56 réponses à ce sujet

[AndreaDraco]

During my first playthrough with an Elven Mage, I chose to support Bhelen when it came to Orzammar's politics, because, from what my character gathered, the Prince seemed a more modern-thinking, open-minded ruler and those were qualities mt PC highly regarded.

However, now I'm roleplaying a Dalish Rogue who doesn't really care for philosophy, for the concept of freedom or social egalitarism. He only wants to save his people from the Blight, and maybe to gain something for the Dalish. Now, when it comes to decide who should be King, is there a way to know where the king-to-be stands on certain topics? Are there places in Orzammar - maybe in Dust Town - or in Ferelden where I can talk to some dwarves to make a conscious choice? Or there is no way to gather these information outside the two Dwarf origins?

During the other Plot Quests, one was always given all the pivotal information before being asked to make a choice, while I feel that Orzammar forces a non-Dwarf character to a certain degree of metagame, while, on the other hand, I'd like to be able to let the character make an informed decision rather than chosing Harrowmont only because I chose Bhelen last time.

[beelzeybob]

If you talk around to orzammar you will find out that the second son of King Endrin was mysteriously framed for murder of the eldest brother, and exiled.

[SPOILER answer] As a Dwarf noble, Harrowmon>Bhelen... as bhelen backstabs you and has you exiled, naked into the Deep Roads with nothing but a sword + if you pick Harrowmont, he will die but name you as heir.

As any other origin, Bhelen>Harrowmont, simply because there is no saving Harrowmont's limited lifespan. Orzammar will go into turmoil after his death again.

Modifié par 13eelzebub, 18 janvier 2010 - 01:11 .

[jennamarae]

Take Zevran with you when you go to talk to their representatives the first time. Vartag and the other one, I can't remember his name right now. Zevran will give you his opinion on Harrowmont. Wynne will kinda give you hers about Bhelen if you questions about the promissory notes. You could make the choice that way instead depending on who you have with you.

[keesio74]

Both Bhelen and Harrowmont are the same in regards to helping you stop the blight. Help them get on the throne and they will back you up equally.



In terms of what they think of the Dalish, Bhelen is probably a better choice. He is more open minded about the surface and other races. Harrowmont is an isolationist.

[Kiwiya]

You have the options to talk to both of their seconds... Harrowmont's fighters will talk smack about Bhelen, and some nobles in the tavern will gossip about Harrowmont.

Other than that, no, I don't think there is any way to get to know them. I felt like I was just taking a stab in the dark the first time... but maybe it's supposed to be that way?

[keesio74]

jennamarae wrote...

Take Zevran with you when you go to talk to their representatives the first time. Vartag and the other one, I can't remember his name right now. Zevran will give you his opinion on Harrowmont. Wynne will kinda give you hers about Bhelen if you questions about the promissory notes. You could make the choice that way instead depending on who you have with you.

I'm assuming Zevran is anti-Harrowmont and Wynne is anti-Bhelen?

If that is the case then I feel better about supporting Harrowmont because Wynne has a better moral compass.

[jennamarae]

keesio74 wrote...

I'm assuming Zevran is anti-Harrowmont and Wynne is anti-Bhelen?

If that is the case then I feel better about supporting Harrowmont because Wynne has a better moral compass.

Yes. Zevran thinks Harrowmont is cowardly for refusing to meet with you before you prove your loyalty, though he curiously doesn't mind if Bhelen won't. Wynne's comments aren't quite as blunt, but she makes her disapproval of Bhelen's methods known.

[Kiwiya]

keesio74 wrote...
I'm assuming Zevran is anti-Harrowmont and Wynne is anti-Bhelen?

If that is the case then I feel better about supporting Harrowmont because Wynne has a better moral compass.

I forget Zev's exact words, but his reasoning was something about how much of a coward Harrowmont must have been to have these men fight for him, and not even talk to you. A king can't just be nice, he needs to be strong, which he doesn't think Harrowmont is.
I don't know about Wynne, though.

Modifié par Kiwiya, 18 janvier 2010 - 01:18 .

[keesio74]

Thanks. I just can't get myself to support Bhelen, even though it sounds like he makes a better king. He seems too much of an ass.

[Kepha]

If you're careful about playing both sides you can find out more information by stringing them both along for a while. The key is that you can only do either The Proving, or Aeducan Thaig, not both. (otherwise you might get into a situation where both sides are locked out.)  If you're inclined for the second level backstabbing, do the first quest of the one you're less likely to support, then persuade the other one that you're really on their side.

Taking the promissory notes to Shaper gives you a hint into what Bhelan is like.

Legnar, the merchant in the commons nearest to Dust Town will advocate for Bhelan. Nerav will advocate for Harrowmont.

Modifié par Kepha, 18 janvier 2010 - 01:40 .

[Chateau Migraine]

If you need some information on Bhelen, I can recommend that dwarven merchant in the Commons, shortly before the entrance of the Dust Town. He is a staunch supporter of Bhelen and makes some comments about his policy, especially concerning the... foreign politics.

Concerning Harrowmont... IMO the posters before me have mentioned every source. My apologies, I can't help on that one.

Edit: Seems like I type slower than a two-handed warrior swings. Kepha was faster than me, and even more accurate on the name. 

Modifié par Chateau Migraine, 18 janvier 2010 - 01:40 .

[RangerSG]

If you have a high persuade, you can get Vartag to pretty much admit Bhelen's a dirtbag.



If I'm playing the Dwarf Noble, there's no way in the world I support Bhelen, even if I respect the way he played the game, it's only fair when I have the chance to pay him back.



But any other origin, it's 6 of one, half-dozen of the other. Both have their hands dirty. Bhelen may be best in terms of prosperity for Orzammar, but there's no doubt he's oppressive. Harrowmont is not long for the earth, and unless you're the paragon & heir, it really doesn't go them any good to support him. And besides that, his backward policies are a large part of what keeps the dwarves on the retreat.

[Creature 1]

keesio74 wrote...

jennamarae wrote...

Take Zevran with you when you go to talk to their representatives the first time. Vartag and the other one, I can't remember his name right now. Zevran will give you his opinion on Harrowmont. Wynne will kinda give you hers about Bhelen if you questions about the promissory notes. You could make the choice that way instead depending on who you have with you.

I'm assuming Zevran is anti-Harrowmont and Wynne is anti-Bhelen?

If that is the case then I feel better about supporting Harrowmont because Wynne has a better moral compass.

But Harrowmont upholds the caste system and actually makes things worse for the casteless.  Bhelen helps erode the caste boundaries and increases trade with the surface, overall benefiting Orzammar's happiness and prosperity.  Someone who is good is not always the best leader (umm, Alistair), and someone who appears to be good is not always as advertised. 

Zevran prefers Bhelen because he thinks Harrowmont is a coward.  This is true, and a reason why Harrowmont is a poor leader and maintains the unfair system in Orzammar--he wants to keep the powerful happy. 

[Kepha]

I haven't finished the Deep Roads yet with my Dwarf Noble, but I found it most satisfying to pretend to side with Bhelen, do his first task, switch sides to Harrowmont and through that get the proof in Jarvia's lair that Bhelen did set me and Trian up. Adds that little bit extra flavor of Dwarven politics to the whole thing.

Modifié par Kepha, 18 janvier 2010 - 02:26 .

[Addai]

The clues are subtle but they are there. Listen to what the criers are saying... sometimes you learn the most from the critics, such as Bhelen's openness towards the casteless. The game does seem to set up "good" characters to choose Harrowmont, however Zevran does give you good advice. Keep in mind he has seen a lot of politics and knows how such games are played. Wynne, not so much.

[ejoslin]

jennamarae wrote...

keesio74 wrote...

I'm assuming Zevran is anti-Harrowmont and Wynne is anti-Bhelen?

If that is the case then I feel better about supporting Harrowmont because Wynne has a better moral compass.

Yes. Zevran thinks Harrowmont is cowardly for refusing to meet with you before you prove your loyalty, though he curiously doesn't mind if Bhelen won't. Wynne's comments aren't quite as blunt, but she makes her disapproval of Bhelen's methods known.

I think Zevran's opinion may be more about Harrowmonts fighters refusing to fight in the proving so you're being recruited to fight instead.

[mousestalker]

Wynne is also a traditionalist. She is a supporter of the status quo. Zevran is a member of the proletariat.

[Emma-Lath]

You could always side with one of them and if you decide you don't like them switch sides. During my first playthrough my dalish elf supported Bhelen at first, but she found him to be an ass and she was pretty pissed at him because of all the trouble the Branka mission caused, so at the last minute she switched sides and told the assembly that caridin supported Harrowmont. I have to it was extremely satisfying seeing how out raged Bhelen was after that.

[flagondotcom]

Kepha wrote...

If you're careful about playing both sides you can find out more information by stringing them both along for a while. The key is that you can only do either The Proving, or Aeducan Thaig, not both. (otherwise you might get into a situation where both sides are locked out.)  If you're inclined for the second level backstabbing, do the first quest of the one you're less likely to support, then persuade the other one that you're really on their side.

Taking the promissory notes to Shaper gives you a hint into what Bhelan is like.

Legnar, the merchant in the commons nearest to Dust Town will advocate for Bhelan. Nerav will advocate for Harrowmont.

Agreed on almost all points.  I will note, though, that if you never talk to Harrowmont's second, you can complete Aeducan Thaig, get the Jarvia quest assigned, then do the Proving (basically for XP only) as an independent.

[Sunthas]

Kepha wrote...

If you're careful about playing both sides you can find out more information by stringing them both along for a while. The key is that you can only do either The Proving, or Aeducan Thaig, not both. (otherwise you might get into a situation where both sides are locked out.)  If you're inclined for the second level backstabbing, do the first quest of the one you're less likely to support, then persuade the other one that you're really on their side.

Its easy to do both Aeducan Thaig and the proving. You can even get Harrowmont's fighters back into the fight if you accept those quests, just don't finish the quests by going back to the tavern to talk to Harrowmont's second. Instead go and do the Aeducan Thaig portion and bring Dace back, then finish by going to the proving and either doing it in the Warden's name or in Behlen's name. 

[Xetirox]

Addai67 wrote...

The clues are subtle but they are there. Listen to what the criers are saying... sometimes you learn the most from the critics, such as Bhelen's openness towards the casteless. The game does seem to set up "good" characters to choose Harrowmont, however Zevran does give you good advice. Keep in mind he has seen a lot of politics and knows how such games are played. Wynne, not so much.

Pretty much what made me make my final decision. The criers may just be there to slander their opposing candidate, but neither of them are entirely lying. And what made my generally apolitical protagonist choose was when the Harrowmont crier denounced Bhelen for "planning to institute a draft," which meant he may have seriously getting prepared for war. Being as the only thing the Dwarves ever fight (besides themselves) are Darkspawn, I figured if either would be more willing to support my cause, it would be him, and his support would be better.

And besides, with all the "Bhelen is a scumbag who had his older siblings killed and exiled," while "Harrowmont is honorable" that was otherwise going on, I just figured that in this kind of game, there just had to be more to these guys than their stereotypical surface traits. "Good" does not necessarily equal "nice," after all.

Modifié par Xetirox, 18 janvier 2010 - 05:58 .

[draxynnus]

That's pretty much it. Harrowmont is honourable but not suited to actual leading, while Bhelen is a backstabbing tyrant that nonetheless has some ideas that would be good for Orzammar. For a non-dwarven PC, it's basically a matter of choosing who your character sees as the least bad candidate. (Nobles and casteless, by contrast, have good reasons for supporting Harrowmont or Bhelen respectively.)

[jennamarae]

ejoslin wrote...

I think Zevran's opinion may be more about Harrowmonts fighters refusing to fight in the proving so you're being recruited to fight instead.

Ah, yes I think you're right. It's been a bit since I played through that part and haven't gotten there yet on my newest character so the details were fuzzy. Now that I think about it though isn't there a line of Zevran's that's something along the lines of the fighters following Harrowmont's lead and being cowards?

[LightSabres]

If you take the "papers" that Vartag gives you (to show Dace and Helmi) to the shaperate then the main guy in there will tell you that they have been altered.

[Lotion Soronarr]

No easy answer here.



Bhelen improves Orzamars economy, re-captures a thaig or two and makes life better for the casteless.

BUT he is a tyrant that murders and tortures any and all opposition, tears down institutions and attempts to conquer even the surface. No Assembly = absolute power for him.



Harrowmont is honourable and fair, always by the book, respect the law.

BUT his inabiltiy to fight the Assembly and his isolationist policy ends up weakening Orzamar economicly and shuts it even more from the world. Until he dies.



So it sucks either way.The question is:

Do you think the changes are worth all the blood and torture?

Do you think the law and honor are worth the degradation?