642 réponses à ce sujet

[Paul E Dangerously]

Rawgrim wrote...
Yes. But I remembered it because a dev said it. I don`t remember where, but it was on the board somewhere. Not long after DA2 came out. They wanted to keep the two continents completely separate, I belive.

Besides, I can't even begin to guess how you'd make DA's cosmology and setting match up with Jade Empire's. There's just a lot that wouldn't mesh.

Modifié par Sopa de Gato, 01 juillet 2013 - 10:45 .

[Ashelsu]

What if sir Roderick is a qunari? (joke)
We've seen only a small part of Thedas, nothing is certain.

[Rawgrim]

Sopa de Gato wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...
Yes. But I remembered it because a dev said it. I don`t remember where, but it was on the board somewhere. Not long after DA2 came out. They wanted to keep the two continents completely separate, I belive.

Besides, I can't even begin to guess how you'd make DA's cosmology and setting match up with Jade Empire's. There's just a lot that wouldn't mesh.

Absolutely. No clue how they think it would mix. All i am saying is that a dev said it.

[Gotholhorakh]

Plaintiff wrote...

Gotholhorakh wrote...
Necessary? Fiction is not utilitarian and it must not be subject to justification (otherwise we destroy it).

Nonsense, the process of writing fiction is very utilitarian. Writers are expected to be reflexive in their approach to their work. Publishers, editors, reviewers and readers will question and criticise all aspects of the story, and that is their right to do so. If a line, scene, chapter or character is deemed unnecessary, it will be cut, usually to the story's benefit.

The writer includes it for whatever reason they want without explanation unless they want to, and consequently we get real, from the heart fiction rather than regulated fiction that meets other people's criteria (who decides on what those are).

That is an adorable sentiment.

Fiction is regulated, by publishers. I can promise you with absolute certainty that anything that went through conventional publishing channels underwent a strenuous editting process. You will not find "real, from the heart" fiction in any bookstore.

The only way you'll find that is by deliberately seeking out self-published works. Most of them are completely awful, of course (there are a few gems, like the Wool anthology by Hugh Howey), but they're "real" and "from the heart".

We are each of us free to write fiction that meets our own desired brief.

You have the right, certainly. You also have the right for your work to suck and be terrible, and readers have the right to question your narrative choices.

And if your "desired brief" is "worlds that have only white people", I have the right to wonder why that is. You aren't obligated to tell me, of course, but I have the right to formulate my own theories.

I am well aware of the relationship between publishers, editors and writers. Nonetheless, it is not the case that we as societies can afford to demand political justifications for every aspect of their work and in fact what we have traditionally had falls orders of magnitude short of that.

My desired brief is not really a question here - I am of the opinion that my "brief" is not in general terms what the writing should be held up to unless there is some issue of quality or playability (eg: something that makes it really hard to suspend disbelief)

[Rawgrim]

Filament wrote...

You're probably confusing a dev saying it with fan discussion on the forums just like you confused a dev saying it with fan discussion in the wiki.

If a dev actually said it, I'm positive it would be Known. It is not. You're the only one who "knows" this. So it didn't happen.

At best, what they said was tongue-in-cheek or later retracted. At best. But I highly doubt it was ever said by a dev in any context.

I found the wiki bit 1 minute before posting it here. I was looking for the actual quote.

I think the thread where a dev said it it, was about the DA world. Whats east, west and south of Thedas. something like that.

[Silfren]

Ollys wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Ashelsu wrote...

Silfren, what do you think of Jade Empire then? Everybody is one (asian) race, the only person from another race is pictured as a caricature. Does it bother you?

Never played Jade Empire and know next to nothing about it.  But, and I know that this is going to go over your head, by featuring all Asian people, Jade Empire is NOT yet another example of entertainment that assumes only white people exist or matter. 

So you cares when opressed black people cant play by they ethnic group in world inspired by white european medieval with knights, mages and stuff, but not cares by opressed white people cant play by they ethnic group in world inspired by asian oriental east with kung-foo and stuff, even if they want to ropeplay someone like this?

https://encrypted-tb...M6Zsa_MII1AjfcU

As I said, I knew you wouldn't get it.  And you don't.

[The Hierophant]

From what i read, the debate for or against the introduction of other ethnic groups boils down to the writers being consistent with DA's lore. Outside of the Qunari, Thedosians have yet to discover seafaring routes that'll allow them to establish contact with other continents, meaning that Thedas is an isolated continent. It would only make sense for other ethnic groups to be introduced to Thedas as foreign explorers or invaders, but even that's debatable in regards to it's execution.

Modifié par The Hierophant, 02 juillet 2013 - 12:06 .

[Silfren]

Gotholhorakh wrote...
The writer includes it for whatever reason they want without explanation unless they want to, and consequently we get real, from the heart fiction rather than regulated fiction that meets other people's criteria (who decides on what those are).

The hilarious thing being that when people DO create truly multicultural worlds with diverse human populations, they're not praised for providing "real, from the heart" fiction, but instead accused of pandering and of pushing political agendas.

[daaaav]

Gotholhorakh wrote...

Silfren wrote...

I wonder where all the "But this is the setting Bioware established" people were during the arguments that having all-bisexual people is unrealistic?

Probably somewhere far away, not caring, or joining in because that very "this is the setting Bioware established" suspension of disbelief was affected for them by everyone being playersexual.

Must object to this somewhat broad generalisation... 

Depends what your asking for really. If your asking for the developers to cast aside everything anthropology and biology have tought us about the origin and propogation of the human species by arbitrarily diffusing the population of Thedas with ethnic diversity, then yes. I will argue instead for:

A greater ethnic and cultural diversity incorporated into a range of ethnically distinct and consmopolitan societies that scorn the use of crude stereotypes. Why would anyone be against that?

Modifié par daaaav, 02 juillet 2013 - 12:04 .

[Ollys]

Silfren wrote...

Gotholhorakh wrote...
The writer includes it for whatever reason they want without explanation unless they want to, and consequently we get real, from the heart fiction rather than regulated fiction that meets other people's criteria (who decides on what those are).

The hilarious thing being that when people DO create truly multicultural worlds with diverse human populations, they're not praised for providing "real, from the heart" fiction, but instead accused of pandering and of pushing political agendas.

 
World must be really big for being multicultural. Big world prevent blending, so different phenotipos exist and not melting into one race, it can be not european if you want so, but from point of common sence they must be visible similatiry.
They alot of ethic and cultural group in China, but they look same for you and me. Because they all mixed for long history of China. It hard to see difference between frank and roman in modern Europe, because european melting pot mixing all european ethic same like it happens in other regions. But you see difference between asiand and europeans, because they are isolated from each others.
Thedas is like what? 8 counties and 20-30 cities and you want to it look like modern America with migrants from all over the world with no history? Bioware dont provide it from heart, they just want minority crowd and they money even if cost inner logic of they world.

[Il Divo]

Gotholhorakh wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Gotholhorakh wrote...
Necessary? Fiction is not utilitarian and it must not be subject to justification (otherwise we destroy it).

Nonsense, the process of writing fiction is very utilitarian. Writers are expected to be reflexive in their approach to their work. Publishers, editors, reviewers and readers will question and criticise all aspects of the story, and that is their right to do so. If a line, scene, chapter or character is deemed unnecessary, it will be cut, usually to the story's benefit.

The writer includes it for whatever reason they want without explanation unless they want to, and consequently we get real, from the heart fiction rather than regulated fiction that meets other people's criteria (who decides on what those are).

That is an adorable sentiment.

Fiction is regulated, by publishers. I can promise you with absolute certainty that anything that went through conventional publishing channels underwent a strenuous editting process. You will not find "real, from the heart" fiction in any bookstore.

The only way you'll find that is by deliberately seeking out self-published works. Most of them are completely awful, of course (there are a few gems, like the Wool anthology by Hugh Howey), but they're "real" and "from the heart".

We are each of us free to write fiction that meets our own desired brief.

You have the right, certainly. You also have the right for your work to suck and be terrible, and readers have the right to question your narrative choices.

And if your "desired brief" is "worlds that have only white people", I have the right to wonder why that is. You aren't obligated to tell me, of course, but I have the right to formulate my own theories.

I am well aware of the relationship between publishers, editors and writers. Nonetheless, it is not the case that we as societies can afford to demand political justifications for every aspect of their work and in fact what we have traditionally had falls orders of magnitude short of that.

My desired brief is not really a question here - I am of the opinion that my "brief" is not in general terms what the writing should be held up to unless there is some issue of quality or playability (eg: something that makes it really hard to suspend disbelief)

Going to agree with this. The implication otherwise seems to be that if writers aren't employing a quota system into their works, they've magically done something wrong (outside of historical pieces). I don't think writers everywhere should be worried first and foremost about including X amount of character type because audiences will throw a fit otherwise.

[LobselVith8]

Ollys wrote...

Silfren wrote...

The hilarious thing being that when people DO create truly multicultural worlds with diverse human populations, they're not praised for providing "real, from the heart" fiction, but instead accused of pandering and of pushing political agendas. 

World must be really big for being multicultural. Big world prevent blending, so different phenotipos exist and not melting into one race, it can be not european if you want so, but from point of common sence they must be visible similatiry.

A multicultural population? This issue has been brought up in earlier threads, where people wondered by a port city like Kirkwall lacked diversity despite being a prominent trading hub for this part of Thedas, especially when there was diversity in places like this in our own history.

Ollys wrote...

They alot of ethic and cultural group in China, but they look same for you and me. Because they all mixed for long history of China. It hard to see difference between frank and roman in modern Europe, because european melting pot mixing all european ethic same like it happens in other regions. But you see difference between asiand and europeans, because they are isolated from each others.

There are differences among people who live in a specific region like China. Your statement makes it seem as though you think people in a specific region are little more than clones of one another.

Ollys wrote...

Thedas is like what? 8 counties and 20-30 cities and you want to it look like modern America with migrants from all over the world with no history? Bioware dont provide it from heart, they just want minority crowd and they money even if cost inner logic of they world. 

This comment is disingenious and factually inaccurate since diversity didn't begin with "modern America", so I don't see how any "inner logic" is lost by having diversity among the people living across the continent.

[Ollys]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Ollys wrote...

Silfren wrote...

The hilarious thing being that when people DO create truly multicultural worlds with diverse human populations, they're not praised for providing "real, from the heart" fiction, but instead accused of pandering and of pushing political agendas. 

World must be really big for being multicultural. Big world prevent blending, so different phenotipos exist and not melting into one race, it can be not european if you want so, but from point of common sence they must be visible similatiry.

A multicultural population? This issue has been brought up in earlier threads, where people wondered by a port city like Kirkwall lacked diversity despite being a prominent trading hub for this part of Thedas, especially when there was diversity in places like this in our own history.

Ollys wrote...

They alot of ethic and cultural group in China, but they look same for you and me. Because they all mixed for long history of China. It hard to see difference between frank and roman in modern Europe, because european melting pot mixing all european ethic same like it happens in other regions. But you see difference between asiand and europeans, because they are isolated from each others.

There are differences among people who live in a specific region like China. Your statement makes it seem as though you think people in a specific region are little more than clones of one another.

Ollys wrote...

Thedas is like what? 8 counties and 20-30 cities and you want to it look like modern America with migrants from all over the world with no history? Bioware dont provide it from heart, they just want minority crowd and they money even if cost inner logic of they world. 

This comment is disingenious and factually inaccurate since diversity didn't begin with "modern America", so I don't see how any "inner logic" is lost by having diversity among the people living across the continent.

 
Whole continent was part of one empire, there is almost to natural boundaries, its pretty small in size.
Where is your diversed people came from? As i say, it not america with european settlers, black slaves and natives. They all like close back by back and dont lose specific racial features. Yes - people of isolated region can and must look different. Man from carcari wilds and north teventer jungle has not many contacts with other world, so they can keep they diversity.
But same black and asiand and european people, even if they was a tribes that was united into some Orleas, must already mix into one stabilized and tipical orlean-look people - not metter not exacly that people look like.  And civilized coutries, that not so fat away from each others already must form a ethic tipical for they region - Thedas.

[daaaav]

LobselVith8 wrote...


This comment is disingenious and factually inaccurate since diversity didn't begin with "modern America", so I don't see how any "inner logic" is lost by having diversity among the people living across the continent.

Hold on there old boy... He was using modern America as an example of a culturaly and ethnically diverse society with a fascinating (if horrible in parts) history of how that came to be. Not the first such society. You are correct in pointing out that many such societies have existed in our history (Rome, Damascus, Singapore etc) but to include such a place in Thedas WITHOUT exploring it's origin would be such a missed opportunity.

[Silfren]

daaaav wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...


This comment is disingenious and factually inaccurate since diversity didn't begin with "modern America", so I don't see how any "inner logic" is lost by having diversity among the people living across the continent.

Hold on there old boy... He was using modern America as an example of a culturaly and ethnically diverse society with a fascinating (if horrible in parts) history of how that came to be. Not the first such society. You are correct in pointing out that many such societies have existed in our history (Rome, Damascus, Singapore etc) but to include such a place in Thedas WITHOUT exploring it's origin would be such a missed opportunity.

Not quite.  They brought up Amerca in the first place by accusing me of wanting Thedas to be America.  Because we all know that no other place in history was ever multicultural or multi-ethnic, oh yeah. 

[Ollys]

Silfren wrote...

Not quite.  They brought up Amerca in the first place by accusing me of wanting Thedas to be America.  Because we all know that no other place in history was ever multicultural or multi-ethnic, oh yeah. 

Check Alexander Duma that was posting around 10 pages ago. Even if theorie of his black ancestors is true - his line lose if ethic identity, cuz they was no other black around for making black kids. His blood was melted in French melting pot, generation after generation minority mixing and look closer and closer to majority.
Same of Rome - Rome conquere various european tribes, mixing they for centures, no it basically hard to differ one european from other, they special ethic features was erased make them one causacian race.

[Plaintiff]

Il Divo wrote...
Going to agree with this. The implication otherwise seems to be that if writers aren't employing a quota system into their works, they've magically done something wrong (outside of historical pieces). I don't think writers everywhere should be worried first and foremost about including X amount of character type because audiences will throw a fit otherwise.

Well, then it's a good thing nobody suggested that, isn't it.

Writers should be aware of the messages that their work puts out there, which the audience is going to pick up on. That is just commonsense. They aren't required to have self-awareness, no, but if they don't want to think about the messages they're broadcasting, then they have no right to complain if those messages turn out to be offensive.

Saying "I just didn't think about it" is not an adequate defense. It's not a defense at all. The thoughtlessness of writers is part of the problem.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 02 juillet 2013 - 12:39 .

[Ollys]

Silfren wrote

Not quite.  They brought up Amerca in the first place by accusing me of wanting Thedas to be America.  Because we all know that no other place in history was ever multicultural or multi-ethnic, oh yeah. 

If world is multicultural it talk about one or other option: they world is to young - like America with migrants and Rome where ambition leader force many tribes under one leadership. They and conquered not so time ago and still is not mixing, because no time for that. Other - world is big and different ethics not melting cuz they dont meet each others.

Modifié par Ollys, 02 juillet 2013 - 12:42 .

[LobselVith8]

Ollys wrote...

Whole continent was part of one empire, there is almost to natural boundaries, its pretty small in size.

Most of Thedas was part of one empire - Tevinter - that enslaved people from all over. Kirkwall, for example, had slaves when it was controlled by Tevinter, who brought different slaves from different areas to work in this specific region. Thedas also has travellers, traders, diplomats, pirates, many different people who fled the Fifth Blight, and much more. Now we have templars and mages from different areas who are likely to come together. I see nothing to prohibit diversity in the narrative.

Ollys wrote...

Where is your diversed people came from? As i say, it not america with european settlers, black slaves and natives. They all like close back by back and dont lose specific racial features. Yes - people of isolated region can and must look different. Man from carcari wilds and north teventer jungle has not many contacts with other world, so they can keep they diversity.

Where? Perhaps the nation of Antiva, the kingdom of Rivain, the Chasind Wilders or the Avvar tribes. Perhaps for the same reason that we have brown and black elves, or a black Orlesian like Hubert, even though they were few and far in-between. There were solid reasons to see diversity in Denerim, there were a plethora of reasons to see diversity in a trading hub like Kirkwall, and I hope we get to see diversity in Inquisition. I also don't think anyone here who advocates more diversity has confused Thedas with the States.

Ollys wrote...

But same black and asiand and european people, even if they was a tribes that was united into some Orleas, must already mix into one stabilized and tipical orlean-look people - not metter not exacly that people look like.  And civilized coutries, that not so fat away from each others already must form a ethic tipical for they region - Thedas. 

There's nothing to limit diversity, especially in a world with magic, spirits, mages, templars, dragons, and beings like Flemeth. I honestly don't see why anyone should have to argue for more diversity. Do I need to include real world examples where diversity transpired outside of the States? Because it really doesn't matter in the context of a fictional world that bends to the imagination of the developers who shape it.

Ultimately, it boils down to the simple fact that I don't see the problem with players, like me, who want to see themselves reflected in a story that they care about. I hate the mindset of some people in this thread who think it would be better to exclude people like us from seeing people like ourselves in the narrative.

[Silfren]

Ollys wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Not quite.  They brought up Amerca in the first place by accusing me of wanting Thedas to be America.  Because we all know that no other place in history was ever multicultural or multi-ethnic, oh yeah. 

Check Alexander Duma that was posting around 10 pages ago. Even if theorie of his black ancestors is true - his line lose if ethic identity, cuz they was no other black around for making black kids. His blood was melted in French melting pot, generation after generation minority mixing and look closer and closer to majority.
Same of Rome - Rome conquere various european tribes, mixing they for centures, no it basically hard to differ one european from other, they special ethic features was erased make them one causacian race.

Dude, there's no "theory" about his ancestry, it's documented fact.  And whatever happened to his "line" is of no consequence to this discussion.  The point was made that Alexandre Dumas was black, and that's it.  As for the rest of it, I have no idea what the hell the point is that you're trying to make.

Modifié par Silfren, 02 juillet 2013 - 12:48 .

[In Exile]

Personally, I think we should at the very least eliminate the very racist ideas that underpin fantasy "races". I'm also of the view that basing any period off the history and architecture of a particular human era - e.g. Western Europe - has nothing to do with portraying - by our modern standards - a very diverse group in appearance.

If we're going to have something as silly as a fantasy world were each "race" is effectively a distinct culture, then there's no reason that within that culture, everyone can't reflect the diversity of humanity today.

[Nightdragon8]

you know... from all this talk, it seems the darkspawn are the least raceist of everyone, They will eat and kill every race color and not care.

[Ollys]

Silfren wrote...

Dude, there's no "theory" about his ancestry, it's documented fact.  And whatever happened to his "line" is of no consequence to this discussion.  The point was made that Alexandre Dumas was black, and that's it.  As for the rest of it, I have no idea what the hell the point is that you're trying to make.

 
 
its pretty consequence to discussion actually, that show how genetic work.
This is Ibrahim Hannibal, he was example of ethic diversity in predominantly cascasian society. 

and his grandson Alexander Pushkin.
 
and grang-grand-granddaughter.


This is melting pot in action. If humans are not isolated from each otherts then they are mixing and became look alike.

Modifié par Ollys, 02 juillet 2013 - 01:02 .