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[Bionuts]

She was going to get raped and killed. The only person in the WHOLE alienage that  cared enough to do anything was your fiance' Nelaros. Your father, Soris (at first), Valendrian,  every other Elf were going to let you get raped and killed.

Nevermind that the naive, clownish, joke of a "King" Cailan shows more emotion to what happened in 2 seconds than anyone else once you escape the palace.

Seriously, your daughter was about to get RAPED, and the only thing your coward a** has to say is complain about not having grandchildren.

She was going to get RAPED, and the elder Valendrian makes a snarky comment at her for wanting to leave that pithole of a city.

I go away from that Origins hating Elves almost as much as humans.

[Klidi]

She was going to get raped, and everyone else was going to get KILLED if they rebelled. In fact, they WERE killed - as you find out later, before the slavers came, there was a Purge. (And who can say if the soldiers performing the Purge didn't "have fun" with elven women before they killed them?)

I don't think they didn't care, they were just helpless and afraid. Remember that city elves were forbidden to carry weapons, and that the Warden's skills in fighting were EXCEPTION - and the one that was generally frowned upon, as it could cause problems for the whole community. So on one hand, there is a son of the most powerful noble in the city sans the King; on the other hand, a bunch of scared, unarmed elves.

It is very easy for you to say 'they should have stand up and fight!' - but have you ever been in that kind of situation? Would you run to help some girl, if it meant that your or your family would be targeted next? Would you risk the safety of your own daughter, to save a person from your neighbourhood? Would you risk the life of the entire quarter to free one person?

Don't be so quick to judge. These are not decisions that are made easily.

[Bionuts]

Klidi wrote...

She was going to get raped, and everyone else was going to get KILLED if they rebelled. In fact, they WERE killed - as you find out later, before the slavers came, there was a Purge. (And who can say if the soldiers performing the Purge didn't "have fun" with elven women before they killed them?)

I don't think they didn't care, they were just helpless and afraid. Remember that city elves were forbidden to carry weapons, and that the Warden's skills in fighting were EXCEPTION - and the one that was generally frowned upon, as it could cause problems for the whole community. So on one hand, there is a son of the most powerful noble in the city sans the King; on the other hand, a bunch of scared, unarmed elves.

It is very easy for you to say 'they should have stand up and fight!' - but have you ever been in that kind of situation? Would you run to help some girl, if it meant that your or your family would be targeted next? Would you risk the safety of your own daughter, to save a person from your neighbourhood? Would you risk the life of the entire quarter to free one person?

Don't be so quick to judge. These are not decisions that are made easily.

Would you try to save your own daughter if some men were trying to rape her? Her father didn't.

It doesn't really matter, though. It reminds me of what Sten and the Dalish said. The City Elves accept their fate, accept the rape of their own family, and accept living in trash.

What angered me the most was her father and Valendrian's reaction to the whole thing. Instead of showing sympathy and care, her father complains about not having grandchildren, and Valendrian (the elder) makes a snarky comment to her when she says she's glad to leave.

Keep in mind that of the 4 women that were captured, none of their family even made an effort to save them. Nelaros (a stranger to the alienage) got angry at them, and died to save them.

[mousestalker]

Soris actually does storm the castle. He does it even if you aren't playing the CE, you find him in Howe's dungeon.

And you have not addressed Klidi's point. The CE's mother was killed by humans. The codex makes it quite clear that the Alienage gets purged every time the elves misbehave and often when they do not. Valendrian is very much thinking about what happens when the humans retaliate.

And when they do retaliate it is awful. The orphanage gets looted and the children are slaughtered to the point that the Fade tears. The elves' choice is either they accept that several girls get raped and possibly murdered or they accept that everyone dies.

It's an easy choice to make if you do not have any interest. It's less easy when you and your people are involved.

If you look at the history, the Dalish are the descendants of the elven nobles who abandoned their people and ran for it. The City elves had to stay and take whatever the humans dished out. Sten has no personal attachments whatsoever (his unit is dead at that point). He has no family, so has no understanding of what family means.

[Bionuts]

mousestalker wrote...

Soris actually does storm the castle. He does it even if you aren't playing the CE, you find him in Howe's dungeon.

And you have not addressed Klidi's point. The CE's mother was killed by humans. The codex makes it quite clear that the Alienage gets purged every time the elves misbehave and often when they do not. Valendrian is very much thinking about what happens when the humans retaliate.

And when they do retaliate it is awful. The orphanage gets looted and the children are slaughtered to the point that the Fade tears. The elves' choice is either they accept that several girls get raped and possibly murdered or they accept that everyone dies.

It's an easy choice to make if you do not have any interest. It's less easy when you and your people are involved.

If you look at the history, the Dalish are the descendants of the elven nobles who abandoned their people and ran for it. The City elves had to stay and take whatever the humans dished out. Sten has no personal attachments whatsoever (his unit is dead at that point). He has no family, so has no understanding of what family means.

Soris told my CE that he only went after he found out Nelaros was going.

I understand the points being made, but it doesn't excuse her father, or the family of the women captured. They are responsible for their children. It's not as if the alienage is their only option, there are suitable places for an elf to live (not many, but they exist).

Like I said, what made me the angriest was her father and Valendrian's reaction once you escaped. I rage over it

[Bhryaen]

What did you want the families to do though? They have no weapons (Duncan wasn't volunteering to equip a militia, just the CE), no training, no force to bring to bear on the armed and armoured soldiers. That's not to say that they couldn't have started yelling, screaming, throwing things, etc. rather than just acquiescing quietly. I'd certainly be tempted, but as has been mentioned- such events aren't exactly rare in the Alienage. This is the conquered elves' one step up from slavery.

And as spirited as their resistance might've been they weren't going to be able to stop Vaughan. That large group of townfolk in Lothering never stop my small, ill-equipped band of four even though the townfolk do have weapons. A violent reaction would've meant a few bruises on the soldiers' side and deaths and rapes on the elves' side. So I can wish they'd have been all uppity and in the faces of the soldiers, but I'm not exactly going to blame them for not being so. Or do you blame blacks for not having the wherewithal as a people to rise up against their conditions as well after being emancipated from chattel slavery despite that segregation was enforced by law? Rapes happened back then as well.

Sten... is generally a dick. I love him as a companion, but he's obviously racist against anyone non-qunari- and prejudiced against women as well. He can be re-educated, but still. His "elves are weaklings" phrases come in that context. He's been trained to kill for the qunari. It's Zevran's attitude toward alienage elves that's more worth quoting.

Not sure what Cyrion was supposed to say either. He wasn't telling the CE she sucked because she wasn't giving him grandkids.

CE: "Dad, I just got nearly raped."
Dad: "Great, no grandkids now then, right? Pfft. Useless..."

He was lamenting how events had turned out for her and the losses for both of them, and clearly he thinks having kids and joining in with family events like city elves do was something she had wanted as well.

Cyrion: "If... this is what the Maker planned for you, then I guess it's for the best. Your Mother would be pleased." (He's referring to her getting drafted into the Gray Wardens...)
CE: "You're not pleased?"
Cyrion: "I just wish there was another way. I dreamed of grandchildren, family gatherings, and... *sigh* I'm sorry. This isn't helping... Take care, my girl. Be safe. And wise. And, well, you know. We'll all miss you."

I mean, it might've been interesting for Cyrion to have some expert advice for rape trauma recipients, but... he's just a father who only hours ago was anticipating his daughter getting married to a man of whom you do recognize the virtues, no? He'd gone through whatever efforts to secure the best match for his daughter thinking he'd be bringing joy to her and setting her up for life... only to have all those plans dashed. Arranged marriage- bleh- but it wasn't like he was cursing that she was being let out of his dungeon too soon. "Curses, foiled again!" He's a family guy, not the "firebrand" Adaia was, so he's not seeing that forced recruitment to the Gray Wardens is what the CE was looking for- and it may very well not be. Even if the CE had spoken favorably of that with Duncan prior to the wedding, Cyrion wouldn't have known. And after all- his wife was killed being a "firebrand." What will now happen to his daughter?

Valendrian has a similar reaction: "Well, I guess Duncan got his recruit after all." Is that the snarky comment you meant? It sounds to me like he's empathizing with the CE who was first subjected to Vaughan's brutality then forcibly subjected to Warden recruitment. All the conversation options after that opening remark are positive ending with farewell wishes. It's not like he says, "Stupid twit! Figures Adaia's kid would screw things up." He's on the CE's side, figuring this wasn't what the CE had wanted. Again- not sure what he's supposed to say. "Oh, you poor, poor girl..." They did make it out with only one of the abducted women raped, and the humans got a black eye for it they'll not soon forget... with a throng of human soldiers on their heels. Maybe he could've said something more complimentary about the Wardens or her becoming one than "I guess it's for the best," but he didn't say, "You know you'll suck as a Warden. Whatever- bye."

Soris though- yeah- and he starts considering Vaughan's bribe even if your CE doesn't (though he rejects the bribe if your CE considers it). But he does join Nelaros, no? So what if he wasn't the first to volunteer? He volunteered. No one else did. That counts for nothing?

I just don't come away with the same revulsion for alienage elves. They're not the most glorious people in DAO's world, very much second class citizens- even worse for dwarf commoners. You also get a sense of their ugly side when you see a group of elves beating up a human at the entrance later in the game- or the charlatan "beggar" scammer- or even those lame enough to trust the Tevinters without question- but they're not world destroyers. They're a beaten people who make the life they can in the squalor they've been afforded, and that they retain the family and community goodwill that they do is a strength. They could just as easily be as cutthroat as it gets in Dust Town.

What irks me most about the CE origin is that Shianni gets hammered no matter what you do- raped regardless in the origin story and then killed in the epilogue. You actually have to not play Shianni's CE best friend if you want her to not get raped and survive at the end. Playing the origin at all condemns her. *grumble*

Modifié par Bhryaen, 03 juillet 2013 - 05:07 .

[Bionuts]

Bhryaen wrote...

What did you want the families to do though? They have no weapons (Duncan wasn't volunteering to equip a militia, just the CE), no training, no force to bring to bear on the armed and armoured soldiers. That's not to say that they couldn't have started yelling, screaming, throwing things, etc. rather than just acquiescing quietly. I'd certainly be tempted, but as has been mentioned- such events aren't exactly rare in the Alienage. This is the conquered elves' one step up from slavery.

I agree, mostly. The family should've have done whatever they could within their power. However, they didn't. No protesting, nothing.

And as spirited as their resistance might've been they weren't going to be able to stop Vaughan. That large group of townfolk in Lothering never stop my small, ill-equipped band of four even though the townfolk do have weapons. A violent reaction would've meant a few bruises on the soldiers' side and deaths and rapes on the elves' side. So I can wish they'd have been all uppity and in the faces of the soldiers, but I'm not exactly going to blame them for not being so. Or do you blame blacks for not having the wherewithal as a people to rise up against their conditions as well after being emancipated from chattel slavery despite that segregation was enforced by law? Rapes happened back then as well.

This is person, though. If your daughter, sister, or mother are taken away to get raped (possible killed), and you do NOTHING then... you get the picture?

Sten... is generally a dick. I love him as a companion, but he's obviously racist against anyone non-qunari- and prejudiced against women as well. He can be re-educated, but still. His "elves are weaklings" phrases come in that context. He's been trained to kill for the qunari. It's Zevran's attitude toward alienage elves that's more worth quoting.

Not sure what Cyrion was supposed to say either. He wasn't telling the CE she sucked because she wasn't giving him grandkids.

CE: "Dad, I just got nearly raped."
Dad: "Great, no grandkids now then, right? Pfft. Useless..."

He was lamenting how events had turned out for her and the losses for both of them, and clearly he thinks having kids and joining in with family events like city elves do was something she had wanted as well.

Cyrion: "If... this is what the Maker planned for you, then I guess it's for the best. Your Mother would be pleased." (He's referring to her getting drafted into the Gray Wardens...)
CE: "You're not pleased?"
Cyrion: "I just wish there was another way. I dreamed of grandchildren, family gatherings, and... *sigh* I'm sorry. This isn't helping... Take care, my girl. Be safe. And wise. And, well, you know. We'll all miss you."

I mean, it might've been interesting for Cyrion to have some expert advice for rape trauma recipients, but... he's just a father who only hours ago was anticipating his daughter getting married to a man of whom you do recognize the virtues, no? He'd gone through whatever efforts to secure the best match for his daughter thinking he'd be bringing joy to her and setting her up for life... only to have all those plans dashed. Arranged marriage- bleh- but it wasn't like he was cursing that she was being let out of his dungeon too soon. "Curses, foiled again!" He's a family guy, not the "firebrand" Adaia was, so he's not seeing that forced recruitment to the Gray Wardens is what the CE was looking for- and it may very well not be. Even if the CE had spoken favorably of that with Duncan prior to the wedding, Cyrion wouldn't have known. And after all- his wife was killed being a "firebrand." What will now happen to his daughter?

If your daughter was raped, you would not react as such. All he had to do was give some words of comfort, father advice, and show that he is HAPPY that everything turned out for her best.

Valendrian has a similar reaction: "Well, I guess Duncan got his recruit after all." Is that the snarky comment you meant? It sounds to me like he's empathizing with the CE who was first subjected to Vaughan's brutality then forcibly subjected to Warden recruitment. All the conversation options after that opening remark are positive ending with farewell wishes. It's not like he says, "Stupid twit! Figures Adaia's kid would screw things up." He's on the CE's side, figuring this wasn't what the CE had wanted. Again- not sure what he's supposed to say. "Oh, you poor, poor girl..." They did make it out with only one of the abducted women raped, and the humans got a black eye for it they'll not soon forget... with a throng of human soldiers on their heels. Maybe he could've said something more complimentary about the Wardens or her becoming one than "I guess it's for the best," but he didn't say, "You know you'll suck as a Warden. Whatever- bye."

No, if you tell him Valendrian that you won't be sad to leave, he'll make a condsecending remark.

Soris though- yeah- and he starts considering Vaughan's bribe even if your CE doesn't (though he rejects the bribe if your CE considers it). But he does join Nelaros, no? So what if he wasn't the first to volunteer? He volunteered. No one else did. That counts for nothing?

I just don't come away with the same revulsion for alienage elves. They're not the most glorious people in DAO's world, very much second class citizens- even worse for dwarf commoners. You also get a sense of their ugly side when you see a group of elves beating up a human at the entrance later in the game- or the charlatan "beggar" scammer- or even those lame enough to trust the Tevinters without question- but they're not world destroyers. They're a beaten people who make the life they can in the squalor they've been afforded, and that they retain the family and community goodwill that they do is a strength. They could just as easily be as cutthroat as it gets in Dust Town.

Yeah, I probably shouldn't be so mad at them. However, a little protesting to the rape of their close friends wouldn't be so much to ask.

What irks me most about the CE origin is that Shianni gets hammered no matter what you do- raped regardless in the origin story and then killed in the epilogue. You actually have to not play Shianni's CE best friend if you want her to not get raped and survive at the end. Playing the origin at all condemns her. *grumble*

I hate rapists. I won't be shy about it, and I won't say why.

Every time I play CEF origins I go nuts. Cannot explain how angry I get.

[Secretlyapotato]

Would you try to save your own daughter if some men were trying to rape her? Her father didn't.

He's just a feeble old man who's never held a sword in his life. I'm sure he realizes that his involvement would only result in him dieing and getting more in the way than helping at all. It's better to let younger, healthier men handle it.

If your daughter was raped, you would not react as such. All he had to do was give some words of comfort, father advice, and show that he is HAPPY that everything turned out for her best.

She wasn't raped though, she just killed them and got away. The more pressing matter would be the fact that she has to leave him and enter the hard life of being a Grey Warden so she can avoid being executed for it.

[Bionuts]

Secretlyapotato wrote...

Would you try to save your own daughter if some men were trying to rape her? Her father didn't.

He's just a feeble old man who's never held a sword in his life. I'm sure he realizes that his involvement would only result in him dieing and getting more in the way than helping at all. It's better to let younger, healthier men handle it.

If your daughter was raped, you would not react as such. All he had to do was give some words of comfort, father advice, and show that he is HAPPY that everything turned out for her best.

She wasn't raped though, she just killed them and got away. The more pressing matter would be the fact that she has to leave him and enter the hard life of being a Grey Warden so she can avoid being executed for it.

He didn't involve himself, AT ALL. Soris tells you that everyone (elder, your father, even him) were just going to let it go, and Nelaros got angry at them for not trying to do anything about it.

She wasn't raped, but only because Nelaros decided to help. If he wasn't there, CEF gets raped and possibly killed. She had to fight her way out killing near 30 guards, and more than likely is traumatized by the whole situation. Do you honestly think any loving father wouldn't try to comfort their daughter/son in that kind of situation?

[Klidi]

Bionuts wrote...
I agree, mostly. The family should've have done whatever they could within their power. However, they didn't. No protesting, nothing.

And what, exactly, WAS in their power? Enlighten me, please. Vaughan already showed that that he wouldn't take any backtalk. In fact, he even ignored the Revered Mother. When they came the first time, Shianni protested and hit him - and he returned with soldiers. I'm not saying that she should have go with him - I'm saying there was NOTHING they could do.

Bionuts wrote...
This is person, though. If your daughter, sister, or mother are taken away to get raped (possible killed), and you do NOTHING then... you get the picture?

No, I don't. It happens in totalitarian regimes all the time. Elves in the game reacted in realistic way. Reality is different than a action movie about a superhero who kills all baddies and saves all victims, without as much as a scratch. The ugly and sad relity is that when you are in a position like these elves, you can't do anything.

You can go and get yourself killed. What an awesome heroism! Never mind that it won't end there and your relatives and friends will be persecuted as well, marked as a family of a traitor, maybe even imprisoned, raped and killed. The important thing is that you were heroic! Is that what you think?

Bionuts wrote...
Yeah, I probably shouldn't be so mad at them. However, a little protesting to the rape of their close friends wouldn't be so much to ask.

And what exactly would that achieve? You are angry with them that they remained level-headed and didn't start the riot that would get everyone killed? Really? Besides, it was another elf who said 'let's just let it happen' . Soris got angry at that "They have my sister!"  and Valendrian and Father agreed that something needs to be done. When then another elf offered help, they decided to go for the stealthy solution. What is bad about that?

[Bionuts]

Klidi wrote...

And what, exactly, WAS in their power? Enlighten me, please. Vaughan already showed that that he wouldn't take any backtalk. In fact, he even ignored the Revered Mother. When they came the first time, Shianni protested and hit him - and he returned with soldiers. I'm not saying that she should have go with him - I'm saying there was NOTHING they could do.

You suggest they just stand around? Your kid is being dragged off to be raped. Maybe we just grew up in different cultures, but in my family you would be disowned.

No, I don't. It happens in totalitarian regimes all the time. Elves in the game reacted in realistic way. Reality is different than a action movie about a superhero who kills all baddies and saves all victims, without as much as a scratch. The ugly and sad relity is that when you are in a position like these elves, you can't do anything.

You can go and get yourself killed. What an awesome heroism! Never mind that it won't end there and your relatives and friends will be persecuted as well, marked as a family of a traitor, maybe even imprisoned, raped and killed. The important thing is that you were heroic! Is that what you think?

It's not about being heroic. It's about protecting your family. If you can't protect your family, or raise them in a home that is relatively safe, don't have one. If a person is so selfish to have a family that can be raped, tortured, or killed without much thought, they're scum.

And what exactly would that achieve? You are angry with them that they remained level-headed and didn't start the riot that would get everyone killed? Really? Besides, it was another elf who said 'let's just let it happen' . Soris got angry at that "They have my sister!"  and Valendrian and Father agreed that something needs to be done. When then another elf offered help, they decided to go for the stealthy solution. What is bad about that?

I've never played a CEM, only a CEF. On the CEF playthrough, Soris tells you that the only person who decided to do anything was Nelaros, but everyone else said to wait out and let things be.

[Secretlyapotato]

He didn't involve himself, AT ALL. Soris tells you that everyone (elder, your father, even him) were just going to let it go, and Nelaros got angry at them for not trying to do anything about it.

According to Youtube, Soris simply says that Nelaros got angry at those who wanted to "hope for the best", and that Soris didn't know what to do. (understandable) He doesn't say "everyone". But the people who wanted to "hope for the best" had fears of exactly what ended up happening, the Arl slamming down on them. The entire alienage suffered a purge because of what Nelaros, Soris, and the CEF did.

And why does Cyrion "have" to involve himself? He would obviously only be good for getting himself killed. What if Cyrion was her mom instead? Would you say that this old lady who's never even held a sword before "has" to storm the Arl's base herself in attempt to save her daughter from being raped?

She wasn't raped, but only because Nelaros decided to help. If he wasn't there, CEF gets raped and possibly killed. She had to fight her way out killing near 30 guards, and more than likely is traumatized by the whole situation. Do you honestly think any loving father wouldn't try to comfort their daughter/son in that kind of situation?

Does it really matter what he said? It's not all about her almost being raped; it went from a happy day where his daughter was going to get married to her getting kidnapped, almost raped, her fiance getting killed, her about to be imprisoned and possibly executed for killing several soldiers and the Arl's son, and then her forced to leave the alienage in order to enter the hard and dangerous life of being a Grey Warden. The whole ordeal is hard to take in.

[Blazomancer]

"If a person is so selfish to have a family that can be raped, tortured, or killed without much thought, they're scum."

True, and similarly, if a person is so selfish to put the interest of an individual over a whole community, then they're scum as well. Either way they are scum.

You can run your rescue operation all you want; 99.999....% of the time you'll fail unless you are the mighty warden of course; if you somehow survive and stumble upon a Dalish clan, you and your family can live happily ever after knowing that as an aftermath, many other girls of your daughter's age were raped/killed and as a worst case scenario, the whole alienage was purged.


I believe some people in this world throughout history, didn't have the privilege to take the ideal decisions, just as it was in the Denerim alienage. You can only protest to someone who have ears, & if you remember during the timeline of the CE origin events, the arl of Denerim and most of the other prominient nobles were in or en route to Ostagar. Who would they have protested to? May be if Cailan were in Derenim, and I'm only speculating, may be they'd have tried to send word, although it's doubtful they would have got word through.

In short, I just want to say what Mousestalker above mentioned - it is not an easy decision to make when your own blood is involved. I don't know what is the right thing to do in such a situation, but I won't blame them for acting like they did.

[Klidi]

Bionuts wrote...
You suggest they just stand around? Your kid is being dragged off to be raped. Maybe we just grew up in different cultures, but in my family you would be disowned.

You repeatedly avoid answering the question. So what would your family do? Your daughter is taken into well-defended place full of soldiers. You are an fragile old man without any weapons, without means to get some, without any hope of help by police or anyone else. What do you do? I'm listening. Just please don't say "something" and "anything".

Bionuts wrote...
It's not about being heroic. It's about protecting your family. If you can't protect your family, or raise them in a home that is relatively safe, don't have one. If a person is so selfish to have a family that can be raped, tortured, or killed without much thought, they're scum.

Half of the world is a scum, then.

And what if there is a change of coup in the country, and the new ruler is a tyrant? What then? Should parents kill their kids, because they can't raise them in a "relatively safe home"? Should pregnant woman go to abortion and kill their babies, because otherwise they would be born into a dangerous, unfair world where they couldn't guarantee they wouldn't be raped? 
DAO is set in history, few centuries back compared to our world. There were no reliable ways to avoid pregnancy.  Should all elves stop having sex and volunarily extinct? That is your solution?

Bionuts wrote...
I've never played a CEM, only a CEF. On the CEF playthrough, Soris tells you that the only person who decided to do anything was Nelaros, but everyone else said to wait out and let things be.

Then play male Warden and see it for yourself. Don't rely just on what someone else said.

Modifié par Klidi, 03 juillet 2013 - 03:11 .

[mousestalker]

An origin only play through of the male city elf might answer some of your concerns. Save early and often and try differing conversation options.

TL,DNR: What Klidi said

Modifié par mousestalker, 03 juillet 2013 - 03:17 .

[Jordan]

Since I went ahead and sold my friends down the rape river, it would have been hypocritical of me to be anything more or less than indifferent towards the reaction of my kin.

I don't mean to sound insensitive or cold, but I think people make a mountain out of the proverbial rape hill.  What's a handful of lowly stature girls in receipt of surprise sex in the grand scheme of things?  There are plenty of people, innocents included, brutally murdered in DA:O, and no one bats an eyelid.

I think that a lot of people who play this game need some real life experience and need to get their priorities straight.  Seriously, faced with rape or certain death, I'd save them the trouble, drop my pants voluntarily and bend over.

You may not agree, but there are worse things than rape.

Modifié par ReluctantGangster, 03 juillet 2013 - 07:31 .

[Bionuts]

[quote]Klidi wrote...

[quote]Bionuts wrote...
You repeatedly avoid answering the question. So what would your family do? Your daughter is taken into well-defended place full of soldiers. You are an fragile old man without any weapons, without means to get some, without any hope of help by police or anyone else. What do you do? I'm listening. Just please don't say "something" and "anything".

We would have murdered Vaughn before he went back to the Royal Palace. And yes murder and violence is prevalent in my family, so the situation would have never happened in the first place.

Half of the world is a scum, then.

And what if there is a change of coup in the country, and the new ruler is a tyrant? What then? Should parents kill their kids, because they can't raise them in a "relatively safe home"? Should pregnant woman go to abortion and kill their babies, because otherwise they would be born into a dangerous, unfair world where they couldn't guarantee they wouldn't be raped? 
DAO is set in history, few centuries back compared to our world. There were no reliable ways to avoid pregnancy.  Should all elves stop having sex and volunarily extinct? That is your solution?

How about not getting married? How about moving to a DIFFERENT country. Whatever it takes for your children to be safe. That's how my family does it. The parents sacrifice everything for the safety, and wellbeing of their children.

Then play male Warden and see it for yourself. Don't rely just on what someone else said.


[/quote]

[Bionuts]

ReluctantGangster wrote...

Since I went ahead and sold my friends down the rape river, it would have been hypocritical of me to be anything more or less than indifferent towards the reaction of my kin.

I don't mean to sound insensitive or cold, but I think people make a mountain out of the proverbial rape hill.  What's a handful of lowly stature girls in receipt of surprise sex in the grand scheme of things?  There are plenty of people, innocents included, brutally murdered in DA:O, and no one bats an eyelid.

I think that a lot of people who play this game need some real life experience and need to get their priorities straight.  Seriously, faced with rape or certain death, I'd save them the trouble, drop my pants voluntarily and bend over.

You may not agree, but there are worse things than rape.

I don't know how much experience you have with life, so I won't go there. But I've seen death, minor torture, suicide, and many really crappy things in my life. These are serious things that have almost ruined families.

There are many worse things than rape, I agree. Many of those things are actually in this game. All of them give me the jitters.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Bionuts wrote...

We would have murdered Vaughn before he went back to the Royal Palace. And yes murder and violence is prevalent in my family, so the situation would have never happened in the first place.

So...you also would have been fine with the city guard not only slaughtering your family for murdering the son of the city's ruler, but also possibly purging your entire home town as a warning to everyone else? That would have included outright slaughter since you have no weapons or armour, more rape, and setting houses on fire. Soris' parents were killed in the last purge. Soldiers shoved them back into the burning house.

Oh, and don't think that killing him before he goes back to the palace means no one would blame the elves.

How about not getting married? How about moving to a DIFFERENT country. Whatever it takes for your children to be safe. That's how my family does it. The parents sacrifice everything for the safety, and wellbeing of their children.

Moving to a different country? Where elves are treated as equals? Where do you suggest? The lore outright tells us that elves who attempt to live outside the 'security' of cities are targetted by opportunists. Run to the Dalish? A different kind of danger, even if you succeed in finding them.

I think you're overestimating just how dangerous living in Denerim is based on one or two scenes. Terrible things happen in every country. Nowhere is completely safe, least of all in a world where demons and darkspawn exist.

[Bionuts]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...
So...you also would have been fine with the city guard not only slaughtering your family for murdering the son of the city's ruler, but also possibly purging your entire home town as a warning to everyone else? That would have included outright slaughter since you have no weapons or armour, more rape, and setting houses on fire. Soris' parents were killed in the last purge. Soldiers shoved them back into the burning house.

Oh, and don't think that killing him before he goes back to the palace means no one would blame the elves.

I'm just telling you what my family would do. It doesn't take much thinking to realize that Vaughn would retaliate to Shianni.

However, the best outcome would be to simply restrain Vaughn and his buddies when they got there. If the city is so dangerous that you can't use light aggression or compromise to defend your family againt rape, murder, or torture then it's not the place you want to be.

Vaughn is not a little kid. More than likely, he has raped other elves, as well. Nobody was surprised by it, anyhow.

Moving to a different country? Where elves are treated as equals? Where do you suggest? The lore outright tells us that elves who attempt to live outside the 'security' of cities are targetted by opportunists. Run to the Dalish? A different kind of danger, even if you succeed in finding them.

I think you're overestimating just how dangerous living in Denerim is based on one or two scenes. Terrible things happen in every country. Nowhere is completely safe, least of all in a world where demons and darkspawn exist.

The Dalish accept city elves who are willing to accept their ways. It's mentioned, you can even find one in the Dalish camp who will tell you this. CEF's father said he wanted to join the Dalish, but decided to marry instead.

I'm not overestimating it, either. Loghain even says that the alienage has rotting corpses in their homes. Purges, rape, and murder of elves are not responded to in a way that would convince me that it's ever safe.

I use my family as an example, because they did in fact go out of their way for their children. My parents, and my mother's side of the family made many sacrifices. They all moved together across country, living closely together, if you need to job all you've to do is ask and you'll have many different places set up for you, or if you need a place to live, someone to talk to, etc. Nothing rich, but the family will always be there for you, and will protect you at any cost. If you're out of line with someone in the family, you will be get a beating, though. And there is no discrimination. When I got out of line with my mother a couple of years ago, you better believe I was threatened.

Modifié par Bionuts, 04 juillet 2013 - 04:21 .

[Djonin]

Bionuts wrote...

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...
I use my family as an example, because they did in fact go out of their way for their children. My parents, and my mother's side of the family made many sacrifices. They all moved together across country, living closely together, if you need to job all you've to do is ask and you'll have many different places set up for you, or if you need a place to live, someone to talk to, etc. Nothing rich, but the family will always be there for you, and will protect you at any cost. If you're out of line with someone in the family, you will be get a beating, though. And there is no discrimination. When I got out of line with my mother a couple of years ago, you better believe I was threatened.[/b]

Here's the issue - your family is a modern, American, 21st century family, raised on 21st century American values, and is significantly better off financially than a family of what are literally recently freed slaves. You need to understand - while modern Americans have a strong sense of freedom and defiance due to their origins as a rebellion, medieval serfdom was a life of servitude and quietness. You just didn't attract too much attention to yourself, lest you become the target of those with far more power. the CE's father was an old man who has lived in this way for a very long time, and his wife was murdered for thinking differently. He can't just grow a spine on command, especially given how tragically common the events of the day were. In fact, the very act of you murdering all those people to escape was the only shocking and unusual event that day.

It's always pissed me off when people approach medieval fantasy with modern morals and ethics: "good" characters always object to slavery, and believe in freedom from tyrany. Just once, I'd like to see a game or movie where the hero was a hero by the standards of his time, not by the standards of ours. 

[Angrywolves]

Sounds like the tc is getting too immersed in his roleplay. I never played female city elf. Did play a male though. Rape is a terrible thing so yes there should be punishment for the perps.
But it is a game.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Bionuts wrote...

I'm just telling you what my family would do. It doesn't take much thinking to realize that Vaughn would retaliate to Shianni.

However, the best outcome would be to simply restrain Vaughn and his buddies when they got there. If the city is so dangerous that you can't use light aggression or compromise to defend your family againt rape, murder, or torture then it's not the place you want to be.

Not that all societies are equal in our modern world, but we're talking about a pseudo-medieval society here, the sort where merely laying hands on a higher caste could be considered a punishable crime. Another NPC tells you that in Orlais, the chavaliers are by law allowed to force themselves on those in a lower caste because it's their right as nobles.

Vaughan and his buddies are Fereldan nobles. The elves are lower than the human peasantry, and the city guards are in the employ of Vaughan's own father.

Let's assume your PC and the elves apprehend Vaughan and co, and tie them up. A sizable force of armed guards come into the alienage and demand their release. What's your next move?

Vaughn is not a little kid. More than likely, he has raped other elves, as well. Nobody was surprised by it, anyhow.

He has definitely done it before. If you play as a male CE you even get told about one of the incidents. That girl ended up dead in the harbour.

The Dalish accept city elves who are willing to accept their ways. It's mentioned, you can even find one in the Dalish camp who will tell you this. CEF's father said he wanted to join the Dalish, but decided to marry instead.

They do, sometimes*, but you still have to find them and not all the city elves who run away from home either reach them safely or choose to stay once they learn what kind of life it is. Some manage it, but going from a city life to one constantly on the move in the wilderness is a huge culture shock. You're also dealing with people who will attack the clans--bandits and templars, not to mention the beasts that live in the wilds. It's still dangerous, and again you still have to *find* them. On foot.

*I say sometimes because of a story Alarith, the CE shopkeeper, can tell to a male CE. His family fled slavery in the Tevinter Imperium with some humans. On the way, they were attacked by bandits and then the Dalish. All the humans were killed, as were his family. The Dalish ransacked the belongings, and discovered him alive. They didn't kill him as he was an elf, but they didn't help him on his way either. They left him there, with the corpses of the slain.

He was a child.

I'm not overestimating it, either. Loghain even says that the alienage has rotting corpses in their homes. Purges, rape, and murder of elves are not responded to in a way that would convince me that it's ever safe.

Compared to other medieval slums, demons and maleficarum notwithstanding?

I use my family as an example, because they did in fact go out of their way for their children. My parents, and my mother's side of the family made many sacrifices. They all moved together across country, living closely together, if you need to job all you've to do is ask and you'll have many different places set up for you, or if you need a place to live, someone to talk to, etc. Nothing rich, but the family will always be there for you, and will protect you at any cost. If you're out of line with someone in the family, you will be get a beating, though. And there is no discrimination. When I got out of line with my mother a couple of years ago, you better believe I was threatened.

All I can say to that is the culture of family can be vastly different between societies, eras and individual families. Not all families are like yours, for many reasons, such as those Djonin mentioned above.

Picking up and moving is easy, at least here in Australia. I have a car to carry everything, a phone to organise things at my destination, bank accounts to keep my money safe and police-patrolled roads.

In Ferelden, as a city elf? You'd either be carrying everything by hand, or raising the money to pay for porters or a cart, an animal to pull it, feed to keep it alive. And since you're an elf, you might end up having to pay more than a human would. Will you pay for mercenaries to keep you safe on the road? Will they be trustworthy? You don't have weapons; it's illegal for elves to possess them. Have you gotten permission from the city to leave Denerim? You need that. If you're moving to another established city, do you have permission to go there? You need that too. Or are you leaving everything behind and running for the forest? How're your survival skills after a lifetime of city living with a roof over your head? No weapons to hunt with, probably little idea what's poisonous and what's not, and you get the idea.

It's not impossible, but it's not simple.

Modifié par Shadow of Light Dragon, 05 juillet 2013 - 07:54 .

[Joy Divison]

As a student of history, half is me is sad that some people just can not appreciate that for most of human history, the political, social, and cultural dynamics made acts of futile resistance the OP wants to see so impossible and impractical it just didn't happen.

Half of me is happy many of us live in a relatively privileged situation where such acts can even not just be imagined, but even seen as noble.

Modifié par Joy Divison, 05 juillet 2013 - 05:12 .

[Bionuts]

Djonin wrote...
Here's the issue - your family is a modern, American, 21st century family, raised on 21st century American values, and is significantly better off financially than a family of what are literally recently freed slaves. You need to understand - while modern Americans have a strong sense of freedom and defiance due to their origins as a rebellion, medieval serfdom was a life of servitude and quietness. You just didn't attract too much attention to yourself, lest you become the target of those with far more power. the CE's father was an old man who has lived in this way for a very long time, and his wife was murdered for thinking differently. He can't just grow a spine on command, especially given how tragically common the events of the day were. In fact, the very act of you murdering all those people to escape was the only shocking and unusual event that day.

It's always pissed me off when people approach medieval fantasy with modern morals and ethics: "good" characters always object to slavery, and believe in freedom from tyrany. Just once, I'd like to see a game or movie where the hero was a hero by the standards of his time, not by the standards of ours. 

Death is irrelevant. My own brother died a brutal death to protect his wife and family, I'll accept no excuses. And no, my family is not rich. They grew up in a very racist community where they had to live in dirty homes, and policeman could shoot children. There were no excuses, and there is much death in my family.