46 réponses à ce sujet

[Bionuts]

Joy Divison wrote...

As a student of history, half is me is sad that some people just can not appreciate that for most of human history, the political, social, and cultural dynamics made acts of futile resistance the OP wants to see so impossible and impractical it just didn't happen.

Half of me is happy many of us live in a relatively privileged situation where such acts can even not just be imagined, but even seen as noble.

You support submission? Many people have died horrible deaths for the opposite because they wouldn't submit.

I'll stand by what I believe, I did not grow up in a herpy derpy culture. My family simply instilled these values in me. and they grew up with everything set against them.

I already had this conversation with my family and we agreed that any man who would let his daughter get raped is scum (a lot more things).

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Bionuts wrote...

Joy Divison wrote...

As a student of history, half is me is sad that some people just can not appreciate that for most of human history, the political, social, and cultural dynamics made acts of futile resistance the OP wants to see so impossible and impractical it just didn't happen.

Half of me is happy many of us live in a relatively privileged situation where such acts can even not just be imagined, but even seen as noble.

You support submission?

She did not say that. Do not suggest that she is.

Many people have died horrible deaths for the opposite because they wouldn't submit.

Yes, they have. In Thedas, it's the Dalish who have the saying "Never again will we submit."

As a culture, the city elves are not the Dalish.

I'll stand by what I believe, I did not grow up in a herpy derpy culture. My family simply instilled these values in me. and they grew up with everything set against them.

No one's telling you to change your beliefs. We're telling you that it's inappropriate to believe Cyrion Tabris must share those beliefs to a tee when he comes from an entirely different background to you, with entirely different resources and upbringing. You can be angry at him all you like, but it does not mean your anger is entirely justified.

I already had this conversation with my family and we agreed that any man who would let his daughter get raped is scum (a lot more things).

'Let' is an interesting word, because it implies the father has any kind of power to prevent it from happening.

If you believe a father is scum for not trying to save his daughter, even when there's a gun pointed at his head, I don't think there's anything more for me to say except that I'm glad my family thinks differently.

[Bionuts]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...
Yes, they have. In Thedas, it's the Dalish who have the saying "Never again will we submit."

As a culture, the city elves are not the Dalish.

Irrelevant. My family grew up in culture that tried to crush them, but they did not submit.

No one's telling you to change your beliefs. We're telling you that it's inappropriate to believe Cyrion Tabris must share those beliefs to a tee when he comes from an entirely different background to you, with entirely different resources and upbringing. You can be angry at him all you like, but it does not mean your anger is entirely justified.

He should have not been such selfish scum to have children in such a place. So yeah, my anger is justified.

'Let' is an interesting word, because it implies the father has any kind of power to prevent it from happening.

If you believe a father is scum for not trying to save his daughter, even when there's a gun pointed at his head, I don't think there's anything more for me to say except that I'm glad my family thinks differently.

No gun was pointed at his head. No protesting, or even dragging his daughter to the house an locking it up. No one is forcing him to live there. Hell, 2 people from the alienage alreadyd left an joine the Dalish. No excuses.

I can understan the logic behin what you guys are saying, but it doesn't fit for a parent that puts their childrens' lives before their own.

Modifié par Bionuts, 05 juillet 2013 - 10:48 .

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

*shrugs and leaves thread*

[Joy Divison]

Bionuts wrote...

Joy Divison wrote...

As a student of history, half is me is sad that some people just can not appreciate that for most of human history, the political, social, and cultural dynamics made acts of futile resistance the OP wants to see so impossible and impractical it just didn't happen.

Half of me is happy many of us live in a relatively privileged situation where such acts can even not just be imagined, but even seen as noble.

You support submission? Many people have died horrible deaths for the opposite because they wouldn't submit.

I'll stand by what I believe, I did not grow up in a herpy derpy culture. My family simply instilled these values in me. and they grew up with everything set against them.

I already had this conversation with my family and we agreed that any man who would let his daughter get raped is scum (a lot more things).

I can see having a discussion with you is going to be futile.

1.  I didn't say or imply that I support submission.

2.  History tells me if you were a Jew living in Warsaw during 1942, a black living in Antebellum Alabama, a peasant in Peter the Great's Russia, an urban dweller in a city who resisted Genghis Khan's horde, or a Christian in Nero's Rome, you wouldn't be nearly as tough and defiant as you think you would be.  And I got news for you, the Christians in Nero's Rome were hardcore.  All the people in this thread who disagreed with you do *not* support submission, merely recognize that history tells us there are contextual issues that complicate heroic acts of defiance that you are advocating.

3.  The CE's father did not let his daughter get raped.

[Bionuts]

Joy Divison wrote...
I can see having a discussion with you is going to be futile.

1.  I didn't say or imply that I support submission.

2.  History tells me if you were a Jew living in Warsaw during 1942, a black living in Antebellum Alabama, a peasant in Peter the Great's Russia, an urban dweller in a city who resisted Genghis Khan's horde, or a Christian in Nero's Rome, you wouldn't be nearly as tough and defiant as you think you would be.  And I got news for you, the Christians in Nero's Rome were hardcore.  All the people in this thread who disagreed with you do *not* support submission, merely recognize that history tells us there are contextual issues that complicate heroic acts of defiance that you are advocating.

3.  The CE's father did not let his daughter get raped.

1. Well, that's exactly what the CEs are doing.

2. Many African-Americans fought back. (refuse to talk about Jews for obvious reasons, please)

I'm looking at the situation as such:

1. We know the Dalish accept CEs.

2. We know 2 CEs from the Denerim that joined the Dalish.

3. We know CEF's father decided to have a family in a craphole of a city instead of joining the Dalish (he said so). Otherwise, it would be best not to bring a girl into the world with a scary chance of having to get rape, killed, etc.

I know the perspective you're coming from, how it ties to what you're saying, etc. I can even respect it to an extent.

My perspective, and how my family thinks is not the same as yours. Our view is that as a parent it is your duty to give your life for your children. Everyone (husban, wife) work. Nothing else is accepte unless you're dealing with some disability. Death, pain, are irrelevent when it comes to protecting your children. It's not just words, either.

I've already riske my life to protect my family (someone specific). I've already been close to death many times. Im not tough, heroic, or anything like that. It's just normal for a person to go all out when it comes to their family. If you were in that situation you woul protect your family as well.

[Joy Divison]

Bionuts wrote...

1. Well, that's exactly what the CEs are doing.

In your narrow opinion that does not recognize the contextual issues.  That does not mean i support submission (which you accused me of) nor does it mean the CEs are submitting.

2. Many African-Americans fought back.

Name ten.  I mean if there are "many" of the millions of blacks in Antebellum southern society who fought back it should not be all that difficult.  If by chance you do happen to come up with ten, consider just that, you came up with ten out of millions who did what they could to survive day to day and did the best they could to preserve their dignity, their traditions, maybe comfort their fellow slave, in an almost impossible situation.  You might not think that is resistance or fighting back.  To me, that's a courage and a determination I am not sure I possess.

I'm looking at the situation as such:

1. We know the Dalish accept CEs.

2. We know 2 CEs from the Denerim that joined the Dalish.

3. We know CEF's father decided to have a family in a craphole of a city instead of joining the Dalish (he said so).

It's been awhile since I've played the game and read up on the codexes, but I got the distict feeling that there was a very REAL reason Thedas has "city elves" and "dalish elves" whereas you seem to think of them as "elves" who live in relative harmony.  I know that when my CE went to the Dalish camp, she was treated as a piece of garbage and when I responded "hey we are all sister elves" I was basically told I wasn't and might as well been a human.  And I do remember overhearing some CEs thinking the Dalish were radical nut-jobs who were apt to turn a non-dalish into a arrow pincushion - which is actually not too far from the mark.  

Otherwise, it would be best not to bring a girl into the world with a scary chance of having to get rape, killed, etc.

Wait, what?  The bad humans like to throw garbage on you so you won't have kids?  Now that to me sounds like submisssion.

My perspective, and how my family thinks is not the same as yours. Our view is that as a parent it is your duty to give your life for your children. Everyone (husban, wife) work. Nothing else is accepte unless you're dealing with some disability. Death, pain, are irrelevent when it comes to protecting your children. It's not just words, either.

I've already riske my life to protect my family (someone specific). I've already been close to death many times. Im not tough, heroic, or anything like that. It's just normal for a person to go all out when it comes to their family. If you were in that situation you woul protect your family as well.

We get how you feel.  We are trying to tell you that you are seeing things in a vacuum and ignoring contextual issues.  Why don't you Google "Sophie's Choice" and get back to us.

Modifié par Joy Divison, 06 juillet 2013 - 01:33 .

[Bionuts]

Joy Divison wrote...
In your narrow opinion that does not recognize the contextual issues.  That does not mean i support submission (which you accused me of) nor does it mean the CEs are submitting.

I understan context. I'm not saying the Elves are horrible, and should be killed. I'm saying they submit. That cannot be denied.

Name ten.  I mean if there are "many" of the millions of blacks in Antebellum southern society who fought back it should not be all that difficult.  If by chance you do happen to come up with ten, consider just that, you came up with ten out of millions who did what they could to survive day to day and did the best they could to preserve their dignity, their traditions, maybe comfort their fellow slave, in an almost impossible situation.  You might not think that is resistance or fighting back.  To me, that's a courage and a determination I am not sure I possess.

I don't have to name 10. Wtf are you even talking about? Many African-Americans fought back. You're not an idiot. Fighting back doesn't always mean going on riots. If you dd your best for your family, sacrifice, an keep them safe then it's enough if it's all you can do.

It's been awhile since I've played the game and read up on the codexes, but I got the distict feeling that there was a very REAL reason Thedas has "city elves" and "dalish elves" whereas you seem to think of them as "elves" who live in relative harmony.  I know that when my CE went to the Dalish camp, she was treated as a piece of garbage and when I responded "hey we are all sister elves" I was basically told I wasn't and might as well been a human.  And I do remember overhearing some CEs thinking the Dalish were radical nut-jobs who were apt to turn a non-dalish into a arrow pincushion - which is actually not too far from the mark.  

You're wrong. The Dalish accept CE. Before you accept their ways they will see you in a bad light because they believe you've submitted to humans and their culture.

Lanaya, the elf you save in the Brecilian forest are both former CE. We know of 2 CE who joined the Dalish from the Alienage. Alarith the CE was even saved by the Dalish.

Wait, what?  The bad humans like to throw garbage on you so you won't have kids?  Now that to me sounds like submisssion.

Rape, torture, purges, etc. Brining a chil into a worl where there's  scary chance of those things happening to them is stupid.

We get how you feel.  We are trying to tell you that you are seeing things in a vacuum and ignoring contextual issues.  Why don't you Google "Sophie's Choice" and get back to us.

The problem is not me ignoring context. The problem is you failing to understand that we have different values. I already understan what you're saying, but that logic won't work in a situation where children are as valued as in my family. We simply value children more than you.

Your logic only applies if the parent isn't willing to sacrifice everything for their children.

I am projecting our values, our morality, etc., into the situation. I don't excuse, sympathize, but destest the kind of person CE's father is. That doesn't mean I fail to unerstan his actions.

Modifié par Bionuts, 06 juillet 2013 - 09:57 .

[Joy Divison]

*shrugs and leaves thread*

[Bionuts]

Joy Divison wrote...

*shrugs and leaves thread*

There's nothing complicated about what you're saying. I get it.

You fail to unerstand how logic works. Different goals, motives, morals, values, etc., will lead to 2 people doing different things in the same situation.

My motives, goals, and values simply differ from that of the CE's father. I don't agree with his morality, but understan how his actions make sense to him.

I'm not ingoring context. I simply disagree with the morality behind his (what I vew to be) incompetent parenting.

[Joy Divison]

Whoa wait. I fail to understand how logic works? No. I and the other posters who have pointed out the consequences of the futile act of defiance that you deem competent parenting will have for the daughter, the parent, and the hundreds of other elves who will have to suffer the consequences. That is precisely what understanding logic is.

And you have *ZERO* none, nada, nil, zilch, null basis to make the claim that you value children more than me.

You keep insisting you understand context, but I don't think you do. I asked you to name any of the "many" blacks that you claimed fought back against the system and you weakly claimed you "didn't have to" and then repeated your assertion. Yes, you do "have to." You made a claim, you have to back it up. I'll tell you why you won't: because you are simply making stuff up that you'd *like* to believe as it fits your morality and your argument - hallmarks of somebody who does not want to consider context.

If you are going to credit antebellum blacks for "Fighting back doesn't always mean going on riots. If you do your best for your family, sacrifice, an keep them safe then it's enough if it's all you can do" when their kids are taken away, they are raped, beaten, humiliated, and, let me repeat poster who values family above all, their KIDS ARE TAKEN AWAY AND SOLD, then your damning the city elves rings very hallow.

And I'm not wrong about the Dalish. You are under the impression that it is Dalish policy to rescue City Elves, that it is a frequent occurrence, or that it is a viable option for City Elves to run off and join the join them. In the tribes we encounter there is, what, at most 1 non-dalish? And for your information the Dalish were not trying to save Alarith. They didn't know he was there until afterwards and *left* him there. Yeah, the Dalish "saved" him...that's why we find him in the Denerim Alienage saying it is "everything that is worth fighting for"!

Your "argument" is basically any CE parent who does not pack up and leave Denerim - with no weapons, no knowledge of the topography, ignorant to the dangerous flora and predatory wildlife, no survival skills whatsoever, and not knowing where the Dalish even are - is a 'selfish scum'. Yeah, but you understand context 

We are definitely done here.

Modifié par Joy Divison, 07 juillet 2013 - 04:52 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Two total, one per tribe. We see Pol among Marethari's tribe, and a nameless City Elf refugee in Zathrian's camp if you don't kill them all. If it was a viable option for the majority of elves, we would expect to see far more than that.

[Bionuts]

Joy Divison wrote...

Whoa wait. I fail to understand how logic works? No. I and the other posters who have pointed out the consequences of the futile act of defiance that you deem competent parenting will have for the daughter, the parent, and the hundreds of other elves who will have to suffer the consequences. That is precisely what understanding logic is.

Because her father did not know of the violence in the city, nor of his wife's death.If he was helbent on having a family then he should have thought the situation through. His wife kille, his daughter almost rape, her fiance' killed, etc. All things that probably have happen before.

You cannot expect everyone to have the same morals, values, traitions than you. That is where you fail to understand logic. Maybe if I was an incompetent, selfish, parent I'd make a last stand, kill Vaughn, leave the city with my daughter, etc. As in I'd let a thousand people die in the place of my daughter getting rape. Someone else will let their daughter get raped as in the place of a thousan people dying. 2 similar situation, 2 different goals, 2 different solutions.

And you have *ZERO* none, nada, nil, zilch, null basis to make the claim that you value children more than me.

I may not love them more than you, but I value their lives higher than you.

You keep insisting you understand context, but I don't think you do. I asked you to name any of the "many" blacks that you claimed fought back against the system and you weakly claimed you "didn't have to" and then repeated your assertion. Yes, you do "have to." You made a claim, you have to back it up. I'll tell you why you won't: because you are simply making stuff up that you'd *like* to believe as it fits your morality and your argument - hallmarks of somebody who does not want to consider context.

If you are going to credit antebellum blacks for "Fighting back doesn't always mean going on riots. If you do your best for your family, sacrifice, an keep them safe then it's enough if it's all you can do" when their kids are taken away, they are raped, beaten, humiliated, and, let me repeat poster who values family above all, their KIDS ARE TAKEN AWAY AND SOLD, then your damning the city elves rings very hallow.

I'm talking about African-Americans in general. You're focusing on something very specific. I know most did not fight back, but we might get banne if we talk too much it. I'll concede.

And I'm not wrong about the Dalish. You are under the impression that it is Dalish policy to rescue City Elves, that it is a frequent occurrence, or that it is a viable option for City Elves to run off and join the join them. In the tribes we encounter there is, what, at most 1 non-dalish? And for your information the Dalish were not trying to save Alarith. They didn't know he was there until afterwards and *left* him there. Yeah, the Dalish "saved" him...that's why we find him in the Denerim Alienage saying it is "everything that is worth fighting for"!

Your "argument" is basically any CE parent who does not pack up and leave Denerim - with no weapons, no knowledge of the topography, ignorant to the dangerous flora and predatory wildlife, no survival skills whatsoever, and not knowing where the Dalish even are - is a 'selfish scum'. Yeah, but you understand context 

2 in the Breclian Forest quest, 1 in the Origins quest I believe.

I'll concede on Alarith.

I know that in Dragon Age 2, you can even get a half-human into the Dalish clan.

We are definitely done here.

Just so you know, I understan what you're saying. My family is simply the type that would die or let others die in the stead of their children being rape or dying. It's extreme, but violence is not taboo to us.

Modifié par Bionuts, 07 juillet 2013 - 10:07 .

[Corker]

I'm really glad my parents had me, even though my father cannot guarantee that I won't be raped someday.

WTH.

Edit: If OP is really serious about preventing sexual violence, I'd encourage him (getting the pronoun from his profile) to look into modern feminist thought, either scholarly or popular, on rape culture, and how educated men can stand up to knock it down.  The responsibility for preventing rape falls on the rapist, who shouldn't be doing the raping - not on the victim, not on the victim's loved ones.  

You want to stop rapes? Don't rape - and hold other people accountable when they do, or when they joke about it, or when they participate in practices that demean and objectify others, or ones that excuse sexualized violence.  Support victims when they do come forward - and do some reading to understand what kind of support they actually need, instead of whatever thing comes into your head to say.  Make it harder to get away with it, easier to report it, easier to prosecute it.

That's harder than threatening imaginary rapists with deadly violence, but it has the benefit of actually helping.

Modifié par Corker, 07 juillet 2013 - 04:21 .

[Bionuts]

Corker wrote...

I'm really glad my parents had me, even though my father cannot guarantee that I won't be raped someday.

Sure, but if your father brought you up in a city where rape is very, very, common... an he doesn't try his absolute best to protect you then you woul be resentful against him.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

And you've gleaned this insight into the mind of all rape victims everywhere...how?

Modifié par Shadow of Light Dragon, 08 juillet 2013 - 02:57 .

[Arishooky]

@Bionuts
Sorry for the twenty day pump but OP, how can you tell other posters that they fail to understand logic, when you don't understand it yourself? You tell joy division that not everyone can be expected to have the same morals and values, but this whole thread is you being upset with the characters for not having the same morals as you.

[Joy Divison]

@Faerunner - thanks for shedding light on the elves. Sometimes I forget how well thought out the Dragon Age setting is bc/ DA:2 kind of disappointment me.