642 réponses à ce sujet

[Steelcan]

Silfren wrote...

Gotholhorakh wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...
Okay, so... where are the heroic black characters in his other
work?

Really? Which parts of Tolkien's work do you think were conspicuously missing a black heroic character? The mythos for the English? The translations of European mythology? What?

Is every author in history racist if he or she does not not have one heroic character from every branch of humanity in their body of work? I'm curious to know how far you would take that.

Plaintiff wrote...

He just seems too proud of his imagination, if you ask me.

The above quote, in reference to Tolkien, is pretty much a classic. Well done.

Tolkien wasn't simply inspired from earlier works, is the thing.  He lifted some various ideas whole cloth.  His conceptions of elves and dwarves come straight from Scandinavian mythology.  Magic rings?  Broken swords?  Gold-hoarding dragons?  The list goes on.  There's also Gandalf, otherwise known as the Norse God, Odin.  Beowulf, Arthurian tales, the Volsung Saga

A lot could be said about Tolkien's works, but original ain't one of them.  He wrote well, but let's not pretend he was the first and everyone after him was the copycat.  Tolkien himself partook in the tradition of borrowing ideas shamelessly.

As I recall this was intentional.  He wanted to create a national mythology for England, so he borrowed mythology from other cultures and patched it together.

[The Hierophant]

On topic - Regarding the CC, I'd like to see hairstyles for coarse curly, and wavy hair. I'll withold any judgement on the assumed lack of diversity as the revamped Chasind, Avvar, Rivaini have yet to make an appearance, while Thedas is only one continent amongst an unknown amount in the DA verse.

[Silfren]

Steelcan wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Gotholhorakh wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...
Okay, so... where are the heroic black characters in his other
work?

Really? Which parts of Tolkien's work do you think were conspicuously missing a black heroic character? The mythos for the English? The translations of European mythology? What?

Is every author in history racist if he or she does not not have one heroic character from every branch of humanity in their body of work? I'm curious to know how far you would take that.

Plaintiff wrote...

He just seems too proud of his imagination, if you ask me.

The above quote, in reference to Tolkien, is pretty much a classic. Well done.

Tolkien wasn't simply inspired from earlier works, is the thing.  He lifted some various ideas whole cloth.  His conceptions of elves and dwarves come straight from Scandinavian mythology.  Magic rings?  Broken swords?  Gold-hoarding dragons?  The list goes on.  There's also Gandalf, otherwise known as the Norse God, Odin.  Beowulf, Arthurian tales, the Volsung Saga

A lot could be said about Tolkien's works, but original ain't one of them.  He wrote well, but let's not pretend he was the first and everyone after him was the copycat.  Tolkien himself partook in the tradition of borrowing ideas shamelessly.

As I recall this was intentional.  He wanted to create a national mythology for England, so he borrowed mythology from other cultures and patched it together.

It's usually intentional.  You can't accidentally steal the idea of a magical ring if you're familiar with the prior stories dealing with it, as Tolkien absolutely was.  The problem is not that Tolkien happily stole ideas, but that people apparently think he's some sort of infallible God of Literature, rather than one human being in a long line of human beings who contributed great stories to literature.

[Ollys]

Plaintiff wrote...

Okay, so... where are the heroic black characters in his other work? Or do all his novels deal only with the West, and never the East or South? And if that's the case, then why did he feel the need to include them at all? Simply to say "Hey, I invented all these other continents in my mind as well!" ?

 
By the way - lol story. Most well sold, popular and recognized (and hated odcourse) russian fantasy author used non-existing of copireted-laws and basically write fanfic that was relized by couple of biggest book poblishers in coutry and make him enormous rich.
Basically, he wrote story about Boromir bastard who find nazgul rings, united people of Umbar and Harad with orcs liberated west by slauthered every elf in Middle Earth, cuz light was evil and make truly communistic society of equal nation of east.

So when you have butthurt from muh-racism and injustice then change it youself. 

Modifié par Ollys, 01 juillet 2013 - 09:41 .

[Rawgrim]

Silfren wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Gotholhorakh wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...
Okay, so... where are the heroic black characters in his other
work?

Really? Which parts of Tolkien's work do you think were conspicuously missing a black heroic character? The mythos for the English? The translations of European mythology? What?

Is every author in history racist if he or she does not not have one heroic character from every branch of humanity in their body of work? I'm curious to know how far you would take that.

Plaintiff wrote...

He just seems too proud of his imagination, if you ask me.

The above quote, in reference to Tolkien, is pretty much a classic. Well done.

Tolkien wasn't simply inspired from earlier works, is the thing.  He lifted some various ideas whole cloth.  His conceptions of elves and dwarves come straight from Scandinavian mythology.  Magic rings?  Broken swords?  Gold-hoarding dragons?  The list goes on.  There's also Gandalf, otherwise known as the Norse God, Odin.  Beowulf, Arthurian tales, the Volsung Saga

A lot could be said about Tolkien's works, but original ain't one of them.  He wrote well, but let's not pretend he was the first and everyone after him was the copycat.  Tolkien himself partook in the tradition of borrowing ideas shamelessly.

As I recall this was intentional.  He wanted to create a national mythology for England, so he borrowed mythology from other cultures and patched it together.

It's usually intentional.  You can't accidentally steal the idea of a magical ring if you're familiar with the prior stories dealing with it, as Tolkien absolutely was.  The problem is not that Tolkien happily stole ideas, but that people apparently think he's some sort of infallible God of Literature, rather than one human being in a long line of human beings who contributed great stories to literature.

I think its more about him being hailed for the whole work, not just the story. Coming up with a new language, a whole rich history of the setting, and stuff like that. No other author had done that before. Not sure if anyone else has to this day. I can`t think of anyone that has created a new language in such detail anyway.

[BouncyFrag]

For those who don't feel like reading all the posts here:

[Steelcan]

Morocco Mole wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

I think Tolkien freaking sucks

This is probably the worst opinion I have ever seen on BSN

I can't remember if it was here or not, but I recall someone saying slavery wasn't that bad.

[Gotholhorakh]

Filament wrote...

Gotholhorakh wrote...

Filament wrote...

Gotholhorakh wrote...

Is it really? Care to expand on that?

That you're scared ****less of a label that's not nearly on the level of eternal social damnation that you seem to think it implies, as it would if you labeled someone a child molester.

Wow, that's pretty impressively stupid.

And in denial, evidently. You're the one who compared it to child molestation, not me.

I figured that news would be hard to swallow though, just like homophobes particularly hate the implication of the "phobe" part in that word.

Ah, I'm in denial. Now then, think for a second about exactly what you've based your shrewd deductions on, and how silly they consequently are

Morocco Mole wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

I think Tolkien freaking sucks

This is probably the worst opinion I have ever seen on BSN

I thought "Tolkien was too proud of his imagination, if you ask me" took it to a new level of specialised wrongness, beyond the whole "Tolkien was racist" thing which has been already done there and back again a zillion times.

Modifié par Gotholhorakh, 01 juillet 2013 - 09:49 .

[Plaintiff]

Morocco Mole wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

I think Tolkien freaking sucks

This is probably the worst opinion I have ever seen on BSN

I suppose I should be flattered that you sifted through a twenty-page thread and the only thing you thought was worth posting was a personal attack against me.

[Nole]

I've seen a lot of heresy in BSN before, but this...

[Silfren]

Ollys wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Okay, so... where are the heroic black characters in his other work? Or do all his novels deal only with the West, and never the East or South? And if that's the case, then why did he feel the need to include them at all? Simply to say "Hey, I invented all these other continents in my mind as well!" ?

 
By the way - lol story. Most well sold, popular and recognized (and hated odcourse) russian fantasy author used non-existing of copireted-laws and basically write fanfic that was relized by couple of biggest book poblishers in coutry and make him enormous rich.
Basically, he wrote story about Boromir bastard who find nazgul rings, united people of Umbar and Harad with orcs liberated west by slauthered every elf in Middle Earth, cuz light was evil and make truly communistic society of equal nation of east.

So when you have butthurt from muh-racism and injustice then change it youself. 

What you're talking about is, so far as I know, a retelling of The Lord of the Rings from the point of view of the citizens of Mordor, called The Last Ringbearer, a book in the grand tradition of Wicked and other works known as parallel novels.  Unfortunately it's not available commercially in English because the Tolkien Estate does not appreciate derivative works...though it is available in English as a free PDF download, I think.

[Ollys]

Silfren wrote...

What you're talking about is, so far as I know, a retelling of The Lord of the Rings from the point of view of the citizens of Mordor, called The Last Ringbearer, a book in the grand tradition of Wicked and other works known as parallel novels.  Unfortunately it's not available commercially in English because the Tolkien Estate does not appreciate derivative works...though it is available in English as a free PDF download, I think.

no 
The Last Ringbearer are other and far less popular book. I talk about  Ring of Darkness. Actually rewriting Tolkien history with making orc and Sauron a forces of good is pretty common entertaiment in Russia, because you can publish it and Tolkin related theme give you good start, plus revisionism is common for eastern fantasy lovers, who still like fantasy, but dont like western moral in that books.

Modifié par Ollys, 01 juillet 2013 - 09:59 .

[Gotholhorakh]

Ollys wrote...
no 
The Last Ringbearer are other and far less popular book. I talk about  Ring of Darkness.
Actually rewriting Tolkien history with making orc and Sauron a forces
of good is pretty common entertaiment in Russia, because you can publish
it and Tolkin related theme give you good start, plus revisionism is
common for eastern fantasy lovers, who still like fantasy, but dont like
western moral in that books.

I have a list of this sort of orc-based fiction as long as your arm which I never seem to get around to reading - is Ring of Darkness the one you'd recommend starting with?

Filament wrote...

Gotholhorakh wrote...

Ah, I'm in denial. Now then, think for a second about exactly what you've based your shrewd deductions on, and how silly they consequently are

Hmm, it seems the only tactic in your playbook is asserting how self-evident all of your opinions are while being insufferably condescending. Well, ok. :innocent:

I don't have tactics or a playbook. You're the one who thinks you have people "down pat" on the basis of - well actually not knowing anything relevant, ******.

Modifié par Gotholhorakh, 01 juillet 2013 - 10:02 .

[Silfren]

Ollys wrote...

Silfren wrote...

What you're talking about is, so far as I know, a retelling of The Lord of the Rings from the point of view of the citizens of Mordor, called The Last Ringbearer, a book in the grand tradition of Wicked and other works known as parallel novels.  Unfortunately it's not available commercially in English because the Tolkien Estate does not appreciate derivative works...though it is available in English as a free PDF download, I think.

no 
The Last Ringbearer are other and far less popular book. I talk about  Ring of Darkness. Actually rewriting Tolkien history with making orc and Sauron a forces of good is pretty common entertaiment in Russia, because you can publish it and Tolkin related theme give you good start, plus revisionism is common for eastern fantasy lovers, who still like fantasy, but dont like western moral in that books.

Wrong again, unless there's two Russian stories by that title.  Ring of Darkness is set 300 years after The Lord of the Rings.

Modifié par Silfren, 01 juillet 2013 - 10:01 .

[Ollys]

Silfren wrote...

Wrong again, unless there's two Russian stories by that title.  Ring of Darkness is set 300 years after The Lord of the Rings.

Yes, i talk about that book. Its about how 300 years after Olmer, grand-grand-grand basterdson of Boromir, find rings and about chuck norrisque hobbit grandson of Merry who act like Commander Sheppard.

Modifié par Ollys, 01 juillet 2013 - 10:06 .

[Silfren]

Ollys wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Wrong again, unless there's two Russian stories by that title.  Ring of Darkness is set 300 years after The Lord of the Rings.

Yes, i talk about that book. Its about how 300 years after Olmer, grand-grand-grand basterdson of Boromir, find rings and about chuck norrisque hobbit grandson of Merry who act like Commander Sheppard.

The synopses I've found of the series don't at all indicate that this is a retelling of Tolkien's work to make Sauron a hero and his Mordor armies the good guys. 

[Ollys]

Silfren wrote...

The synopses I've found of the series don't at all indicate that this is a retelling of Tolkien's work to make Sauron a hero and his Mordor armies the good guys.  

 
They dont good in high-fantasy way, but like synopsis of 3th book on same site say "light is more merciless and more dangerous than the darkness, and suddenly it appears like the Defenders of Light threaten Middle-earth with an inevitable downfall."

[Gotholhorakh]

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

 I think diversity is good where it makes sense but making say the Couslands into Asian people or black people just to accomodate player ethnic identity makes 0 sense IMO.  I'm not especially surprised or alarmed that a setting largely inspired by medival Europe is full of white people.  Just like I wasn't surprised or alarmed that JE was full of Asian people.  

Indeed - while choice is basically always good in an RPG (if well-implemented) I tend to just take the setting as-is. It's not suspension of disbelief if you're critiquing how the written world is comprised, it should just be "this is reality, this is how it is, not how it should be".

[Silfren]

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

 I think diversity is good where it makes sense but making say the Couslands into Asian people or black people just to accomodate player ethnic identity makes 0 sense IMO.  I'm not especially surprised or alarmed that a setting largely inspired by medival Europe is full of white people.  Just like I wasn't surprised or alarmed that JE was full of Asian people.  

It isn't full of white people, it is damn near exclusively white people.  But, once again, Thedas ain't Europe, medieval or otherwise. 

[Ashelsu]

Silfren, what do you think of Jade Empire then? Everybody is one (asian) race, the only person from another race is pictured as a caricature. Does it bother you?