642 réponses à ce sujet

[fchopin]

It would be nice if the new engine allows for more variations for Black and Asian people and also more variations for males as i could not create a good male character in previous Bioware games.

[MisanthropePrime]

Fetunche wrote...

I didn't expect to play Caucasian in jade empire and enjoyed the game,by role playing some one from there.

This is an excellent point. Jade Empire was based off China, you played Asian characters and were surrounded by Asian characters. Dragon Age is based off Europe, same logic applies.

[HiroVoid]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Ninja Stan wrote...

AngryFrozenWater, MisanthropePrime, let's try not to derail the discussion, please. Take it to private if you wish to explore the topic of racism. And manage your quote pyramids to reflect the comment you're directly responding to. They're getting unwieldy. Thank you.

The rules are changed. We cannot take this to PM without being on the FL. I pull out in that case. Thank you.

I always wondered when this issue would end up popping up.

[PinkShoes]

I dunno i never felt like there was a lack of options when it came to customering the characters skin tone but more options is never a bad thing.

I dunno about that black hair thing. Are you saying you want afros? Lol be sorta funny actually. I wonder if there is a mod for that...

[MisanthropePrime]

PinkShoes wrote...

I dunno i never felt like there was a lack of options when it came to customering the characters skin tone but more options is never a bad thing.

I dunno about that black hair thing. Are you saying you want afros? Lol be sorta funny actually. I wonder if there is a mod for that...

[snackrat]

Shepard could have that flexibility because in that setting, humans have been unified into one group, all types are found everywhere. (Its the reason they deliberately went with a European model for Sheploo rather than another American.)

However, Thedas still has a large amount of racial division. Not because of racism (which does exist, but is instead referred to dwarf/human/elf/kossith rather than regional humans) but because transport and communication is a hassle across distances and borders so people haven't moved around as much.

Antiva is a sort of Spanish/Italian cross, Rivain seems Arabic/African, Orlais is mostly French, Feraldan mostly English, dwarves mostly American - keep in mind none of these are clean cut, because they're not SUPPOSED to be direct analogues - and judging from the name the anders of the Anderfels sound German.
I don't know enough of the Imperium to make any comment on that but I think Russian/Chinese would be cool, as well as allowing a background for an asian analogue as it were.

As a result though it would be great from a player perspective to have more options (I'd prefer to avoid words like 'inclusive' because it sounds like those options are only there to please us or we'd be otherwise ostracised), but lore doesn't have a real background for it. (Circle Mage background was much more flexible, but Free Marches nobility is a little less so.)




EDIT: As far as hair goes, I agree. Games typically provide only straight hair (or slight wave) because it is a lot easier to render - just a texture of model 'sheets'. But I would LOVE more curls (both tight and lose) and have a soft spot for braids. All of those hair styles shown of in Dragon Age: Exodus... and yet most of them were just slightly different versions of the exact same thing.

Modifié par Karsciyin, 30 juin 2013 - 11:28 .

[Merc Mama]

While I'm on that subject might be good to ask for something like altered facial structures for DA:I.
My boyfriend had the problem of the faces being too long and when you put on facial hair like sideburns, for some reason the lower face just sunk in and was no longer chubby like he designed it.. I suppose Bioware was going for perfect Slavic features and never considered some of us have small, chubby faces.

[MisanthropePrime]

Merc Mama wrote...

While I'm on that subject might be good to ask for something like altered facial structures for DA:I.
My boyfriend had the problem of the faces being too long and when you put on facial hair like sideburns, for some reason the lower face just sunk in and was no longer chubby like he designed it.. I suppose Bioware was going for perfect Slavic features and never considered some of us have small, chubby faces.

When you add a beard (not "stubble", which is just a texture, but a "beard" which is a 3d mesh) I believe the chin and lips are set back to the defaults for your preset to avoid clipping. And even though the sideburns option doesn't actually cover the chin, since it adds 3d geometry to the face it snaps the chin back to the default.

[Silfren]

HiroVoid wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Ninja Stan wrote...

AngryFrozenWater, MisanthropePrime, let's try not to derail the discussion, please. Take it to private if you wish to explore the topic of racism. And manage your quote pyramids to reflect the comment you're directly responding to. They're getting unwieldy. Thank you.

The rules are changed. We cannot take this to PM without being on the FL. I pull out in that case. Thank you.

I always wondered when this issue would end up popping up.

So did I.  I'm actually surprised people didn't make the point sooner.

[Merc Mama]

MisanthropePrime wrote...

When you add a beard (not "stubble", which is just a texture, but a "beard" which is a 3d mesh) I believe the chin and lips are set back to the defaults for your preset to avoid clipping. And even though the sideburns option doesn't actually cover the chin, since it adds 3d geometry to the face it snaps the chin back to the default.

Why?! 
Having a beard don't mean you lose cheek-meat Bioware!

Modifié par Merc Mama, 01 juillet 2013 - 12:14 .

[What a Succulent Ass]

PinkShoes wrote...

I dunno about that black hair thing. Are you saying you want afros? Lol be sorta funny actually. I wonder if there is a mod for that...

You know "afro" is a hairstyle, right. And that "black hair" isn't limited to a single hairstyle.

Nan a thing funny about them.

[MisanthropePrime]

Merc Mama wrote...

MisanthropePrime wrote...

When you add a beard (not "stubble", which is just a texture, but a "beard" which is a 3d mesh) I believe the chin and lips are set back to the defaults for your preset to avoid clipping. And even though the sideburns option doesn't actually cover the chin, since it adds 3d geometry to the face it snaps the chin back to the default.

Why?! 
Having a beard don't mean you lose cheek-meat Bioware!

It's so said "cheek-meat" doesn't clip through the beard.

[Merc Mama]

MisanthropePrime wrote...

Merc Mama wrote...

Why?! 
Having a beard don't mean you lose cheek-meat Bioware!

It's so said "cheek-meat" doesn't clip through the beard.

Makes sense, just sucks though, I guess it must have been hard to extend the hair. I had the same problem with my female characters and the flat long hair that would not allow my elven ears or cheeks to phase through hair. Designs like a block I guess.

[Thiefy]

I don't understand why we need "a specific context" to include someone that's Asian (or any other ethinicity) in a video game.

It basically amounts to you need a REASON to include someone who is non-white into the game.

Seriously, I know some people aren't trying to be offensive, but have you actually taken a step back from your opinion and just tried to objectively look at it? Question why you think that way?

Bioware does seem to want to craft a fantasy world that holds some modern values while providing a facsimilie of the middle ages, which can be a little jarring at times. When reading World of Thedas I was pretty damn surprised to find that on the topic of homosexuality in Thedas it was said to be pretty much tolerated everywhere, for instance. Not that there's anything wrong with homosexuality, but that there's no prejudice against it in all of the various cultures on the continent seems a little hard to swallow. Same thing goes with wanting to promote a weird "rainbow coalition" in the middle ages. Hell, I found it weird how African Hubert the Orlesian looked and there's not even an Africa analogue in the setting.

There were actually plenty of ancient cultures that embraced homosexuality, so I don't see why that's an issue here. Aside from that, this is Bioware's world, and their story. They call the shots and if they want a world where bedroom habits aren't something people aren't shamed for, that is their perogative. It's only "jarring" and "hard to swallow" because that's your personal view.

Unless the lore supports characters from multiple ethnic groups (which it entirely could, considering the Inquisitor is going to have multiple origins), I'd rather the game not have those phenotypical features, actually. Hawke and his family having dark skin could be explained by them being in Lothering, relatively close to the wilds and potentially having Chasind ancestry, so that would be a fine way to combine ethnic pluralism and existing lore (if it didn't make Leandra dark skinned as well). But just having someone with an epicanthic fold when no group in the game is shown to have that feature, and said group has no reason to be part of the population of a given area, strikes me as a bit odd.

First of all, Hawke's family didn't even come from Lothering, they came from Kirkwall. The father and mother both fled the city, so there would be no way for them to have chasind blood unless it was a few generations back. And again, what is with this about having to explain other races? You don't ask for Bioware to explain the presences of white people, but say that someone who is Asian doesn't make sense and needs to be explained? Do you really not see how something like this might upset someone?

Why should they HAVE to explain the presences of other races? Isn't it more odd to only have one ethinicity?
Why aren't you questioning the presences of horns on Qunari and what biological purpose/advantage they have, rather than questioning the presences of a person with a single fold eyelid or almond shape eye?

For all your talk about the game relating to the real word and how things should "make more sense", you do realize that all people of different ethinicities came from ONE ethinicity and every other ethinicity just had adaptions to better suit different climates, right? So what's so hard to believe that the same wouldn't happen in the game universe?

I'm biracial, but ethinically I look Asian. I want to make a main character that looks like me, just like anyone else.  I want some other npcs to have features that favor my ethinicity as well so I don't feel like my character is out of place, just like everyone else. Saying that people like me don't make sense in the game or people with my features need to have some kind of lore explanation, as if we are some magical creature, is akin to saying we don't really belong in the game (unless someone where gracious enough to make a spot for us, bless their hearts).

We shouldn't have people looking African for the sake of being African, or Asian for the sake of being Asian, and we shouldn't have ethnicities that share those real-world populations' phenotypes be in areas that have no logical reason for them to be there. Big, cosmopolitan cities and border regions? Yes. Random small out of the way towns? No.

Why not? Why can't we have black or asian or hispanics "just because"? Why do THOSE races need to be explained, and not white people? Why is the white ethinicity the default? Even with it being the default why should that be at the exlcusion of people of color? SOME parts of Thedas are based of Medeivil Europe but that doesn't account for ALL of it. Either way, I think it's best if we let one of the Bioware staff tell us what the "lore" is and the basic geography of the world instead of using your own assumptions to tell others what is and is not appropiate for the game.

I really just can't wrap my head around your way of thinking. For the sake of arguement though, let's pretend I agree, despite this entire post. Let me ask you this, what is WRONG with people wanting more diversity? Is it really more important to make "sense" in such a stringent way than just allowing people to have small luxuries that would really make them enjoy and appreciate the game that much more?

Racial diversity and inclusion of the LGBT community may not mean much to you, but for plenty of people in means A LOT. I think it would be safe for me to say that you honestly have no idea how much these kinds of things mean to people who are not "the core demographic for video games." If you do have some inkling why these things would be important to us, then I'll ask you again, why is it more important to "make sense" (by your terms, since a lot of people have already given good reasons why inlcusion also "makes sense") rather than just "have fun"? Can this game only "be fun" by following what you think "make sense"? If you honestly say yes, then I just want to point out that it is very narrow minded.

 All for that .A Lucy Liu type character like in kill bill as a party member would be nice.

No. God, please NO. I am tired of my ethinicty being pigeon holed in to literally 2 or 3 different rolls, especially when those rolls are perverted fetishes for females and dismisive and emasculating for men.

I would love more diversity and I think it would add quite a bit to the game. Infact, as I said before, it would seem *really* weird to have a world with only white people in it. That would need more explaining in my opinion.

[legbamel]

Silfren wrote...

HiroVoid wrote...
I always wondered when this issue would end up popping up.

So did I.  I'm actually surprised people didn't make the point sooner.

It did, months ago, hence the dev comments that the old engine didn't make usable darker skin tones.  It's something I've long wanted and am excited to see what Frostbite is capable of adding to character customization.  So says I. 

[Fetunche]

If the game was set in ancient Africa I wouldn't expect to play a Caucasian character and it wouldn't-bother me either. The people from Ferelden are white like in Europe, Isabela is from Rivain and is dark skinned if the games were set in Rivain I would expect to play a dark skinned character and would need some kind of background story or explanation if I wasn't.

[Tarek]

MisanthropePrime wrote...

Merc Mama wrote...

Tarek wrote...

and actually if we want to be statistical about people on earth, white people are the minority numbers wise

now excuse me I need to worship my Steve idol....

Now Steve was a great character, ethnically I was blown away by him cause he had a hispanic name, but he didn't conform to a stereotype. He had alittle of this and that and those eyes. Fereldan needs more Steves.

Steve was probably of Afro-Carribean decent, there are people who look like him especially in places like Cuba who have obviously Hispanic last names.

he is perfect got all the sexy traits from everyone, if he was real I would be his offical stalker forever

[Nole]

I want to be albino.

[Silfren]

legbamel wrote...

Silfren wrote...

HiroVoid wrote...
I always wondered when this issue would end up popping up.

So did I.  I'm actually surprised people didn't make the point sooner.

It did, months ago, hence the dev comments that the old engine didn't make usable darker skin tones.  It's something I've long wanted and am excited to see what Frostbite is capable of adding to character customization.  So says I. 

....I was not talking about that.  I was talking about the decision to remove the PM feature from people not on your F-list. Which was pretty clear given that the bit you quoted had the relevant context in the same comment to make that extremely clear.  How in the world did you miss it?

Modifié par Silfren, 01 juillet 2013 - 01:38 .

[Tarek]

WittingEight65 wrote...

I want to be albino.

isn't that a genetic disorder ??!!

google...

yes it is

[Silfren]

Fetunche wrote...

If the game was set in ancient Africa I wouldn't expect to play a Caucasian character and it wouldn't-bother me either. The people from Ferelden are white like in Europe, Isabela is from Rivain and is dark skinned if the games were set in Rivain I would expect to play a dark skinned character and would need some kind of background story or explanation if I wasn't.

......There are more than just white people in Europe!  Jesus ****ing Christ!

[Thiefy]

Silfren wrote...

Fetunche wrote...

If the game was set in ancient Africa I wouldn't expect to play a Caucasian character and it wouldn't-bother me either. The people from Ferelden are white like in Europe, Isabela is from Rivain and is dark skinned if the games were set in Rivain I would expect to play a dark skinned character and would need some kind of background story or explanation if I wasn't.

......There are more than just white people in Europe!  Jesus ****ing Christ!

Just like there is more than one ethinicity in Africa as well. Inluding "ancient" Africa. 

[Merc Mama]

Tarek wrote...

WittingEight65 wrote...

I want to be albino.

isn't that a genetic disorder ??!!

google...

yes it is

If you were making an anime hero for some sort, then that skin tone maybe useful. Though am I the only one that found it odd that a Liara avatar was asking to be albino?

[MisanthropePrime]

Thief-of-Hearts wrote...

I don't understand why we need "a specific context" to include someone that's Asian (or any other ethinicity) in a video game.

It basically amounts to you need a REASON to include someone who is non-white into the game.

Seriously, I know some people aren't trying to be offensive, but have you actually taken a step back from your opinion and just tried to objectively look at it? Question why you think that way?

I am objectively looking at it, and to be honest, I feel a lot of people are not. Looking at the setting objectively: a land area that has similar climate and ecology to Europe. Assuming that humans are there, all factors would point to them being similar to the actual population of Europe on Earth.

There were actually plenty of ancient cultures that embraced homosexuality, so I don't see why that's an issue here. Aside from that, this is Bioware's world, and their story. They call the shots and if they want a world where bedroom habits aren't something people aren't shamed for, that is their perogative. It's only "jarring" and "hard to swallow" because that's your personal view.

That's the thing, there were some that did, and some that didn't. And even various society's tolerances of homosexuality varied. I am not saying that it should be universally reviled but I am saying that it seems odd for it to be universally tolerated especially in a setting that acknowledges the importance of marriage and procreation for the consolidation of power.

First of all, Hawke's family didn't even come from Lothering, they came from Kirkwall. The father and mother both fled the city, so there would be no way for them to have chasind blood unless it was a few generations back. And again, what is with this about having to explain other races? You don't ask for Bioware to explain the presences of white people, but say that someone who is Asian doesn't make sense and needs to be explained? Do you really not see how something like this might upset someone?

Right, forgot that Leandra was already pregnant with Hawke when she eloped with Malcolm. which makes even less sense. As said before, the apparent climate of Thedas is a sufficient explanation for white people.

Why should they HAVE to explain the presences of other races? Isn't it more odd to only have one ethinicity?
Why aren't you questioning the presences of horns on Qunari and what biological purpose/advantage they have, rather than questioning the presences of a person with a single fold eyelid or almond shape eye?

We don't have only one ethnicity. We have a large variety- the various tribes that made up or make up the present nations, and different people in different areas have different phenotypes. Antivans and Tevinters have noticably more olive toned skin than Fereldens and Marchers, and the Donarks-descended Rivainis are very dark. And there is no reason why they shouldn't be. What is the problem is, given a character's established background, it makes no sense for them to display the phenotypes of a group they do not belong to.

For all your talk about the game relating to the real word and how things should "make more sense", you do realize that all people of different ethinicities came from ONE ethinicity and every other ethinicity just had adaptions to better suit different climates, right? So what's so hard to believe that the same wouldn't happen in the game universe?

There is plenty of evidence that such has happened: did you not read any of my posts? The problem is why would someone who's from a temperate climate, whose ancestors have been in said climate for many, many generations, look like someone who comes from a more tropical climate? If we know that the Couslands, for instance, have been in Highever forever, what possible reason would they have for appearing like a Rivaini or even an Antivan?

I'm biracial, but ethinically I look Asian. I want to make a main character that looks like me, just like anyone else.  I want some other npcs to have features that favor my ethinicity as well so I don't feel like my character is out of place, just like everyone else. Saying that people like me don't make sense in the game or people with my features need to have some kind of lore explanation, as if we are some magical creature, is akin to saying we don't really belong in the game (unless someone where gracious enough to make a spot for us, bless their hearts).

I myself am "multiracial" (this may come as a shock to people: but it's why I am so interested in the topic of race, believe it or not), but to have someone like me (who is so ambiguous that I was once thought to be both kinds of Indian within the space of one day) without an explanation in the lore does a disservice to the setting. As a constructed world, everything needs an explanation. That's what worldbuilding is all about. Were there a climate and environment as similar to Asia as there is to Europe in the Dragon Age setting, and said population had made first contact with that of Thedas, there would be no problem. But they haven't.

Why not? Why can't we have black or asian or hispanics "just because"? Why do THOSE races need to be explained, and not white people? Why is the white ethinicity the default? Even with it being the default why should that be at the exlcusion of people of color? SOME parts of Thedas are based of Medeivil Europe but that doesn't account for ALL of it. Either way, I think it's best if we let one of the Bioware staff tell us what the "lore" is and the basic geography of the world instead of using your own assumptions to tell others what is and is not appropiate for the game.

No one is saying that all "people of color" (an extremely oversimplified term that assumes that everyone whose immediate origins don't lie in Europe have a similar experience) need to be removed or pushed aside, but they need a justification in the fictional setting if they're going to be playable. If a character is explicitly from a region, he should resemble the other characters from that region. That's... it.

I really just can't wrap my head around your way of thinking. For the sake of arguement though, let's pretend I agree, despite this entire post. Let me ask you this, what is WRONG with people wanting more diversity? Is it really more important to make "sense" in such a stringent way than just allowing people to have small luxuries that would really make them enjoy and appreciate the game that much more?

People wanting more diversity is fine. People wanting more diversity at the exception of cohesive lore and storytelling in a series that prides itself on its lore and storytelling is not. If bioware deems having characters with a wide variety of phenotypes to be particularly important, than all they need is to have the background for the character be left ambiguous.

Racial diversity and inclusion of the LGBT community may not mean much to you, but for plenty of people in means A LOT. I think it would be safe for me to say that you honestly have no idea how much these kinds of things mean to people who are not "the core demographic for video games." If you do have some inkling why these things would be important to us, then I'll ask you again, why is it more important to "make sense" (by your terms, since a lot of people have already given good reasons why inlcusion also "makes sense") rather than just "have fun"? Can this game only "be fun" by following what you think "make sense"? If you honestly say yes, then I just want to point out that it is very narrow minded.

The game is "fun" for me as it stands. I enjoyed Origins, and I even enjoyed DAII. That does not mean I cannot voice my opinions on how the game should be modified for DA:I. And I think a big problem was that its lore was internally inconsistent: things like Urzara's tooth being made by solivitus and yet being the holy amulet of an ancient Tevinter cult, or who whole "Qunari have/don't have" horns thing. It's a minor inconsistency, but one that can be fixed: I don't think that people from one region, canonically, should have the appearance of those from another. The obvious solution is to keep things nonspecific.

Modifié par MisanthropePrime, 01 juillet 2013 - 02:11 .

[CuriousArtemis]

Are there any black or brown people arguing that there should only be white people in Thedas? Stand still so I can smack you. Now that means the rest of you are white. I just wanted you to know that I have something for you. It's your privilege; you should have checked it at the door.