in the Red Book of Westmarch

c) How dare you call J R R Tolkien a racist because of your inferences, one of the finest minds of his time or any, by all accounts a kind, decent man and a veteran of the Great War, who almost single-handedly gave us most of the bloody genre from which Dragon Age sprung and created most of the fantasy tropes you all wheel out every thirty seconds in every thread on this forum.


How dare you impugn the great man in your mission to make everything seem a bit more worthless and demoralized. Go stuff yourselves for that.

....Tolkien was a human being, complete with all the virtues AND vices that come with such.  Let's not put him on an unwarranted pedestal, hmm.  He was among the world's greatest linguist, and he was a masterful storyteller, but he was not the second coming of Christ.  Some perspective is in order.

[Steelcan]

http://media.tumblr....9cMd1r74ru8.gif

Dhiro wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Dhiro wrote...

I was kinda hoping we wouldn't have to do the Tolkien dance again, I would like the series to separate itself from his fantasy conventions as much as it can.

But whatever, I agree with the OP.

  You can't seperate from the founding=], no Lord of the Rings would mean no DA, Elder Scrolls, 90% of modern fantasy

Ew. Go wash your filthy mouth.

[Volus Warlord]

How is this still open?

[Plaintiff]

Steelcan wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Dhiro wrote...

I was kinda hoping we wouldn't have to do the Tolkien dance again, I would like the series to separate itself from his fantasy conventions as much as it can.

But whatever, I agree with the OP.

I think Tolkien freaking sucks, and I hate the way that the vast majority of fantasy seeks to ape him instead of trying anything slightly original.

Because Tolkien made an ungodly amount of money, simple as that.

I know why they do it, but their reasoning is faulty, the tactic doesn't work. It just leads to a bland, stale genre that nobody wants to read.

The stuff that is making money and getting recognition now is the stuff that is different from Tolkien. Harry Potter, His Dark Materials, Discworld and others all stand out because they are different.

[Ollys]

Silfren wrote...

Ollys wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

@Silfren, really? Ferelden = England, Orlais = France, Tevinter = Byzantium, Anderfells = German people in Russia, Free Marches = independent city states.

Inspired from them, sure.  Equal to them, hell no.  Last I checked, neither England, France, Byzantium, Russia, or anywhere else has ever been home to darkspawn, dragons, mages, Kossith, etc.

 
There is alot kossiths in real world conterpart of Tevinter. They conquered it after all.

......You believe there's actual Kossith in the world?  Ho-kay.....

 
And if brave polanders from Anderfels didnt stop kossith expansion in Europe in battle for Vienna in 1683, whole world probably will be they now.

Modifié par Ollys, 01 juillet 2013 - 08:23 .

[Jorji Costava]

 @Lennard Testarossa:

In fairness, US-made media has a much wider market than say, Nigerian cinema. An increasing number of American films are making most of their profits overseas. The additional scenes included in the Chinese version of Iron Man 3 attests to the importance of the world market.

[Steelcan]

Plaintiff wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Dhiro wrote...

I was kinda hoping we wouldn't have to do the Tolkien dance again, I would like the series to separate itself from his fantasy conventions as much as it can.

But whatever, I agree with the OP.

I think Tolkien freaking sucks, and I hate the way that the vast majority of fantasy seeks to ape him instead of trying anything slightly original.

Because Tolkien made an ungodly amount of money, simple as that.

I know why they do it, but their reasoning is faulty, the tactic doesn't work. It just leads to a bland, stale genre that nobody wants to read.

The stuff that is making money and getting recognition now is the stuff that is different from Tolkien. Harry Potter, His Dark Materials, Discworld and others all stand out because they are different.

Don't tell me that Harry Potter is different with a straight face.  Rowling didn't put an original thought into Harry Potter.

[Renwillow]

 For fear of setting off another cluster#$%@ of angry quote pyramids...

I feel like this discussion has become a bit of a battle redefining PCness in the fantasy genre.  Not that I haven't enjoyed the "was Tolkien racist or not" sidebar, but I get enough of that sort of conversation from my friends who think that an English major is a good career choice.  

It seems like we have 2 types of arguments going on.  First, we have "minority" (using this term pretty loosely given global statistics) consumers who would like to have a hero who looks more like them.  On the other, we have the reality of a game set in ONE continent (based on Europe) that is pretty isolated from any other continents that might exist in that world.  The more you add racial diversity to a small geographic areaa, the more you push the boundaries of realism.  Well, pushing realism more than a fantasy RPG already does.

Both are completely understandable viewpoints, but I'm not sure you can really get one without sacrificing the other.  At what point is a compromise really achievable?

Now that my somewhat serious point has been made...

However, if you're some white person who just wants to play an Asian character because you think you'd look like a badass ninja, I'll be over in my corner here laughing at you.

[Lennard Testarossa]

Silfren wrote...
Her point, but sure.  Given that their first response to the idea that black persons are expected to identify with whites no problem, but that when the opposite comes up, the assumption is that whites couldn't possibly relate to black people, was to ask "sure, but how is this racist," I wouldn't bother wasting my time.  They're going to shove their fingers in their ears and duck tape their eyes closed no matter how much time you spend spelling it out for them.

Frankly, that's what you're doing. I've already explained in detail how this does not arise from notions of racial supremacy, but rather from the perception of who is the largest market.

[Gotholhorakh]

Silfren wrote...

A man can be a long way short of the second coming of Christ and it's still unwarranted to say he was a racist, child molester or whatever.

Not making stuff up about people is what all the cool kids do.

Modifié par Gotholhorakh, 01 juillet 2013 - 08:26 .

[Silfren]

Enigmatick wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...


That Tolkien might have had some latent racial biases that might have leaked into his work should not be the least bit surprising or upsetting to any rational person, given the social climate of the time and place in which he lived.

Tell that to Silfren.

...Dude, I'm the one in total agreement with Plaintiff, where've you been?  I'm not surprised or upset by it in any way.  This whole idiotic side-argument started when I pointed out to another post lamenting the fact that someone had the nerve to call Lord of the Rings racist, that in fact it does have racist implications and this is something that has been discussed by many people for many years.  

[Plaintiff]

Steelcan wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Dhiro wrote...

I was kinda hoping we wouldn't have to do the Tolkien dance again, I would like the series to separate itself from his fantasy conventions as much as it can.

But whatever, I agree with the OP.

I think Tolkien freaking sucks, and I hate the way that the vast majority of fantasy seeks to ape him instead of trying anything slightly original.

Because Tolkien made an ungodly amount of money, simple as that.

I know why they do it, but their reasoning is faulty, the tactic doesn't work. It just leads to a bland, stale genre that nobody wants to read.

The stuff that is making money and getting recognition now is the stuff that is different from Tolkien. Harry Potter, His Dark Materials, Discworld and others all stand out because they are different.

Don't tell me that Harry Potter is different with a straight face.  Rowling didn't put an original thought into Harry Potter.

And Tolkien did, when he was shamelessly ripping off Norse mythology?

Harry Potter is significantly different from Lord of the Rings, which is what I was talking about, and unlike Lord of the Rings it managed to build a very thorough and compelling world without constantly stopping to spend several thousand words patting itself on the back.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 01 juillet 2013 - 08:28 .

[Silfren]

Gotholhorakh wrote...

Silfren wrote...

A man can be a long way short of the second coming of Christ and it's still unwarranted to say he was a racist, child molester or whatever.

Not making stuff up about people is what all the cool kids do.

Jesus ****ing Christ are you a ****ing idiot or do you just lack the ability to read?

[Lennard Testarossa]

osbornep wrote...
In fairness, US-made media has a much wider market than say, Nigerian cinema. An increasing number of American films are making most of their profits overseas. The additional scenes included in the Chinese version of Iron Man 3 attests to the importance of the world market.

Indeed. Now, I haven't seen Iron Man 3 (or the Chinese version of Iron Man 3 for that matter), but I assume they included additional scenes with more asian actors? If so, this only proves that the ethnical makeup of movie casts tends to change if the makers think it will give them a higher profit. Which is exactly what I've been saying all the time:

It's not about racism. It's about profit.

Modifié par Lennard Testarossa, 01 juillet 2013 - 08:28 .

[Steelcan]

Renwillow wrote...

It seems like we have 2 types of arguments going on.  First, we have "minority" (using this term pretty loosely given global statistics) consumers who would like to have a hero who looks more like them.  On the other, we have the reality of a game set in ONE continent (based on Europe) that is pretty isolated from any other continents that might exist in that world.  The more you add racial diversity to a small geographic areaa, the more you push the boundaries of realism.  Well, pushing realism more than a fantasy RPG already does.

.  And given said world's lack of a transportation infrasturucture, the occasional merchant, companion, traveler, etc... won't bug me in the slightest.

[Hazegurl]

Silfren wrote...

Hazegurl wrote...

Lennard Testarossa wrote...

Silfren wrote...
Yet people of color are expected to identify with white people ALL THE TIME.

Indeed. You still haven't pointed out to me how that comes from racism, though.

In Lay terms

Identify:
1. To establish the identity of.2. To ascertain the origin, nature, or definitive characteristics of.3. Biology To determine the taxonomic classification of (an organism).4. To consider as identical or united; equate.5. To associate or affiliate (oneself) closely with a person or group.

Racism:
1. The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.2. Discrimination or prejudice based on race.

Now look at Silfren's post again: "people of color are expected to identify with white people..."

The fact that one group is expected(required) to identify with one particular group is based on a superiority mindset which is the basis of racism. I believe that is his point he's trying to make with you.

Her point, but sure.  Given that their first response to the idea that black persons are expected to identify with whites no problem, but that when the opposite comes up, the assumption is that whites couldn't possibly relate to black people, was to ask "sure, but how is this racist," I wouldn't bother wasting my time.  They're going to shove their fingers in their ears and duck tape their eyes closed no matter how much time you spend spelling it out for them.

Yeah there is no point. He'll just keep asking "but how is that racism." lol!

[Silfren]

Plaintiff wrote...

Dhiro wrote...

I was kinda hoping we wouldn't have to do the Tolkien dance again, I would like the series to separate itself from his fantasy conventions as much as it can.

But whatever, I agree with the OP.

I think Tolkien freaking sucks, and I hate the way that the vast majority of fantasy seeks to ape him instead of trying anything slightly original.

Heh.  I adore Tolkien's writings...in fact I just picked up a new book he wrote that Christopher got published, about King Arthur.  But even I would like to see some of the conventions he started die.  Just because I love Tolkien doesn't mean I also like copycat repetition.  I hate it.  There's something to be said for originality, yo.

There, I said it: I love Tolkien yet I'm quite capable of recognizing how problematic much of his work is.

Modifié par Silfren, 01 juillet 2013 - 08:33 .

[billy the squid]

Plaintiff wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

billy the squid wrote...
If you aren't that well in formed about a piece of literature then don't get in the middle of a discussion between two posters when you don't have the knowledge to support what was said. 

I never had anything to say about Lord of the Rings, until just now. It was your blatant intellectual dishonesty about the content of To Kill A Mockingbird that prompted me to post, and nothing else.

I was only ever talking about To Kill A Mockingbird. Don't make your discussion with me about Lord of the Rings.

Then read it and understand the context and point of what I said. If you can't then don't. If you think that is what I derived from To Kill a Mocking Bird, then you hoplessly misunderstood what I said and didn't read properly. 

I know enough about the text of Lord of the Rings to know that not a single black character within that text is presented as heroic. That is just pointing out a fact.

You deliberately lied about the content of To Kill A Mockingbird to make your "point". It's not the same thing at all.

Oh really? I stripped out all characters, content and context to deliberately make the same inane, absurd claim that the poster I was arguing with made, and used the exact same technique to achieve her own claim that there is implied racism within the literature. 

Do you understand? I went and bit your head off because you blundered into the middle of things. If you still haven't grasped that making a deliberately absurd comparison to highlight how stupid the intial calim was, then I really can't lower myself anymore intellectually to explain that to you. 

Yes, there's not one heroic character from Umbar and Rhun either. In fact Tolkien follows the Fellowship, it's not a geo political spanning novel like A Song of Ice and Fire, so why would it deal with any of the states under the Shadow of Sauron and how they came to fight or were subjigated? Why would there be characters from there when the Trilogy focuses on the War of the Ring which is in the West not the South and the East were other ethnic groups reside? It doesn't go into the actions of the Dwarves or the men of Dale either.

Pointing out "look there's no heroc black character!" and drawing implications from it is stupid and lazy.