642 réponses à ce sujet

[FKA_Servo]

Enigmatick wrote...
That's because they aren't black people in Thedas it's not a very hard thing to grasp, the closest we've gotten is Sten and he's a genetic abnormality from a race of oxmen.

Here it is again.

[What a Succulent Ass]

Enigmatick wrote...

TexasToast712 wrote...
Still doesnt look black at all to me. More Native American. In Da2 she just looks like a spanish pirate queen. Note im not against having black people in the game. Im just arguing that Isabela and Duncan definitely werent black or Asian.

That's because they aren't black people in Thedas it's not a very hard thing to grasp, the closest we've gotten is Sten and he's a genetic abnormality from a race of oxmen.

You realise that black people don't have a set group of characteristics, right.

[TexasToast712]

 This thread has been derailed and is going down in a fiery choo choo train of flames.

[Jarl Johnnie Walker]

Honestly, the objectivity of most of the debates here are subjective. Thus it's futile to "argue" about.

Life is a subjective experience. Every experience people come through on their own, personal, unsharable viewpoint. There can be no peer reviews of their direct experience, no real corroboration.

So I seriously see this going nowhere.

Modifié par Johnnie Walker, 01 juillet 2013 - 05:29 .

[Volus Warlord]

Cthulhu42 wrote...

Volus Warlord wrote...

Seraph Cross wrote...

I'd like to see more ethnic diversity as well but I can't help to think that most people that talk about that just have an inferiority complex. Like those black people on youtube deeming certain shows and people racist cause there aren't enough black people

Sometimes I wonder if the reason we don't see more black characters is because Bioware is scared crapless about racism allegations. 

If that was the case, you wouldn't think they'd make a character like Jacob.

Actually, I find that Jacob is a supporting argument for my statement. Jacob was bland as hell, with no real flaws or controversial views/actions/history like ALL the other characters had. 

So, I conclude that they are terrified to make a black character that is something identifying about them other than being black. As such, the characters are either flat and bland or omitted entirely.

Modifié par Volus Warlord, 01 juillet 2013 - 05:32 .

[billy the squid]

Silfren wrote...

Volus Warlord wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Enigmatick wrote...

TommyServo wrote...

BouncyFrag wrote...

And what would those be?

Dude, it's a creation story for white people.

All the evil "south'roners" are brown.

Unfortunate implications. Not intended I believe

Unfortunate or not, intended or not, is beside the point.  The racist implications ARE there. 

DUN DUN DUN DUN

I really don't see a huge issue.

I only pointed out that it exists.  Racist concepts in Lord of the Rings is a thing.  Sorry.  I love the story as much as the next geek.  But loving it does not require that I be blind to the facts. 

Or stupid people like over analysing it and taking offence on behalf of people who aren't offended. They did the same thing with Lord of The Rings claiming it was an allegory for WW2. Which is about as stupid as your point.

Modifié par billy the squid, 01 juillet 2013 - 05:32 .

[Thiefy]

I really don't understand this claim about how people are asking for more visible people of color is the same as those fans calling it racist.

They aren't. They aren't saying the game is racist or the people who put the game out are racist. They are asking for a more customized PC based on certain features, those features being affiliated with certain ethnic races. It's no different than people asking for more body options or clothing options.

I also don't see what Lord of the Rings has to do with any of this, but I think it's pretty sad when people say "implied racism, even if it's unintentional, doesn't matter." It makes me assume that person has been fortunate enough in their life to never have to deal such topics on a personal basis.

[Enigmatick]

Random Jerkface wrote...

Enigmatick wrote...

TexasToast712 wrote...
Still doesnt look black at all to me. More Native American. In Da2 she just looks like a spanish pirate queen. Note im not against having black people in the game. Im just arguing that Isabela and Duncan definitely werent black or Asian.

That's because they aren't black people in Thedas it's not a very hard thing to grasp, the closest we've gotten is Sten and he's a genetic abnormality from a race of oxmen.

You realise that black people don't have a set group of characteristics, right.

You realise that  when I say black I definitely mean people of African descent that have features that no NPC in Dragon have right?

[Silfren]

BouncyFrag wrote...

Silfren wrote...

BouncyFrag wrote...

And what would those be?

As was already pointed out, there's the Southrons, for starters.  But you can use Google, right?  Do a little research yourself.  I am NOT going to take the time to discuss the matter here for pages and pages, especially not when I get the distinct impression you're already prepared not to listen.

So you like to make bold statements and then when asked about them you tell me to look it up on google. Thats weaksauce and lazy. Sometimes a picture is worth a thousand words.

It's not a bold statement, and it's nothing new, but an old discussion.

I don't owe you a damn thing, least of all the obligation to educate.  If I had any reason to think you were asking me honestly, in good faith, I'd be happy to discuss it with you.  But I believe quite firmly you weren't prepared to have a discussion, and your response to my refusal to engage proves me to me that I was right, because if you were genuinely interested in what I had to say, you would have responded differently. 

Do your own research or GTFO.  I did my own homework on the subject, and you get to do the same.

[FKA_Servo]

billy the squid wrote...

Or stupid people like over analysing it and taking offence on behalf of people who aren't offended. They did the same thing with Lord of The Rings claiming it was an allegory for WW2. Which is about as stupid as your point.

I can only speak for myself, but recognizing that historically, high fantasy is Eurocentric and overwhelmingly white (by white (usually male) authors, with white principally male) characters, for an assumed white (usually male) audience), and realizing that that's a product of a culture that's internalized and normalized it's racism isn't actually the same as me being offended. It's just me being observant.

On the other hand, one of the reasons this forum is here is to advocate for what we want in the games. So.

Modifié par TommyServo, 01 juillet 2013 - 05:42 .

[billy the squid]

Thief-of-Hearts wrote...

I also don't see what Lord of the Rings has to do with any of this, but I think it's pretty sad when people say "implied racism, even if it's unintentional, doesn't matter." It makes me assume that person has been fortunate enough in their life to never have to deal such topics on a personal basis.

[What a Succulent Ass]

Enigmatick wrote...

You realise that  when I say black I definitely mean people of African descent that have features that no NPC in Dragon have right?

The only thing I got from this is that for one, you aren't aware of the diversity of African features (and I mean just continental Africans alone), and another, you gotta be a golliwog* to be black.




*No n*ggas on earth actually look like golliwogs.

Modifié par Random Jerkface, 01 juillet 2013 - 05:40 .

[Volus Warlord]

Cthulhu42 wrote...

Jacob can cheat on the PC and get another woman pregnant; how is he not a bad racial stereotype?

Anderson is more what you described.

They are "romances" not relationships. I'd hardly blame him for bouncing on a one-night stand (essentially) if the other one got locked up.  That is not a racial stereotype, that is a logical course of action. "Stay loyal to our lack of relationship even though I've been locked up for years!" No.   It'd be a bad racial stereotype if he ran out on the girl he got pregnant or something like that. 

Anderson is the same thing, but not as directly involved as Jacob. At least not in ME2. 

[Silfren]

Thief-of-Hearts wrote...

I really don't understand this claim about how people are asking for more visible people of color is the same as those fans calling it racist.

They aren't. They aren't saying the game is racist or the people who put the game out are racist. They are asking for a more customized PC based on certain features, those features being affiliated with certain ethnic races. It's no different than people asking for more body options or clothing options.

I also don't see what Lord of the Rings has to do with any of this, but I think it's pretty sad when people say "implied racism, even if it's unintentional, doesn't matter." It makes me assume that person has been fortunate enough in their life to never have to deal such topics on a personal basis.

This.  Ever so much this.  I think that implied racism, or "passive racism" is actually worse, because it's largely invisible.  Quite frankly, I DO think that Thedas being so utterly whitewashed IS a product of racism--the passive variety--and I'm not afraid to say so, because it NEEDS to be said.  The world is not all white.  It has never been all white.  Media reflecting all-white societies with only token PoCs is a product of colorblind privilege, and like it or not, privilege COMES FROM RACISM.

I'm not saying that Bioware is peopled by a group of KKK members.  But that is NOT the only form of racism that exists.  The fact that when people create threads like this and it ends up being swarmed by privileged masses determined to prove that ethnic diversity is a bad thing/that white homogeneity is totally justified kind of proves the point. 

The sad fact is, Bioware needs to hear this.  They need to participate in this thread, rather than jumping in to lock it down.

Modifié par Silfren, 01 juillet 2013 - 05:54 .

[Silfren]

billy the squid wrote...

Or stupid people like over analysing it and taking offence on behalf of people who aren't offended. They did the same thing with Lord of The Rings claiming it was an allegory for WW2. Which is about as stupid as your point.

LoTR as an allegory for WW2 is stupid??? 

Dude, do you actually know anything about J.R.R. Tolkien, the man?  Like the fact he was IN WW1 and it directly affected his writing?

Edit:  Yes, I am aware that Tolkien was in WW1, not WW2.  No, I'm not backtracking.  I stand by what I wrote, however.  Tolkien's experience in war did directly affect his writing, whether he personally meant it as an allegory for any war or not. 

Modifié par Silfren, 01 juillet 2013 - 06:09 .

[billy the squid]

TommyServo wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

Or stupid people like over analysing it and taking offence on behalf of people who aren't offended. They did the same thing with Lord of The Rings claiming it was an allegory for WW2. Which is about as stupid as your point.

I can only speak for myself, but recognizing that historically, high fantasy is Eurocentric and overwhelmingly white (by white (usually male) authors, with white characters, for an assumed white audience), and realizing that that's a product of a culture that's internalized and normalized it's racism isn't actually the same as me being offended. It's just me being observant.

On the other hand, one of the reasons this forum is here is to advocate for what we want in the games. So.

A fantasy story written for young people by a Professor of Anglo Saxon mythology and English at Oxford University. in the first half of the 20th Century, shockingly has the hall marks of the culture and man which wrote it. Calling that racist is stupid. 

I can begin implying racism in almost anything I choose to as well.

[FKA_Servo]

Silfren wrote...

I'm not saying that Bioware is peopled by a group of KKK members.  But that is NOT the only form of racism that exists.  The fact that when people create threads like this and it ends up being swarmed by privileged masses determined to prove that ethnic diversity is a bad thing/that white homogeneity is totally justified kind of proves the point. 

There's a specific brand of BSN poster that only understands shouting. Subtlety usually goes over their heads. They are well represented in threads like this.

For them, It's either KKK or "It's A Small World," with no gray areas in between.

Modifié par TommyServo, 01 juillet 2013 - 05:46 .

[Thiefy]

billy the squid wrote...

Thief-of-Hearts wrote...

I also don't see what Lord of the Rings has to do with any of this, but I think it's pretty sad when people say "implied racism, even if it's unintentional, doesn't matter." It makes me assume that person has been fortunate enough in their life to never have to deal such topics on a personal basis.

 
I really don't understand the purpose of the gif (but i do find it funny). Anyway can you please explain whatever point you were trying to make with the gif because I missed it entirely. 

Edit:

It boggles my mind how you even come to that comparison.

that's because its not a comparison. she is just saying that as a preface because she knows that her following words would be misconstrued.

Modifié par Thief-of-Hearts, 01 juillet 2013 - 05:47 .

[TexasToast712]

Random Jerkface wrote...

Enigmatick wrote...

TexasToast712 wrote...
Still doesnt look black at all to me. More Native American. In Da2 she just looks like a spanish pirate queen. Note im not against having black people in the game. Im just arguing that Isabela and Duncan definitely werent black or Asian.

That's because they aren't black people in Thedas it's not a very hard thing to grasp, the closest we've gotten is Sten and he's a genetic abnormality from a race of oxmen.

You realise that black people don't have a set group of characteristics, right.

I know that they dont look like white people with a color palette swap.

[Silfren]

TommyServo wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

Or stupid people like over analysing it and taking offence on behalf of people who aren't offended. They did the same thing with Lord of The Rings claiming it was an allegory for WW2. Which is about as stupid as your point.

I can only speak for myself, but recognizing that historically, high fantasy is Eurocentric and overwhelmingly white (by white (usually male) authors, with white principally male) characters, for an assumed white (usually male) audience), and realizing that that's a product of a culture that's internalized and normalized it's racism isn't actually the same as me being offended. It's just me being observant.

But apparently we're supposed to keep our observations to ourselves.  Daring to publicize them means we're just offended.

[Enigmatick]

Random Jerkface wrote...

Enigmatick wrote...

You realise that  when I say black I definitely mean people of African descent that have features that no NPC in Dragon have right?

The only thing I got from this is that for one, you aren't aware of the diversity of African features (and I mean just continental Africans alone), and another, you gotta be a golliwog to be black.

I'm not gonna lie I had to google gooliwog. And I relate what I view to be black on what I see on a personal level and from what I've seen there's no one in Thedas with my type of hair, nose, lips nor they do match up with any of my friends or family who all come from a myriad of places, if you can actually point any blatant examples of npcs that mesh with african skin tones and features please do, you seem to to know about the subject than I do assuming you aren't talking out of your ass.

Modifié par Enigmatick, 01 juillet 2013 - 05:47 .

[billy the squid]

Silfren wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

Or stupid people like over analysing it and taking offence on behalf of people who aren't offended. They did the same thing with Lord of The Rings claiming it was an allegory for WW2. Which is about as stupid as your point.

LoTR as an allegory for WW2 is stupid??? 

Dude, do you actually know anything about J.R.R. Tolkien, the man?  Like the fact he was IN WW2 and it directly affected his writing?

Oh Really? You're an idiot. The man himself said in response to that claim.

"It is neither allegorical nor topical.... I cordially dislike allegory in all its manifestations, and always have done so since I grew old and wary enough to detect its presence."

Modifié par billy the squid, 01 juillet 2013 - 05:49 .

[BouncyFrag]

Silfren wrote...

BouncyFrag wrote...

Silfren wrote...

BouncyFrag wrote...

And what would those be?

As was already pointed out, there's the Southrons, for starters.  But you can use Google, right?  Do a little research yourself.  I am NOT going to take the time to discuss the matter here for pages and pages, especially not when I get the distinct impression you're already prepared not to listen.

So you like to make bold statements and then when asked about them you tell me to look it up on google. Thats weaksauce and lazy. Sometimes a picture is worth a thousand words.

It's not a bold statement, and it's nothing new, but an old discussion.

I don't owe you a damn thing, least of all the obligation to educate.  If I had any reason to think you were asking me honestly, in good faith, I'd be happy to discuss it with you.  But I believe quite firmly you weren't prepared to have a discussion, and your response to my refusal to engage proves me to me that I was right, because if you were genuinely interested in what I had to say, you would have responded differently. 

Do your own research or GTFO.  I did my own homework on the subject, and you get to do the same.

Your responce to my initial comment to elaborate is ironic. You assumed with one small sentence how I felt about the issue and that I'm not open minded. Racism at its very core is making assumptions about someone based on the color of ones skin. You really should take a good look in the mirror and see if you like the person looking back at you. Again, telling someone to do their own research since you couldn't be bothered to outline your argument is as shameful as it is lazy.

Modifié par BouncyFrag, 01 juillet 2013 - 05:48 .