642 réponses à ce sujet

[MisanthropePrime]

motomotogirl wrote...

Are there any black or brown people arguing that there should only be white people in Thedas? Stand still so I can smack you. Now that means the rest of you are white. I just wanted you to know that I have something for you. It's your privilege; you should have checked it at the door.

I suppose I constitute as "brown".

[5ubzer0]

KC_Prototype wrote...

I always felt Dragon Age lack diversity in ethnicity. I know it's a fantasy game but still. I want more ethnic options because I am black and I like to make my characters look like me or at least be a cool representation.

Yes, please. I want a variety of ethnic options during character creation.

[Nomadiac]

Silfren wrote...

...Since Asia does not exist in Thedas, nobody WILL be described as Asian.  But we did see a character in Origins who had features that most people recognized as Asian.

I know I'm not the only person who finds the "context!  realism!" arguments against diversity to be tedious.

Also, bear in mind that medieval Europe WAS diverse.  I realize you're arguing against people who use this argument, but you're STILL perpetuating the idea that medieval Europe never heard of dark people.  

I meant something closer to "described as having Asian-phenotypic features", but that's somewhat wordy. (By the way, which character was recognised as Asian in Origins? I'm not being sarcastic or anything - I'm genuinely curious.)

As for "context! realism!" arguments, I'm not arguing against diversity - I want it to make sense within the world. The reason why there's Asian people like me in Australia is because of immigration, either from the 70s onwards or way back 150+ years ago, during the Gold Rush - we didn't just spontaneously pop up amongst an almost universally Anglo-Irish population (or before that, an Indigenous Australian population). Likewise, there should be some sort of reason for different ethnic groups existing in Thedas - maybe they've been there as long as everyone else and we just haven't seen any of them yet, maybe they're travellers from some distant land - but there shouldn't be no reason at all.

That said, that would be the thought process I would go through to justify an Asian PC and make it consistent with the lore for myself - there's nothing wrong with them putting more ethnic diversity in the CC for people who don't have these same concerns. The CC in the previous games allowed you to have humans with Dalish/Casteless tattoos, glowing red eyes eyes, purple hair, etc., so lore/world consistency hasn't been a major constraint on the CC anyway.

And yes, I know full well that medieval Europe knew about the existence of people who weren't white. However, I'm under the impression that the actual diversity (as in large numbers of people living there who don't look like White Europeans) was limited to fringe areas like the Iberian Peninsula, the Caucasus and near the Urals, and that most of Europe was what we'd recognise as white during the Middle Ages. 

[Nole]

Tarek wrote...

WittingEight65 wrote...

I want to be albino.

isn't that a genetic disorder ??!!

google...

yes it is

But I want to look like Elric :'(

[Thiefy]

I am objectively looking at it, and to be honest, I feel a lot of people are not. Looking at the setting objectively: a land area that has similar climate and ecology to Europe. Assuming that humans are there, all factors would point to them being similar to the actual population of Europe on Earth.

Except that as many people pointed out, it's not Europe, and only portions of Thedas are modeled after Europe. And Europe doesn't just consists of white people. It never did, unless you are only counting the most northern countries. By all counts then, there should be more ethinic diversity because it makes sense, in relation to Europe anyway.

That's the thing, there were some that did, and some that didn't. And even various society's tolerances of homosexuality varied. I am not saying that it should be universally reviled but I am saying that it seems odd for it to be universally tolerated especially in a setting that acknowledges the importance of marriage and procreation for the consolidation of power.

We will have to agree to disagree then. I really don't need to justify something like that anymore than the fact I could stab someone in the middle of the street and noone would look twice or a bloodmage pc can walk around with no consequence at all. A portion of it could be because of the gameplay, and a portion of it could be because of the story but either way I don't think it detracts from the game any, and it worthy of being seriously questioned.

Right, forgot that Leandra was already pregnant with Hawke when she eloped with Malcolm. which makes even less sense. As said before, the apparent climate of Thedas is a sufficient explanation for white people.

Except that Fereldan was set on the southern half of the hemisphere, so the Chasind, who were normally dark complexion in game, should theoretically be white skinned with blond hair, while those that lived to the north should have been with a dark complexion. Neither of these things happened. Kirkwall also happens to be a port city, and as you pointed out, would also be a prime place for cultural diversity. That and if I am not mistakened, I believe each Circle also had the habit of "trading" mages between each other so it would be quite possible to, at the very least, have daddy Hawke be a person of color, if LeAndra's noble family would be too difficult to imagine.

We don't have only one ethnicity. We have a large variety- the various tribes that made up or make up the present nations, and different people in different areas have different phenotypes. Antivans and Tevinters have noticably more olive toned skin than Fereldens and Marchers, and the Donarks-descended Rivainis are very dark. And there is no reason why they shouldn't be. What is the problem is, given a character's established background, it makes no sense for them to display the phenotypes of a group they do not belong to

No, Thedas doesn't have only one ethinicity. I'm glad we can agree on that. What people are asking for is better visualisation of those ethinicities, because as it stands, those other ethinicities just look like white people with tans. That is NOT ethnic diversity. For the record I also believe Rivani people are ethinically dark skinned Africans. I don't know if it was Mr. Gaider who wrote that or someone else, but there was a post about Duncan and Isabella having those features (and I believe Duncan was mixed? it was a while ago, apologies for the vagueness).

Now I'm going to challenge your assertion about character's established background. Let's take Duncan, because I'm assuming he mixed. Before it gets too indepth, let's just go ahead and establish two different ethinic people did the nasty and out popped baby!Duncan, because realistically, we should at least assume some sort of travel and cultural exchange happened somewhere, at sometime. To have it never happen, ever, is unrealistic. As a mixed person, he can express genes of one parent, favoring a set features over another, or he can express them both. If it happened with him, then there's also a good chance it happened with other people as well, and now we have MORE mixed babies. Maybe not at the exact same time, and maybe it was a different port, but they are still there. This established what you said about bigger cities having more diversity. Let's take this a step further? What was Duncan? A greywarden. His job required he travel around a lot. He may not have been able to make babies, but what about mixed merchants? Or warriors? Or circle mages? People who travel around a lot and procreate would then be spread those genes around the globe. Especially given that white features are recessive, it should be no surprise to see diversity spanning across Thedas.

There is plenty of evidence that such has happened: did you not read any of my posts? The problem is why would someone who's from a temperate climate, whose ancestors have been in said climate for many, many generations, look like someone who comes from a more tropical climate? If we know that the Couslands, for instance, have been in Highever forever, what possible reason would they have for appearing like a Rivaini or even an Antivan?

Because white people aren't the only people who live in temperate climates? There are a lot of different types of Asian ethinicities as well as Native American ethinicities that also lived/lives in temperate climates. As for the people that Fereldan make up originally:
dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Alamarri
No where there does it state what specifically those people look like. Judging by the concept art though, the scandanavian, or eastern european white ethinicity is pretty far off. 

I myself am "multiracial" (this may come as a shock to people: but it's why I am so interested in the topic of race, believe it or not), but to have someone like me (who is so ambiguous that I was once thought to be both kinds of Indian within the space of one day) without an explanation in the lore does a disservice to the setting. As a constructed world, everything needs an explanation. That's what worldbuilding is all about. Were there a climate and environment as similar to Asia as there is to Europe in the Dragon Age setting, and said population had made first contact with that of Thedas, there would be no problem. But they haven't.

Alright I'm going to have to point this out: Asia. You realize how HUGE that is? How many different, cultures, religions, languages, let alone ethinicities that one continent encompasses? A south Eastern Asian will look/act different from an Eastern (oriental) Asian, as would an Indian, and that the parts of Russia still in Asia, but closer to the scandanavian countries would have white people? Then you have the middle eastern Asians as well, get my point? A lot of Asia (and North America) would have climate similar to Europe (it's all about lattitude) so that' s kind of a moot point (besides the fact that Europe doesn't only have white people in it).

No one is saying that all "people of color" (an extremely oversimplified term that assumes that everyone whose immediate origins don't lie in Europe have a similar experience) need to be removed or pushed aside, but they need a justification in the fictional setting if they're going to be playable. If a character is explicitly from a region, he should resemble the other characters from that region. That's... it.

By people of color, I am referring to people who ethinically do not look caucasian, not people who do not have ethinic roots in Europe (or lie solely in Europe). I also disagree that an area should always be homogenous and if not should always be explained. This seems very rigid to me, almost as if something that was different was...out of place or bad.

To be fair though, with this paragraph I do see your point of you view better. I can't share it but I appreciate the time you took to explain your position better and not get unpleasant. I also apologize if I came off that way. This part actually explained what I was curious about and I suppose the heart of the matter for me.

People wanting more diversity is fine. People wanting more diversity at the exception of cohesive lore and storytelling in a series that prides itself on its lore and storytelling is not. If bioware deems having characters with a wide variety of phenotypes to be particularly important, than all they need is to have the background for the character be left ambiguous.

I don't think adding more diversity would be at the cost of the lore. I don't entire disagree that making things ambiguous would be a good move, be then again I've never seen them come out and say "this group of people is specifically white." Which I think is something someone else was trying to get at - there were characters who were supposed to be "ambiguous", but then just looked white due to the limitations of the previous engine.

Then there's also the problem of most of the Western World seeing the "default human" as a white male. Personally, if they are going to be explaining the presences of Black people, Asians, or Hispanics in Thedas, then there should be an explanation of why there are white people too, other than just "it was their land first".

The game is "fun" for me as it stands. I enjoyed Origins, and I even enjoyed DAII. That does not mean I cannot voice my opinions on how the game should be modified for DA:I. And I think a big problem was that its lore was internally inconsistent: things like Urzara's tooth being made by solivitus and yet being the holy amulet of an ancient Tevinter cult, or who whole "Qunari have/don't have" horns thing. It's a minor inconsistency, but one that can be fixed: I don't think that people from one region, canonically, should have the appearance of those from another. The obvious solution is to keep things nonspecific.

I don't see how different ethinicities traveling around the world makes lore inconsistant. People are not stationary, thus genes of any type are not stationary.

I'm mean I don't think anyone is asking Bioware to rewrite it such that all of Fereldan is Asian or Hispanic (I would laugh so hard if they did though) but is it really that farfetched to imagine a handful of characters in a town might be something other than white?

[Hvethrung]

Merc Mama wrote...

If you were making an anime hero for some sort, then that skin tone maybe useful. Though am I the only one that found it odd that a Liara avatar was asking to be albino?

Today's Fun Fact: Albinism exists only in Anime.

[MisanthropePrime]

These multi-quote posts are getting unwieldy so I'm just going to state my case in what's hopefully a clear list of bullet points.
1) I have no problem with a variety of non-white-looking races appearing in Thedas. The presence of Antivans, Tevinters and Rivainis only enriches the world- hell, due to most of my own ancestry being tied to the Mediterranean I am actually fascinated by the former two nations.
2) What I do have a problem with is people who are NOT from those ethnic groups nevertheless display their phenotypes, IE, a Fereldan Noble character (PC or NPC) who inexplicably looks Rivaini or "African"
3) I'm also not thrilled about people from these races being disproportionately represented in areas where there's no real reason for them to be in: this has not been a problem in the previous games and I don't expect it to be a problem going forward, but some people treat the status-quo as a problem and I want to refute that. People who are visually non-white should logically only appear in significant numbers in A) their home territories cosmopolitan cities or C) border regions


Anyway, just a few minor lore tidbits
Duncan is half-Rivaini, half-Fereldan, and his background is actually a great example of how a non-white character can appear in a place like Ferelden. He was born in Ferelden, moved to the cosmopolitan city of Val Royeaux at a young age and later joined an international, wide-ranging group that gave him good reason to scour the rest of the world.
I'd be fine with Malcolm Hawke being of any race from the setting and Hawke and his siblings being mixed-race, but unfortunately whatever skintone and preset you pick for Hawke makes his mother look like him as well, which means the daughter of a noble family that has been in Kirkwall for ages can inexplicably look like a Rivaini, which is not something I'm hunky dory with.

[Eveangaline]

I'd certainly like more customization options.

[What a Succulent Ass]

I always find threads like these to be horrific trainwrecks amusing because they always betray the fact people know less about history than they think they do.

[Enigmatick]

I really wonder if this was something like the Jade Empire 2 where the regional ethnicity homogeneity was more obvious would people even make a thread like this?

[What a Succulent Ass]

Why would they need to?

[Silfren]

Random Jerkface wrote...

Why would they need to?

Modifié par BioWareMod01, 02 juillet 2013 - 05:52 .

[Enigmatick]

Random Jerkface wrote...

Why would they need to?

Why would they bother if everyone in fictional country of Jade Empire were a certain range of ethnicities and the player character is supposed to be born and raised in that country?
 

Silfren wrote...

You do realize by asking this question all the white people with unexamined privilege are going to go batcrap crazy and start screaming?

People on this forum actually use the phrase "unexamined privilege' unironically? That's a new one but I shouldn't be surprised really.

Modifié par Enigmatick, 01 juillet 2013 - 05:27 .

[Silfren]

Enigmatick wrote...

Random Jerkface wrote...

Why would they need to?

Why would they bother if everyone in fictional country of Jade Empire were a certain range of ethnicities and the player character is supposed to be born and raised in that country?
 

Silfren wrote...

You do realize by asking this question all the white people with unexamined privilege are going to go batcrap crazy and start screaming?

People on this forum actually use the phrase "unexamined privilege' unironically? That's a new one but I shouldn't be surprised really.

Why WOULD anyone use it unironically?  I think you just told me everything I need to know about you...

[What a Succulent Ass]

[Spam post removed.]

Modifié par Ninja Stan, 01 juillet 2013 - 06:08 .

[KC_Prototype]

nightscrawl wrote...

Aside from the CC options, which I agree there needs to be more of, the worst part about DAO was the Human Noble origin. You could certainly make your Warden a PoC (person of color), but your whole family was Caucasian, so... yeah.

At least DA2 was greatly improved on that front by having the family correspond to the CC presets. Amusingly, the preset I started with makes the family have a Latin-type look, but at this point I'm so used to them I can't use anything else!

That is what exactly what happened with me in DA:O, my character(profile pic) was colored but his whole family was white which made him feel like the adopted child.

[Ninja Stan]

Let's keep it on topic, please.

[KC_Prototype]

PinkShoes wrote...

I dunno i never felt like there was a lack of options when it came to customering the characters skin tone but more options is never a bad thing.

I dunno about that black hair thing. Are you saying you want afros? Lol be sorta funny actually. I wonder if there is a mod for that...

Sort of like Afros but like Fades, fauxhawk, the mohawks some black men have, dreads, etc. But they can go beyond just black hairstyles and add all kinds of ethnic hairstyles.

[Star fury]

Wasn't anyone making European-looking characters anyway? Now even Asians want to look like them, doing plastic surgery and whatnot.

Black son/daughter of Couslands or Hawkes would look weird anyway.

[n7stormrunner]

as a white person whose hair naturally grows into a afro I am offended by saying it's a black hair.... ok not really, actually for all I know I could have some black in me.

on topic: more is good.

[Silfren]

Star fury wrote...

Wasn't anyone making European-looking characters anyway? Now even Asians want to look like them, doing plastic surgery and whatnot.

Black son/daughter of Couslands or Hawkes would look weird anyway.

It's rather obvious from this and other threads that no, not everyone was making euro-looking characters.  At least insofar as the CC permitted it.

Nice way of generalizing about what entire groups of people do.

[What a Succulent Ass]

Bury me a G. "Afro." It's in the name, yo.

Star fury wrote...

Wasn't anyone making European-looking characters anyway? Now even Asians want to look like them, doing plastic surgery and whatnot.

Asian rhinoplasties and blepharoplasty are not attempts to look like white Europeans. I'm not even sure what relevance that has to anything, but there you go.

Black son/daughter of Couslands or Hawkes would look weird anyway.

My guy, we are on Earth-616. Don't bring all that bizarro alternate dimension bullsh*t over here.

Modifié par Random Jerkface, 01 juillet 2013 - 06:25 .

[Star fury]

Silfren wrote...

It's rather obvious from this and other threads that no, not everyone was making euro-looking characters.  At least insofar as the CC permitted it.

Nice way of generalizing about what entire groups of people do.

Still don't see a reason why to make a black/Asian Cousland or Hawke. Especially Hawke. 

[n7stormrunner]

Star fury wrote...

Silfren wrote...

It's rather obvious from this and other threads that no, not everyone was making euro-looking characters.  At least insofar as the CC permitted it.

Nice way of generalizing about what entire groups of people do.

Still don't see a reason why to make a black/Asian Cousland or Hawke. Especially Hawke. 

I can understand cousland but why not hawke, hawke's family change with em.

[What a Succulent Ass]

What reason would we have to make them white, B?

You ever tried to communicate with a jar of Hellmann's?

Modifié par Random Jerkface, 01 juillet 2013 - 06:54 .