642 réponses à ce sujet

[Gotholhorakh]

Plaintiff wrote...
And Tolkien did, when he was shamelessly ripping off Norse mythology?

Tolkien was a scholar well versed in other mythology who was quite explicit in drawing from it in the creation of his mythos.

At no point did he present those moments as original thought when he did stuff like Mirkwood, Gandalf etc. - nor would anybody have thought it was because it was quite overt.

On the other hand, as derivative as J K Rowling's treatment of Willy the Wizard is, it is wonderfully written for its target audience and is probably less derivative than most other fantasy work - which for the last 40 years has seen too many rewrites of The Red Book of Westmarch and Elric to count.

Filament wrote...

lol "how dare you"? Please. He was a
storyteller, not a demigod and not above criticism. He was human like
everyone else and likely the product of his time like everyone else.
That you compare the accusation of racism with that of child molestation
is awfully telling.

Is it really? Care to expand on that?

If true, it would not make him a monster and his contribution to fiction would be considered invaluable regardless. But it is what it is.

So, libel then. That's what it is when you slur people in an unsubstantiated way and publish it. I'm not cracking out the legal team here, it's just the wrong thing to do - the act of a jackass.

"Tolkien was a racist", "C S Lewis liked to shoplift soft toys". Yep, pretty silly.

Modifié par Gotholhorakh, 01 juillet 2013 - 08:39 .

[Steelcan]

Silfren wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Dhiro wrote...

I was kinda hoping we wouldn't have to do the Tolkien dance again, I would like the series to separate itself from his fantasy conventions as much as it can.

But whatever, I agree with the OP.

I think Tolkien freaking sucks, and I hate the way that the vast majority of fantasy seeks to ape him instead of trying anything slightly original.

Heh.  I adore Tolkien's writings...in fact I just picked up a new book he wrote that Christopher got published, about King Arthur.  But even I would like to see some of the conventions he started die.  Just because I love Tolkien doesn't mean I also like copycat repetition.  I hate it.  There's something to be said for originality, yo.

There, I said it: I love Tolkien yet I'm quite capable of recognizing how problematic much of his work is.

As long as copying him remains profitable, nothing will change.

[Silfren]

Plaintiff wrote...

Enigmatick wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...


That Tolkien might have had some latent racial biases that might have leaked into his work should not be the least bit surprising or upsetting to any rational person, given the social climate of the time and place in which he lived.

Tell that to Silfren.

Yeah, just because it's expected doesn't mean it should be accepted.

Silfren is not the one throwing a hissy-fit at the notion that her favourite author was anything other than a sublime, perfect angel.

I love a guy with actual reading comprehension skills.

[Plaintiff]

Silfren wrote...
Heh.  I adore Tolkien's writings...in fact I just picked up a new book he wrote that Christopher got published, about King Arthur.  But even I would like to see some of the conventions he started die.  Just because I love Tolkien doesn't mean I also like copycat repetition.  I hate it.  There's something to be said for originality, yo.

There, I said it: I love Tolkien yet I'm quite capable of recognizing how problematic much of his work is.

He just seems too proud of his imagination, if you ask me. He wants to show off this world and these languages that he created, without much thought for whether or not they actually serve the narrative, and often, at lleast for me, they detract from it heavily by dragging down the pacing.

But I can't deny that he is a staple of the genre.

[Palidane]

Plaintiff, do you really think To Kill a Mockingbird is a racist book? I can't tell if your joking or not.

[Rawgrim]

Plaintiff wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Dhiro wrote...

I was kinda hoping we wouldn't have to do the Tolkien dance again, I would like the series to separate itself from his fantasy conventions as much as it can.

But whatever, I agree with the OP.

I think Tolkien freaking sucks, and I hate the way that the vast majority of fantasy seeks to ape him instead of trying anything slightly original.

Because Tolkien made an ungodly amount of money, simple as that.

I know why they do it, but their reasoning is faulty, the tactic doesn't work. It just leads to a bland, stale genre that nobody wants to read.

The stuff that is making money and getting recognition now is the stuff that is different from Tolkien. Harry Potter, His Dark Materials, Discworld and others all stand out because they are different.

Don't tell me that Harry Potter is different with a straight face.  Rowling didn't put an original thought into Harry Potter.

And Tolkien did, when he was shamelessly ripping off Norse mythology?

Harry Potter is significantly different from Lord of the Rings, which is what I was talking about, and unlike Lord of the Rings it managed to build a very thorough and compelling world without constantly stopping to spend several thousand words patting itself on the back.

Mythology falls under "public domain", i belive. So anyone can use it for anything. He borrows abit from norse mythology, but I wouldn`t say its alot. Just some bits here and there.

Tolkien didn`t set out to just create a fantasy story, however, he also set out to create a myth in itself. Thats why there its abit heavy on the lecture. I get what you mean, though. If you want to see how one thoroughly ripps off someone elses work, check out Christopher Paulini...

[What a Succulent Ass]

Silfren wrote...

There, I said it: I love Tolkien yet I'm quite capable of recognizing how problematic much of his work is.

I hate the Lord of the Rings, it was disgusting, I hate it with my life, it will not leave me alone.

Modifié par Random Jerkface, 01 juillet 2013 - 08:39 .

[Plaintiff]

billy the squid wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

billy the squid wrote...
If you aren't that well in formed about a piece of literature then don't get in the middle of a discussion between two posters when you don't have the knowledge to support what was said. 

I never had anything to say about Lord of the Rings, until just now. It was your blatant intellectual dishonesty about the content of To Kill A Mockingbird that prompted me to post, and nothing else.

I was only ever talking about To Kill A Mockingbird. Don't make your discussion with me about Lord of the Rings.

Then read it and understand the context and point of what I said. If you can't then don't. If you think that is what I derived from To Kill a Mocking Bird, then you hoplessly misunderstood what I said and didn't read properly. 

I know enough about the text of Lord of the Rings to know that not a single black character within that text is presented as heroic. That is just pointing out a fact.

You deliberately lied about the content of To Kill A Mockingbird to make your "point". It's not the same thing at all.

Oh really? I stripped out all characters, content and context to deliberately make the same inane, absurd claim that the poster I was arguing with made, and used the exact same technique to achieve her own claim that there is implied racism within the literature. 

Do you understand? I went and bit your head off because you blundered into the middle of things. If you still haven't grasped that making a deliberately absurd comparison to highlight how stupid the intial calim was, then I really can't lower myself anymore intellectually to explain that to you. 

Yes, there's not one heroic character from Umbar and Rhun either. In fact Tolkien follows the Fellowship, it's not a geo political spanning novel like A Song of Ice and Fire, so why would it deal with any of the states under the Shadow of Sauron and how they came to fight or were subjigated? Why would there be characters from there when the Trilogy focuses on the War of the Ring which is in the West not the South and the East were other ethnic groups reside? It doesn't go into the actions of the Dwarves or the men of Dale either.

Pointing out "look there's no heroc black character!" and drawing implications from it is stupid and lazy. 

Okay, so... where are the heroic black characters in his other work? Or do all his novels deal only with the West, and never the East or South? And if that's the case, then why did he feel the need to include them at all? Simply to say "Hey, I invented all these other continents in my mind as well!" ?

Modifié par Plaintiff, 01 juillet 2013 - 08:41 .

[Steelcan]

Plaintiff wrote...

And Tolkien did, when he was shamelessly ripping off Norse mythology?

Harry Potter is significantly different from Lord of the Rings, which is what I was talking about, and unlike Lord of the Rings it managed to build a very thorough and compelling world without constantly stopping to spend several thousand words patting itself on the back.

He borrowed names and some aspects of mythology like dragons.  Hardly shamelessly ripping off,

[Plaintiff]

Palidane wrote...

Plaintiff, do you really think To Kill a Mockingbird is a racist book? I can't tell if your joking or not.

Um... no. I think you got me confused with another poster.

[AresKeith]

Random Jerkface wrote...

Silfren wrote...

There, I said it: I love Tolkien yet I'm quite capable of recognizing how problematic much of his work is.

I hate the Lord of the Rings, it was disgusting, I hate it with my life, it will not leave me alone.

[Steelcan]

Plaintiff wrote...

Okay, so... where are the heroic black characters in his other work? Or do all his novels deal only with the West, and never the East or South? And if that's the case, then why did he feel the need to include them at all? Simply to say "Hey, I invented all these other continents in my mind as well!" ?

Harad and Rhun are barely mentioned at all.  They are just distant foreign lands, portrayed neither as evil or inhuman so your racism argument falls flat.

[billy the squid]

Silfren wrote...

Enigmatick wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...


That Tolkien might have had some latent racial biases that might have leaked into his work should not be the least bit surprising or upsetting to any rational person, given the social climate of the time and place in which he lived.

Tell that to Silfren.

...Dude, I'm the one in total agreement with Plaintiff, where've you been?  I'm not surprised or upset by it in any way.  This whole idiotic side-argument started when I pointed out to another post lamenting the fact that someone had the nerve to call Lord of the Rings racist, that in fact it does have racist implications and this is something that has been discussed by many people for many years.  

I see you're still evading and dodging the point. "it has racist implications because I say it does" and ignoring everything in the literature which calls that into question. 

You still haven't been able to justify implicit racism in the literature as seperate from your own perception and bias implying it into the literature where none exists. 

[AresKeith]

Steelcan wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

And Tolkien did, when he was shamelessly ripping off Norse mythology?

Harry Potter is significantly different from Lord of the Rings, which is what I was talking about, and unlike Lord of the Rings it managed to build a very thorough and compelling world without constantly stopping to spend several thousand words patting itself on the back.

He borrowed names and some aspects of mythology like dragons.  Hardly shamelessly ripping off,

It's not like Tolkien was the only one to do this

[Steelcan]

AresKeith wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

And Tolkien did, when he was shamelessly ripping off Norse mythology?

Harry Potter is significantly different from Lord of the Rings, which is what I was talking about, and unlike Lord of the Rings it managed to build a very thorough and compelling world without constantly stopping to spend several thousand words patting itself on the back.

He borrowed names and some aspects of mythology like dragons.  Hardly shamelessly ripping off,

It's not like Tolkien was the only one to do this

And when comparing it to Harry Potter?

[Plaintiff]

Steelcan wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Okay, so... where are the heroic black characters in his other work? Or do all his novels deal only with the West, and never the East or South? And if that's the case, then why did he feel the need to include them at all? Simply to say "Hey, I invented all these other continents in my mind as well!" ?

Harad and Rhun are barely mentioned at all.  They are just distant foreign lands, portrayed neither as evil or inhuman so your racism argument falls flat.

I'm not making an argument, I am genuinely asking a question. Why go to all the trouble of crafting these continents that he didn't ever write about, except for a few hundred words in a novel where they supported the bad guy?

[Silfren]

Filament wrote...

lol "how dare you"? Please. He was a storyteller, not a demigod and not above criticism. He was human like everyone else and likely the product of his time like everyone else. That you compare the accusation of racism with that of child molestation is awfully telling.

If true, it would not make him a monster and his contribution to fiction would be considered invaluable regardless. But it is what it is.

Never mind that I never at any point said "Tolkien was a racist N*zi bastard who gave money to white supremacist groups and use black children in Satanic ritulals for the LULZ." 

It is entirely possible for a person to have certain cultural biases that creep into their writings quite unconsciously.  Tolkien wasn't the first to do it and he won't be the last, but given how much ink (digital and otherwise) has been spilled in discussing this issue, that his writings were problematic is, like it or not, kind of a given.  I am certainly not the one throwing a sh*tfit about it.

[Steelcan]

Silfren wrote...

Filament wrote...

lol "how dare you"? Please. He was a storyteller, not a demigod and not above criticism. He was human like everyone else and likely the product of his time like everyone else. That you compare the accusation of racism with that of child molestation is awfully telling.

If true, it would not make him a monster and his contribution to fiction would be considered invaluable regardless. But it is what it is.

Never mind that I never at any point said "Tolkien was a racist N*zi bastard who gave money to white supremacist groups and use black children in Satanic ritulals for the LULZ." 

It is entirely possible for a person to have certain cultural biases that creep into their writings quite unconsciously.  Tolkien wasn't the first to do it and he won't be the last, but given how much ink (digital and otherwise) has been spilled in discussing this issue, that his writings were problematic is, like it or not, kind of a given.  I am certainly not the one throwing a sh*tfit about it.

Absolutely, however, using Harad and Rhun as examples is not the way to go about proving this.

[Jorji Costava]

Lennard Testarossa wrote...

osbornep wrote...
In fairness, US-made media has a much wider market than say, Nigerian cinema. An increasing number of American films are making most of their profits overseas. The additional scenes included in the Chinese version of Iron Man 3 attests to the importance of the world market.

Indeed. Now, I haven't seen Iron Man 3 (or the Chinese version of Iron Man 3 for that matter), but I assume they included additional scenes with more asian actors? If so, this only proves that the ethnical makeup of movie casts tends to change if the makers think it will give them a higher profit. Which is exactly what I've been saying all the time:

It's not about racism. It's about profit.

You are correct about the Iron Man scenes. Still, it's a film with a white protagonist we expected to do well in countries with a largely non-white audience. Surely that reflects some expectation that non-white audiences will be able to invest themselves in a white character. We didn't recast Tony Stark for Chinese audiences, after all.

There's much more to be said, but (a) I don't want to get too far off discussing Dragon Age, and ( I'm getting tired of writing from a phone, and (b

Modifié par osbornep, 01 juillet 2013 - 08:52 .

[Plaintiff]

Steelcan wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

And Tolkien did, when he was shamelessly ripping off Norse mythology?

Harry Potter is significantly different from Lord of the Rings, which is what I was talking about, and unlike Lord of the Rings it managed to build a very thorough and compelling world without constantly stopping to spend several thousand words patting itself on the back.

He borrowed names and some aspects of mythology like dragons.  Hardly shamelessly ripping off,

It's not like Tolkien was the only one to do this

And when comparing it to Harry Potter?

Harry Potter did the exact same thing, to the exact same degree. It just borrowed from multiple folkloric and mythic cultures, rather than just the one, like Tolkien.

[AresKeith]

Steelcan wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

And Tolkien did, when he was shamelessly ripping off Norse mythology?

Harry Potter is significantly different from Lord of the Rings, which is what I was talking about, and unlike Lord of the Rings it managed to build a very thorough and compelling world without constantly stopping to spend several thousand words patting itself on the back.

He borrowed names and some aspects of mythology like dragons.  Hardly shamelessly ripping off,

It's not like Tolkien was the only one to do this

And when comparing it to Harry Potter?

I see it as borrowing aspects, but they aren't that different

[Silfren]

Steelcan wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Dhiro wrote...

I was kinda hoping we wouldn't have to do the Tolkien dance again, I would like the series to separate itself from his fantasy conventions as much as it can.

But whatever, I agree with the OP.

I think Tolkien freaking sucks, and I hate the way that the vast majority of fantasy seeks to ape him instead of trying anything slightly original.

Heh.  I adore Tolkien's writings...in fact I just picked up a new book he wrote that Christopher got published, about King Arthur.  But even I would like to see some of the conventions he started die.  Just because I love Tolkien doesn't mean I also like copycat repetition.  I hate it.  There's something to be said for originality, yo.

There, I said it: I love Tolkien yet I'm quite capable of recognizing how problematic much of his work is.

As long as copying him remains profitable, nothing will change.

I think it is changing, actually.  Lately I'm seeing a lot of works crop up in the fantasy genre that are markedly different. 

[Steelcan]

Plaintiff wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Okay, so... where are the heroic black characters in his other work? Or do all his novels deal only with the West, and never the East or South? And if that's the case, then why did he feel the need to include them at all? Simply to say "Hey, I invented all these other continents in my mind as well!" ?

Harad and Rhun are barely mentioned at all.  They are just distant foreign lands, portrayed neither as evil or inhuman so your racism argument falls flat.

I'm not making an argument, I am genuinely asking a question. Why go to all the trouble of crafting these continents that he didn't ever write about, except for a few hundred words in a novel where they supported the bad guy?

He never deatiled them much beyond, nomadic tribesmen who are allied with Sauron out of hatred for Gondor.  Throw in some insanely large elephants and a few descriptions of their clothing and you have Haradwaith and its people.

[Steelcan]

Silfren wrote...


I think it is changing, actually.  Lately I'm seeing a lot of works crop up in the fantasy genre that are markedly different. 

I haven't been reading much fantasy lately, I'll differ to your judgment.