143 réponses à ce sujet

[LaztRezort]

David Gaider wrote...

Fexelea wrote...
I can see the potential PR debacle brewing...

Seeing as I've already posted this fact in the past, and I don't see why it would suddenly be a problem now, I really doubt it. Am I missing something?

I think (hope?) Fex was joking.  However, after seeing some of the stuff on Fox "news", perhaps not...

[Atcherseid]

David Gaider wrote...

Atcherseid wrote...
I wonder if they were thinking of the European Jewish ghettoes when they wrote the Elven alienage. I see some similarites -- a minority group largely restricted to a certain quarter of the city, where they keep their traditions alive.

The medieval Jewish ghettos were the original inspiration behind the alienages, yes. It grew to encompass other things, of course, but all of Thedas started as a fictionalized version of European history, so that is indeed where it began.

Thanks. And in hopes of setting this thread on a slightly more scholarly course, I have recently been reading about golems. Specificaly an interesting book titled "The Golem: A new translation of the classic play and selected short stories," by Joachim Neugroschel (WW Norton). The golem has passed into common mythology, but its origins were in 16th century Prague in a Jewish community that was, in the earliest definition, a ghetto.

Modifié par Atcherseid, 18 janvier 2010 - 04:25 .

[Rythuse]

David Gaider wrote...

Err... let's not forget that there were Jewish ghettos in medieval times. That's what they were called. Unless someone seriously wishes to advocate that the word "Jewish" is a problem, let's keep the overreaction to a minimum, shall we?

Fexelea wrote...
I can see the potential PR debacle brewing...

Seeing as I've already posted this fact in the past, and I don't see why it would suddenly be a problem now, I really doubt it. Am I missing something?

your not missing anything important, due to the large amount of racism and prejudice that this world has always has some people are sensitive about it,  no one actually said anything offensive about jews or jewish comunities

[Fexelea]

LaztRezort wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

Fexelea wrote...
I can see the potential PR debacle brewing...

Seeing as I've already posted this fact in the past, and I don't see why it would suddenly be a problem now, I really doubt it. Am I missing something?

I think (hope?) Fex was joking.  However, after seeing some of the stuff on Fox "news", perhaps not...

Kaccchhinn!

[Atcherseid]

David Gaider wrote...

Err... let's not forget that there were Jewish ghettos in medieval times. That's what they were called. Unless someone seriously wishes to advocate that the word "Jewish" is a problem, let's keep the overreaction to a minimum, shall we?

Fexelea wrote...
I can see the potential PR debacle brewing...

Seeing as I've already posted this fact in the past, and I don't see why it would suddenly be a problem now, I really doubt it. Am I missing something?

I, goyim that I am, learned some interesting things from that Wikipedia article. I even learned about our game. It says: "Jewish ghettos in Europe existed because Jews were viewed as alien due to being a cultural minority ..."

Alien ... Alienage.

[Rythuse]

Atcherseid wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

Atcherseid wrote...
I wonder if they were thinking of the European Jewish ghettoes when they wrote the Elven alienage. I see some similarites -- a minority group largely restricted to a certain quarter of the city, where they keep their traditions alive.

The medieval Jewish ghettos were the original inspiration behind the alienages, yes. It grew to encompass other things, of course, but all of Thedas started as a fictionalized version of European history, so that is indeed where it began.

Thanks. And in hopes of setting this thread on a slightly more scholarly course, I have recently been reading about golems. Specificaly an interesting book titled "The Golem: A new translation of the classic play and selected short stories," by Joachim Neugroschel (WW Norton). The golem has passed into common mythology, but its origins were in 16th century Prague in a Jewish community that was, in the earliest definition, a ghetto.

i've heard that some where before this whole post gets me wondering about other ethnicities/races and such in dragon age that are based on that of ones in real life.

[Atcherseid]

+1 to this.  I personally don't agree with the OP all that much, but crying because he used -Jewish- ghetto instead of a generic one (which isn't the same thing) is pretty sad, man.   I didn't hear you screaming when the Elves were compared to American Indians, or the Japanese, or "Everyone America has ever wronged"  (that's a real thread) or America, etc, etc, etc.....

Get over it.

Thanks, SOD. (May I call you SOD? You're the funniest poster on the board, btw.) I believe that part of the problem is -- as you pointed out -- that many people do not understand the origninal meaning of "ghetto."

[Titius.Vibius]

Atcherseid wrote...

Titius.Vibius wrote...

Atcherseid wrote...

Titius.Vibius wrote...

Why do you have to compare that to the jewish ghetto? Anyway, this is bitter and please stop with the implied bigotry. It is a slum, a ghetto, no way similar to the jewish ghettos of world war 2.

I'm not Jewish and I resent the comment on "implied bigotry." There are a lot of historical parallels in this game, and I thought this possible was one of them. OK? And the ghettoes existed a long time before WWII, or didn't you know that before posting?

Then the title should be changed to ghetto! Not a jewish ghetto!!!

Look, other posters have noted different and valid historical comparisons without resorting to personal attacks. You are the only one who got all butthurt about it.

Fine, if it makes you comfortable. I'll pretend you didn't mentioned anything about Jewish Ghettos although I am amazed you didn't used other terms like ****** ghettos, kraut ghettos, asian ghettos, italian ghettos, irish ghettos, the Borough if I may finalize. Why use the term jewish ghetto in the first place?

Modifié par Titius.Vibius, 18 janvier 2010 - 04:58 .

[Sloth Of Doom]

Titius.Vibius wrote...

Fine, if it makes you comfortable. I'll pretend you didn't mentioned anything about Jewish Ghettos although I am amazed you didn't used other terms like ****** ghettos, kraut ghettos, asian ghettos, italian ghettos, irish ghettos, the Borough if I may finalize. Why use the term jewish ghetto in the first place?

Obviously you failed to read the entire thread.

[David Gaider]

Titius.Vibius wrote...
Fine, if it makes you comfortable. I'll pretend you didn't mentioned anything about Jewish Ghettos although I am amazed you didn't used other terms like ****** ghettos, kraut ghettos, asian ghettos, italian ghettos, irish ghettos, the Borough if I may finalize. Why use the term jewish ghetto in the first place?

Perhaps you should click on the link I provided or use google to look for the term in question. There is nothing racist about it or the term "Jewish" ...in fact, you are the one who is becoming offensive here. I suggest you desist.

[Atcherseid]

Fine, if it makes you comfortable. I'll pretend you didn't mentioned anything about Jewish Ghettos although I am amazed you didn't used other terms like ****** ghettos, kraut ghettos, asian ghettos, italian ghettos, irish ghettos, the Borough if I may finalize. Why use the term jewish ghetto in the first place?

Sigh

The word "ghetto" comes from the word "getto" or "gheto", which means slag in Venetian, and was used in this sense in a reference to a foundry where slag was stored located on the same island as the area of Jewish confinement.

My post was not a polemic. It reflected on medieval history, not your current politics.

T V, I can somewhat understand where you are coming from. But it is entirely misplaced in a historical/gaming perspective. Let's just let it go, OK? Read up on the original definition of "ghetto."

Modifié par Atcherseid, 18 janvier 2010 - 05:19 .

[Sarielle]

David Gaider wrote...

Titius.Vibius wrote...
Fine, if it makes you comfortable. I'll pretend you didn't mentioned anything about Jewish Ghettos although I am amazed you didn't used other terms like ****** ghettos, kraut ghettos, asian ghettos, italian ghettos, irish ghettos, the Borough if I may finalize. Why use the term jewish ghetto in the first place?

Perhaps you should click on the link I provided or use google to look for the term in question. There is nothing racist about it or the term "Jewish" ...in fact, you are the one who is becoming offensive here. I suggest you desist.

God I love misplaced politically correctness. Except, with non PC terms thrown in for ethnic groups they are not championing.

[Fexelea]

/me sits back with popcorn and turns on fox news.

[RogueWriter3201]

I must say I find this thread really rather well thought out and quite academic. I do hope Mr. Gaider and other members of the Dev/Writing team feel comfortable enough to continue to chime in on their respective historical inspirations. Given the rather...bewildering... nature of some threads here among the BW Community site, it is refreashing to see members participating in a pure academic conversation with the intent to both entertain and enlighten.

To close,  I hope this thread, as mentioned before, can continue peacefully. If you have any concerns or reservations with something posted or indicated, please PM the person or person's in question. Keep it off the thread so as to maintain a level of academic professionalism, if at all possible. Vheers!

[Fexelea]

glenboy24 wrote...

I must say I find this thread really rather well thought out and quite academic. I do hope Mr. Gaider and other members of the Dev/Writing team feel comfortable enough to continue to chime in on their respective historical inspirations. Given the rather...bewildering... nature of some threads here among the BW Community site, it is refreashing to see members participating in a pure academic conversation with the intent to both entertain and enlighten.

To close,  I hope this thread, as mentioned before, can continue peacefully. If you have any concerns or reservations with something posted or indicated, please PM the person or person's in question. Keep it off the thread so as to maintain a level of academic professionalism, if at all possible. Vheers!

[Titius.Vibius]

Atcherseid wrote...

Fine, if it makes you comfortable. I'll pretend you didn't mentioned anything about Jewish Ghettos although I am amazed you didn't used other terms like ****** ghettos, kraut ghettos, asian ghettos, italian ghettos, irish ghettos, the Borough if I may finalize. Why use the term jewish ghetto in the first place?

Sigh

The word "ghetto" comes from the word "getto" or "gheto", which means slag in Venetian, and was used in this sense in a reference to a foundry where slag was stored located on the same island as the area of Jewish confinement.

My post was not a polemic. It reflected on medieval history, not your current politics.

T V, I can somewhat understand where you are coming from. But it is entirely misplaced in a historical/gaming perspective. Let's just let it go, OK? Read up on the original definition of "ghetto."

Then change it to ghetto, its as simple as that. Please do not cite your references that obviously came from wikipedia.

[Titius.Vibius]

Sarielle wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

Titius.Vibius wrote...
Fine, if it makes you comfortable. I'll pretend you didn't mentioned anything about Jewish Ghettos although I am amazed you didn't used other terms like ****** ghettos, kraut ghettos, asian ghettos, italian ghettos, irish ghettos, the Borough if I may finalize. Why use the term jewish ghetto in the first place?

Perhaps you should click on the link I provided or use google to look for the term in question. There is nothing racist about it or the term "Jewish" ...in fact, you are the one who is becoming offensive here. I suggest you desist.

God I love misplaced politically correctness. Except, with non PC terms thrown in for ethnic groups they are not championing.

Misplaced political correctness? This kind on naive thinking have put us into numerous troubles by not being sensitive on other people's history and suffering.

[SuperMedbh]

I really appreciate the amount of research and imagination that went into the DA background. I think the fact that much of the background has its roots in real history (both bad and good) is why it resonates so well.



The whole concept of elves as an underclass was extremely compelling, and made me think a lot about racism, both institutional and personal, both historical and current.



Well done again to the writing team.

[David Gaider]

Titius.Vibius wrote...
Then change it to ghetto, its as simple as that. Please do not cite your references that obviously came from wikipedia.

...aaaand you get a time out. Please see private message.

[hangmans tree]

I agree with the idea that the situation of elves can resemble quite any nationality ever repressed in history. They have common denominator, eg: Poland and its partitions. Vast empire throughout XV-XVII century, a might to be reconed with, came crumbeling down after 400 years of almost non-stop wars and finished by 120 and some years in slavery...erased from the maps of europe; germanization and russification took place to root out poles and erase them as a nation.
The same is happening to elves in Theadas - their culture destroyed, forgotten, much of former glory in tatters, small pockets of resistance cling to whatever scraps of history that is left - to preserve it.
Elves are the everyman here in my opinion.

Something else is working up my mind lately: is way of the Qun base or mixed with bushido? We learn really little of it as qunari are quite misterious (which I like!), but some references and Sten himself reminds me of Ghost Dog that is why I draw comparisons to bushido everytime I think about it.

Modifié par hangmans tree, 18 janvier 2010 - 07:34 .

[DarkSpiral]

Not being a student of history, it is always interesting to me when the parallels are pointed out to me. I knew of the Jewish ghettos, of course, but didn't make the connection.



I have, however, often wondered what the inspiration was for the Qunari. What little we know of them *could* place them parallel with any number of strictly ordered societies (Hindu being such a one, with it's caste system, but I imagine the same can be said for Orzammar, and it's probably more accurate) in history, but it isn't specific enough for me to draw direct connections with any of them.

[jb1983]

I never thought the alienage represented the Jewish Ghettos of WWII (my grandparents grew up in one...so before anyone goes off on how I'm somehow being racist, don't even try)...those were much worse than what the alienage presents.



However, keep in mind that ghettos didn't just appear in WWII. No, they were (are) a favorite societal control mechanism from the time of the late Roman period all the way up to WWII. The alienage, from what I can tell, does a good job of representing a Jewish ghetto. Whether it was intentional or not, even the way the Alienage elves talk to humans represents how some Jews (then and now) talk about non-Jews. For the elves, they have the "shem." For the Jews, they have the "goy."



So, from someone with a Jewish perspective, the alienage was probably the most interesting origins story in the game.



As a side note, the Dalish elves actually do represent a sect of Jews during the Roman period (the Zealots) and even some during the Medieval period, but I HIGHLY doubt the developers had them in mind when thinking of the Dalish. Rather, the Dalish seem to be more indicative of the Native Americans.

[asaiasai]

David Gaider wrote...

Err... let's not forget that there were Jewish ghettos in medieval times. That's what they were called. Unless someone seriously wishes to advocate that the word "Jewish" is a problem, let's keep the overreaction to a minimum, shall we?

Fexelea wrote...
I can see the potential PR debacle brewing...

Seeing as I've already posted this fact in the past, and I don't see why it would suddenly be a problem now, I really doubt it. Am I missing something?

I am sorry but i had to reply through the tears from laughing so hard, what no over reaction on a Inet forum where the hell you been hanging out, i wanna go there too. Please do not send me to time out , i am with you all the way, it is not nice to troll the moderator. I reccomend you stay away from the Steam forums entirely.

Anyway in before the lock with something other than in before the lock .

Asai

[Valmy]

Titius.Vibius wrote...
Fine, if it makes you comfortable. I'll pretend you didn't mentioned anything about Jewish Ghettos although I am amazed you didn't used other terms like ****** ghettos, kraut ghettos, asian ghettos, italian ghettos, irish ghettos, the Borough if I may finalize. Why use the term jewish ghetto in the first place?

Because it is not an offensive term and is simply a name of something in Medieval Europe?

[dkjestrup]

Wow, never occurred to me, but now it totally makes sense.



And yes, the Dalish are similar to Native Americans, or Maori, or the Abos (I don't know how to spell the rest of it, don't think I'm being derogative).