642 réponses à ce sujet

[In Exile]

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...
Do people really just want PCs and NPCs with a wider range of skin tones though?  It seems to go deeper than that. 

There are lots of ways to deal with race and identity in terms of crafting a positive message, and people have different views on that. I think separate the idea that apperance and culture are necessarily tied is an important thing in fantasy and media, but not everyone agrees. 

[In Exile]

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

I agree with this sentiment.  I'm just wondering if a lot of people requesting this content really just want a PC and NPCs that *look* like them or do they also want how they look to have in game relevance or consequences?

I think that it's a laudable goal to have the NPCs look like and the PC potentially look like anything we could. 

[Spatchmo]

They are saving Asian features for the Dragon Age / Jade Empire crossover.

[Thiefy]

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

In Exile wrote...

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...
Do people really just want PCs and NPCs with a wider range of skin tones though?  It seems to go deeper than that. 

There are lots of ways to deal with race and identity in terms of crafting a positive message, and people have different views on that. I think separate the idea that apperance and culture are necessarily tied is an important thing in fantasy and media, but not everyone agrees. 

I agree with this sentiment.  I'm just wondering if a lot of people requesting this content really just want a PC and NPCs that *look* like them or do they also want how they look to have in game relevance or consequences?

It probably is just a personal quandary because I could care less if a PC is male or female, black or white, gay or straight unless that also changes something in the game world.  For me getting to play as a female PC doesn't make me feel any more "female" in game unless it actually matters in game somehow that I'm female through dialog or romance or whatever. 

 
It's been a handful of hours as I went to help my friend clean her place and there's more than 10 pages worth of replies since my last one, so I'm lost in what has been said since then, but....

No. The original poster and people who were backing him we not requesting some special snowflake status for PoC. They just asked for better visibility and better customization options.

That's all.

The rest of this thread some how went into some of these tangents (more than once) 1)Medeival Europe only had white people 2)PoC should only exsist if there is a special lore concerning why they exsist 3)adding PoC into the game is racist against whites 4)Lord of the Rings/Tolkein 5)privilage and the definition of racism 6)phenotypes, genetics and how they do or do not spread; to name a few. 

If you are referring to #2, there were several people saying adding PoC (or at least Asians as Black people and Latinos are acceptable for some posters) was lore breaking so if Bioware were to add them, they need to make a reason for them in game. A lot of responses to that, my own included, was that the idea was silly because Mr. Gaider already commented that the Dragon Age world was not homogeneous, that it was hypocritical that no other ethinicities needed a "special background" story and that a world that had complete white homogeny would be weird in of itself. 

So no,  the people who WANT more diversity are not asking for any specialness to go with it - it's actually the otherside saying the only way we should be allowed in at all is if we somehow became a magical unicorn or something since we basically aren't the norm.

[In Exile]

Thief-of-Hearts wrote...
If you are referring to #2, there were several people saying adding PoC (or at least Asians as Black people and Latinos are acceptable for some posters) was lore breaking so if Bioware were to add them, they need to make a reason for them in game. A lot of responses to that, my own included, was that the idea was silly because Mr. Gaider already commented that the Dragon Age world was not homogeneous, that it was hypocritical that no other ethinicities needed a "special background" story and that a world that had complete white homogeny would be weird in of itself. 

So no,  the people who WANT more diversity are not asking for any specialness to go with it - it's actually the otherside saying the only way we should be allowed in at all is if we somehow became a magical unicorn or something since we basically aren't the norm.

Not that I make it my business what other posters say, but I understood the question/comment you're addressing to have been intending to say something more like:

"Is the end goal to have NPCs that look diverse, but are cultural homogenous? Or is the end-goal rather to have people that both look diverse and in some sense reflect a culture associated with that physical apperance IRL? Or something else, in between?"

Of course, when I phrase it this way, it becomes obvious why the request couldn't be the second question. But I thought I should try and clarify this, to avoid leading the thread into a more incendiary direction. 

[GungFooHustler]

It's just a secular part of Europe for these Human Kingdoms!! Know your Theology and European history! The Chantry is the Catholic Church and the Mages are the Protestants. Read about the Holy Tribunal of the Inquisition, and the Protestant Reformation. It's all so thinly veiled!!! If the title of the new game hasn't clued you in yet, you really need to read a book. Or watch Monty Python.

The human kingdoms are clearly based off Medieval Europe, but a specific part of Medieval Europe, where there were Knights in shining armor, Kings and Queens, bards and wizards (stories anyhow) and kingdoms that at one time swore loyalty to the Pope. These are archetypes from the kingdoms in Britain, France, Spain, Germany, and the Holy Roman Empire. The Chantry is clearly based loosely on the Catholic Church around the time of the beginning of the Holy Tribunals of Inquisition and the Protestant Reformation. Orlais is obviously France, Ferelden is probably Britain, and I would assume Tevinter is Germany. I say that because of the beginning of the Protestant reformation in Germany. The mages over throwing the Chantry in Tevinter is clearly based on that.  But possibly it represents England and the Church of England.

Europe had diversity, but was always secular. The Moors were dark skinned, coming from North Africa. They were settled and controlled areas of the Iberian Peninsula (Spain and Portugal). To me the Raivanis, like Isabela, seemed to be characterized of Moorish descent, but idk maybe she's supposed to be more Gypsy (Romani). But the Moors were Muslim, so there wouldn't have been large populations of them in kingdoms that swore loyalty to the Vatican or "Chantry."

This next game will be a good chance to have a new group of people, or maybe even more groups. The Moors had a large Kingdom in North Africa and the Iberian Peninsula. Using them as an archetype would be a good addition to the game. And it would bring more diversity. Who know? Maybe that's what Raivani was always intended to be.

I think it's nice to have a character that looks like yourself, but in this case I think it should be seen like when we older folks played Jade Empire.  Way back on the REAL XBOX One.  Everybody was Asian.  That was the setting.

Modifié par GungFooHustler, 02 juillet 2013 - 05:06 .

[Hey]

completely agree, op

[daaaav]

Thief-of-Hearts wrote...


So no,  the people who WANT more diversity are not asking for any specialness to go with it - it's actually the otherside saying the only way we should be allowed in at all is if we somehow became a magical unicorn or something since we basically aren't the norm.

What do you mean specialness? Specialness beyond acknowledgement that sometime in the past groups of humans diversified geographically causing them to exhibit slightly different physical differences as well as a rich variety of cultural differences? 

There is no reason why in game fantasy cultures and peoples cannot draw inspiration from real world cultures without propogating all the associated negative stereotypes. 

[Star fury]

Fascinating read, range of topics is staggering, from black knights in medieval England to Russian fantasy writers.

[nightscrawl]

TommyServo wrote...

TexasToast712 wrote...

They definitely arent black or asian. Isabela is also white as snow in DAO.

This is Isabela's headmorph from DAO. Looks like the same character rendered in a different engine, to me.

The lighting in the Pearl messes with your eyes. You're not alone.

I have never thought that DAO Isabela in The Pearl looked remotely white. If asked I might have said she was "bright skinned," which is sort of a light reddish-brownish color. Google pics of former NAACP chairman Julian Bond to see what I mean.

At any rate, I don't understand the comments I've seen here saying that everyone in in Dragon Age is white. There are several dark skinned NPCs. There are more throughout DAO, but I think that is because we go to a wider variety of locations in that game. Lothering especially, with its multitudinous refugees, has quite a mix of people.

[Nightdragon8]

nightscrawl wrote...

TommyServo wrote...

TexasToast712 wrote...

They definitely arent black or asian. Isabela is also white as snow in DAO.

This is Isabela's headmorph from DAO. Looks like the same character rendered in a different engine, to me.

The lighting in the Pearl messes with your eyes. You're not alone.

I have never thought that DAO Isabela in The Pearl looked remotely white. If asked I might have said she was "bright skinned," which is sort of a light reddish-brownish color. Google pics of former NAACP chairman Julian Bond to see what I mean.

At any rate, I don't understand the comments I've seen here saying that everyone in in Dragon Age is white. There are several dark skinned NPCs. There are more throughout DAO, but I think that is because we go to a wider variety of locations in that game. Lothering especially, with its multitudinous refugees, has quite a mix of people.

thats what I don't get either....

and if you bring up DA2. honestly we can only go to what... 4 locations in the "City" and we see the same number of PCs over and over again.... DA isn't known to show how a "real" city is. but if they where to, they would need to give the PC noclip in order for it to be anything playable. Plus it would have more than likly melted the Xbox LOL

[What a Succulent Ass]

BioWareMod02 wrote...

Hey all. I am glad to see that this thread has veered way from the rather...aggressive...tone it had earlier, and it would really be appreciated if it stays that way.

YOU MEAN TO TELL ME YOU'RE A REAL BOY?

[Jonata]

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

Do people really just want PCs and NPCs with a wider range of skin tones though?  It seems to go deeper than that. 

Obviously there's more than that. Personally, my main request would be a Character Creator able to reproduce the different facial features that distinguish the different entnicities in the real world. If I want to create a character with Asain features, for example, I don't want a Caucasian character with a slightly different skin tone. 

[BouncyFrag]

Um, Bioware, hows about a comment? I'm not asking for the recipe for the secret sauce or what or what color Cassandra's small clothes are. Just a teeny tiny comment?

[Thiefy]

daaaav wrote...

Thief-of-Hearts wrote...


So no,  the people who WANT more diversity are not asking for any specialness to go with it - it's actually the otherside saying the only way we should be allowed in at all is if we somehow became a magical unicorn or something since we basically aren't the norm.

What do you mean specialness? Specialness beyond acknowledgement that sometime in the past groups of humans diversified geographically causing them to exhibit slightly different physical differences as well as a rich variety of cultural differences? 

There is no reason why in game fantasy cultures and peoples cannot draw inspiration from real world cultures without propogating all the associated negative stereotypes. 

 
I'm not actually sure what you are asking with this question. So let me clarify what I was originally trying to say.

The OP and his supporters were asking for better customizations on the character creator for ethinic features. It was also asked that NPCs show a little more diversity as well. Nothing more or less.

Nay-sayers were saying that this shouldn't be allowed because it was "lore breaking" and it would disrupt immersion in the game to suddenly have more ethinic diversity in the dragon age world (for various reasons). This is where the main bulk of the back-and-forth debate lies.

Now, some people are saying the ethnicities should only be allowed in if they had a special lore written about them to allow them into the current continuity. That's where my snarky asides came from because I think it's silly that some ethnicities need to be "explained" while others do not - it's a double standard imo.

[berelinde]

According to the devs, the new engine is capable of rendering a wider range of skin tones. The fact that they are aware of previous limitations bodes well for seeing greater inclusivity in the future.

DAI promises to include a larger geographic area, so our protagonists will encounter cultures we have only heard about before. It looks as if our travels will involve more equatorial zones, where skin tones tend to be darker, according to Mike Laidlaw's interview in the DotS bonus material. In other words, people of color are already part of the lore, not exceptions to it, and I'm looking forward to seeing how ethnic diversity looks with the new engine. I too would like to be able to make a protagonist with curly hair!

[Guns]

KC_Prototype wrote...

I always felt Dragon Age lack diversity in ethnicity. I know it's a fantasy game but still. I want more ethnic options because I am black and I like to make my characters look like me or at least be a cool representation. I feel like DA:O did a lousy job with that but I did the best I could(hence my profile pic) and with DA2 it was an improvement but still the same lack of options and limited hairstyles(there was basically two black hairstyles but one was a bald look and the other had a bad hairline). ME did an a better job with this but still had limited options until ME3 which did a great job with ethnic diverse options for Shepard. I at least like to see more ethnic hairstyles. Also, I want to see more ethnic diversity with npc's. I know Thedas is supposed to represent medieval Europe but there were some black people in Europe back then and besides, it's fantasy right? TES had the redguards, why can't Dragon Age have some type of black people. I know I am probably alone on this but hey, I want to be heard.  

PS: I don't want to start a race war, just expressing an idea and opinion

If it fits into the story sure, but they shouldn't add bunch of Nevarran if it set in Orlais, just because of "ethnic diversity." That's idiotic.

Modifié par Guns, 03 juillet 2013 - 01:59 .

[Thiefy]

Guns wrote...

If it fits into the story sure, but they shouldn't add bunch of Nevarran if it set in Orlais, just because of "ethnic diversity." That's idiotic.

 
Good thing nobody has asked for that then! 

[Guns]

Thief-of-Hearts wrote...

Guns wrote...

If it fits into the story sure, but they shouldn't add bunch of Nevarran if it set in Orlais, just because of "ethnic diversity." That's idiotic.

 
Good thing nobody has asked for that then! 

Uh did you read the OP?  That's the closest thing to black people in Thedas.

[KiwiQuiche]

Redguards for DAI.

[Thiefy]

Guns wrote...

Thief-of-Hearts wrote...

Guns wrote...

If it fits into the story sure, but they shouldn't add bunch of Nevarran if it set in Orlais, just because of "ethnic diversity." That's idiotic.

 
Good thing nobody has asked for that then! 

Uh did you read the OP?  That's the closest thing to black people in Thedas.

 
Looks like not only did someone misunderstand the question, they also didn't bother to read/skim through the thread. 

[Guns]

Thief-of-Hearts wrote...

Guns wrote...

Thief-of-Hearts wrote...

Guns wrote...

If it fits into the story sure, but they shouldn't add bunch of Nevarran if it set in Orlais, just because of "ethnic diversity." That's idiotic.

 
Good thing nobody has asked for that then! 

Uh did you read the OP?  That's the closest thing to black people in Thedas.

 
Looks like not only did someone misunderstand the question, they also didn't bother to read/skim through the thread. 

I was responding to the opening post, nothing else. I should go back and quote it in my first post to make it clearer.