143 réponses à ce sujet

[JackDresden]

Atcherseid wrote...

I wonder if they were thinking of the European Jewish ghettoes when they wrote the Elven alienage. I see some similarites -- a minority group largely restricted to a certain quarter of the city, where they keep their traditions alive.

Or indeed any Ghettoes of course the alienage is a for of Ghetto and the elves do have their own culture which they try to keep alive. So to that extent you can draw paralells. I wouldn't read too much into it though.

[Erakleitos]

Let's play a game: try to invent a game setting without any links to the human culture.

[Reynaert-AD]

I always had a distinct Masada vibe playing through the Brecilian ruins... 

Anyway, you got to give the developers credit for basing their world on medieval europe. I'm quite thrilled with it, actually. It doesn't constrain you to 'true' history (oh noes! France never invaded a Byzantine Empire! How dare game developers even suggest this notion!) but it allows refinement and nuance (no more good vs evil; more about personal motivation). And why not referring to a darker medieval past? 

Anyway, as far as history is concerned: antisemitism used to be a European sport. Got a plague? Probably the jews. Bad harvest? You know who to blame. Someone leaked military secrets to Germany? J'accuse. Plenty of examples to choose from. I like to believe we europeans have moved on to other targets. 

[Erakleitos]

Reynaert-AD wrote...

I always had a distinct Masada vibe playing through the Brecilian ruins... 

Anyway, you got to give the developers credit for basing their world on medieval europe. I'm quite thrilled with it, actually. It doesn't constrain you to 'true' history (oh noes! France never invaded a Byzantine Empire! How dare game developers even suggest this notion!) but it allows refinement and nuance (no more good vs evil; more about personal motivation). And why not referring to a darker medieval past? 

Anyway, as far as history is concerned: antisemitism used to be a European sport. Got a plague? Probably the jews. Bad harvest? You know who to blame. Someone leaked military secrets to Germany? J'accuse. Plenty of examples to choose from. I like to believe we europeans have moved on to other targets. 

Immigrants are becoming popular in italy lately

[melkathi]

And Brussels is always a good scapegoat. The Eurocrats tieing local governments hands with EU-Guidelines 

And since we are gamers, we can always blame Sony and EA

[knownastherat]

Erakleitos wrote...

Let's play a game: try to invent a game setting without any links to the human culture.

For one I believe that is practically impossible, to imagine the unknown with our brains limited to the known, for second the writer himself confirned inspiration, and lastly we might like it or not but Jews and talking about them is either taboo or controversial at least. I was surprised seeing this thread, as such material is generally not very good for business, but it is natural people link knowledges and experiences from the so-called real world to any other imaginable. Pretedning something does not exist does not genrally make it to go away, well, except for inet trolls perhaps ..

[aries1001]

It's a historical fact that the Jews in Europe lived in closed quarters in European countries during the medieval ages. In the 14th or 15th century, the Jews in Italy moved into places where foundries earlier had been located. The Italian word for foundry is 'ghetto', hence the name. Today, ghettos are used to describe all sorts of things.



As for the Alienage and the Dalish Elves in DA:O, this could be seen as spin or take on many things e.g. the history of the hebrew people, the hisyory of the american indians and many other people throughout the world.

[Gegenlicht]

There are many points against comparing the Dalish directly to Native Americans. For one, they've 'gone native'. They were civilized city-building people who reverted to nomadic ways to remove themselves from a dominant culture that is oppressive and toxic towards them. This is not in any way comparable to Indians being confined to reservations unless I misunderstand the Dalish nomads. More important in my own view is the idea of a singular lost Elven homeland that they dream of regaining. While this is not limited to Jewish history and myth there are several fitting instances such as the Exodus, the Babylonian Captivity and most importantly the entire Jewish Diaspora following the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans and essentially lasting until the post-WW2 foundation of the state of Israel.



While it doesn't mimic Jewish fact and myth to a t, I just find the background elements resonate more strongly with the fate and history of the Jewish people than any other single group. But given a world full of discrimination based on race or creed even to this day, there is of course an endless repository of sources to draw from.

[Vicious]

This thread was flamebait from the get-go.

[AdorableAnarchist]

Reynaert-AD wrote...

I always had a distinct Masada vibe playing through the Brecilian ruins... 

This fills me with much love! As an ex-archaeologist, I applaud your comparison!

Back to the City Elves and the Alienage... For what it's worth, this gave me a good talking point with my son about oppression and treating people differently based on colour, belief, etc. I didn't even think about the Jewish Ghettos! Now, Boy Child will be getting a history lessong next play through!

[JackDresden]

Fexelea wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

Atcherseid wrote...
I wonder if they were thinking of the European Jewish ghettoes when they wrote the Elven alienage. I see some similarites -- a minority group largely restricted to a certain quarter of the city, where they keep their traditions alive.

The medieval Jewish ghettos were the original inspiration behind the alienages, yes. It grew to encompass other things, of course, but all of Thedas started as a fictionalized version of European history, so that is indeed where it began.

I can see the potential PR debacle brewing...

Why Dragon Age tries to address mature issues like predjudice and bigotry, obviously it is going to be inspired by the real world and the Ghettos of Europe during the Middle Ages are a good model to address those themes in a setting that is close to Europe in the Early middle ages.

Addressing  these issues in a story or a game may actually make people think about the nature of predjudice and bigotry. Is that a bad thing?

[JackDresden]

Atcherseid wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

Atcherseid wrote...
I wonder if they were thinking of the European Jewish ghettoes when they wrote the Elven alienage. I see some similarites -- a minority group largely restricted to a certain quarter of the city, where they keep their traditions alive.

The medieval Jewish ghettos were the original inspiration behind the alienages, yes. It grew to encompass other things, of course, but all of Thedas started as a fictionalized version of European history, so that is indeed where it began.

Thanks. And in hopes of setting this thread on a slightly more scholarly course, I have recently been reading about golems. Specificaly an interesting book titled "The Golem: A new translation of the classic play and selected short stories," by Joachim Neugroschel (WW Norton). The golem has passed into common mythology, but its origins were in 16th century Prague in a Jewish community that was, in the earliest definition, a ghetto.

Yes that's true and a golem was origionally given life in the mythology by writing gods true name on a bit of paper and placing it in the mouth. They where made of clay normally too according to the mythology.

Modifié par JackDresden, 18 janvier 2010 - 07:14 .

[DragonRageGT]

AdorableAnarchist wrote...
This fills me with much love! As an ex-archaeologist, I applaud your comparison!

How does one become an ex-achaeologist? Once you're one, you'll always be one even if you don't work as one anymore, won't you? =)

There were pogroms a long time before XX century and then the Inquisition... yeah, jewish ghetto is nothing new in history and it's good the game shows that any form of discrimination is wrong, even if you're rp ing a maniac psychopat character, the person behind it doesn't need to be!

[AdorableAnarchist]

RageGT wrote...

AdorableAnarchist wrote...
This fills me with much love! As an ex-archaeologist, I applaud your comparison!

How does one become an ex-achaeologist? Once you're one, you'll always be one even if you don't work as one anymore, won't you? =)

LOL True. I guess I'll always be one, even if I never set foot in the field again. Besides, it gives me awesome stories to tell at cocktail parties.

[ArchigosAJ]

Mordaedil wrote...

ArchigosAJ wrote...
I'm one of a very few Jewish people in my area, so people pick me out all the time. Even when I served in the military when others found out I was Jewish they called me Hitler for most of Boot Camp.

Your boot camp full of ignorant people or do they subscribe to irony or "opposite world" kind of mentality?

I wasn't aware being jewish was even a physically visible feature, and if they were picking on you because you had other rites than they did, that just proves they were dicks in general.

They were ignorant dicks. The first couple weeks of boot camp I felt pressured to not go to Temple because of the way a lot of the people talked, but after I saw something I wish I never did, I decided I was going to go because I needed someone to talk to. As soon as I talked to my RDC about going, another person that overheard it yelled across the barracks and pointed at me saying "Hey everyone, Hitler found religion" and they all called me Hitler until I finished and left for "A" School.

---------------

Rythuse wrote...

ArchigosAJ wrote...
I'm one of a very few Jewish people in my area, so people pick me out all the time. Even when I served in the military when others found out I was Jewish they called me Hitler for most of Boot Camp. I haven't read the Wikipedia article that David linked yet (planned on it after I post), but I agree on both counts, obviously there's a lot of parallels between the Jewish Ghetto's and the Alienage since that was at least part of the inspiration and the fact that the phrase used is NOT racist, it's pointing out a historical reference.

ya i can back you up on that i've been dealing with people since like 5th grade and im in 11th anyway david already said there based on medevil ghettos

I think I was in like 7th or 8th grade when it first started becoming a problem and like I mentioned above, it hit a low point when I was 17/18 and a fresh face in the military. I just turned 29 the end of Oct. so yeah... the hatred is really getting old by this point.

Modifié par ArchigosAJ, 18 janvier 2010 - 07:36 .

[Apocalizz]

What a couple of Dickweeds. Nobody deserves to be called Hitler, and people who do that are seriously dumb as a rock. Extremely ignorant! I can't imagine what it must be like to be discriminated against... unfortunately, it happens in the Netherlands too, but against other groups.



But back on topic. I can imagine that the writers were inspired by histories such as these. After going to Prague when I was 14, I became very interested in the Jewish Quarter there and the stories about the Golems. (Maybe also because I have family in Israel). I really enjoyed seeing these things in the game. After playing the city elf origin, I felt like they were portrayed in a positive way, so I hope nobody takes offence after it.

[WarlordThor]

Apocalizz wrote...

What a couple of Dickweeds. Nobody deserves to be called Hitler, and people who do that are seriously dumb as a rock. Extremely ignorant! I can't imagine what it must be like to be discriminated against... unfortunately, it happens in the Netherlands too, but against other groups.

I disagree a bit. The largest problem we have with things like racism, is the fact that people focus so heavily on it. If we all just stopped even mentioning it, racism would be gone. Racism and prejudice over anything, is mostly continued by the people who champion against it. They are the ones who must always point out our differences and make accussations. Today is a fitting day in the US, honoring Martin Luther King Jr who dreamed of equality for all. I think we have lost touch with that. Our idea of being politically correct has led to special treatment and a greater divide amongst ourselves. We are at a point when people take offense because of the word jewish on a DA:O message board.

I applaud David for not backing down to this and standing up for common sense. I highly doubt anyone on the Bioware team looks down upon any creed or race or height or whatever. They do, however, likely use influences from the real world to create a wonderful game. It should not be hard for us to discuss what these influences are without being offended. Everyone needs to accept history as history. It is gone and by. We can learn from it, but to dwell on it so harshly that it distorts the present is good for no one. I hope people who champion against ignorance and prejudice realize that, while sometimes it may be justified, a lot of the times they are simply spreading it and giving it renewed life.

[addiction21]

WarlordThor wrote...

Apocalizz wrote...

What a couple of Dickweeds. Nobody deserves to be called Hitler, and people who do that are seriously dumb as a rock. Extremely ignorant! I can't imagine what it must be like to be discriminated against... unfortunately, it happens in the Netherlands too, but against other groups.

I disagree a bit. The largest problem we have with things like racism, is the fact that people focus so heavily on it. If we all just stopped even mentioning it, racism would be gone. Racism and prejudice over anything, is mostly continued by the people who champion against it. They are the ones who must always point out our differences and make accussations. Today is a fitting day in the US, honoring Martin Luther King Jr who dreamed of equality for all. I think we have lost touch with that. Our idea of being politically correct has led to special treatment and a greater divide amongst ourselves. We are at a point when people take offense because of the word jewish on a DA:O message board.

Smartest thing thats been said in here.

[Ethical Scabs]

WarlordThor wrote...

Apocalizz wrote...

What a couple of Dickweeds. Nobody deserves to be called Hitler, and people who do that are seriously dumb as a rock. Extremely ignorant! I can't imagine what it must be like to be discriminated against... unfortunately, it happens in the Netherlands too, but against other groups.

I disagree a bit. The largest problem we have with things like racism, is the fact that people focus so heavily on it. If we all just stopped even mentioning it, racism would be gone. Racism and prejudice over anything, is mostly continued by the people who champion against it. They are the ones who must always point out our differences and make accussations. Today is a fitting day in the US, honoring Martin Luther King Jr who dreamed of equality for all. I think we have lost touch with that. Our idea of being politically correct has led to special treatment and a greater divide amongst ourselves. We are at a point when people take offense because of the word jewish on a DA:O message board.

I applaud David for not backing down to this and standing up for common sense. I highly doubt anyone on the Bioware team looks down upon any creed or race or height or whatever. They do, however, likely use influences from the real world to create a wonderful game. It should not be hard for us to discuss what these influences are without being offended. Everyone needs to accept history as history. It is gone and by. We can learn from it, but to dwell on it so harshly that it distorts the present is good for no one. I hope people who champion against ignorance and prejudice realize that, while sometimes it may be justified, a lot of the times they are simply spreading it and giving it renewed life.

"Not so!" Says the man living in NE Texas;  racism is alive and well, nay flourishing.  A black man here typically earns about 1/2 what we hire a white man for.

It isn't that they are trash either;  we hire quite a bit of white trash too(that can't seem to show up without somehow being drunk in the morning).  Inevitably they get paid more, for doing less.

[addiction21]

Ethical Scabs wrote...


"Not so!" Says the man living in NE Texas;  racism is alive and well, nay flourishing.  A black man here typically earns about 1/2 what we hire a white man for.

It isn't that they are trash either;  we hire quite a bit of white trash too(that can't seem to show up without somehow being drunk in the morning).  Inevitably they get paid more, for doing less.

I do not think Warlord ment it as "racisim is nonexsistent" it is not and will be around for a long time if not forever.

[Ethical Scabs]

addiction21 wrote...


I do not think Warlord ment it as "racisim is nonexsistent" it is not and will be around for a long time if not forever.

Ah, well.  Indeed then.  My mouth is shut.  Carry on.  What I get for coming in half-cocked.

[David Gaider]

Not that it isn't indeed a fair topic, but discussing racism is probably something better suited for the Off Topic forum... as opposed to the Dragon Age forum. Please keep the discussion tied to the game itself. Thanks!

[WarlordThor]

addiction21 wrote...

Ethical Scabs wrote...


"Not so!" Says the man living in NE Texas;  racism is alive and well, nay flourishing.  A black man here typically earns about 1/2 what we hire a white man for.

It isn't that they are trash either;  we hire quite a bit of white trash too(that can't seem to show up without somehow being drunk in the morning).  Inevitably they get paid more, for doing less.

I do not think Warlord ment it as "racisim is nonexsistent" it is not and will be around for a long time if not forever.

Yes as Ethical says, my point is that we continue and perpetuate racism and prejudice by fighting against it and always bringing it up. I do think I may have mistakingly wrote it would be gone if we didnt do such things. In a sense it would be. There would still be people who are racist, who do look down on short people, who fire people for being fat or whatever prejudicial thing it may be.

But as a whole, all kinds of prejudice would be less prevalent in our world because we would not accept them in our culture. Right now, with the whole political correct atmosphere, we embrace and welcome prejudice. We bring up differences left and right and fight for special treatment and accuse each other all the time. What we should be doing is pushing prejudice to the fringes of society where only the few practice it and the rest truly look down upon it, without continuing it.

Edit: To David, sorry if it seems a bit off topic but it seemed that the person taking offense portrayed Jewish as a race and that it was being prejudiced against with the term. Thus I felt it was wholly on topic. If my posts need to be deleted let me know. I still believe the discussion is valid to point out that whatever influence was used for the elven alienage was not done so out of any kind of prejudice.

Modifié par WarlordThor, 18 janvier 2010 - 08:23 .

[RogueWriter3201]

Again, I applaud all those continuing to make this thread one of the most in-depth and facinating topics I have had the good fortune to participate in. When-ever I can combine two of my greater passions, Interactive Entertainment (i.e. Games) and Historical academia it is almost always a true joy. For as long as everyone is able to remain on-topic, or at the least close enough to it, you have my thanks for giving this poor fool something greatly interesting on this Forum to read. Hopefully, threads such as this will inspire others so as to curve some of the more senseless or flat-out pointless threads that are, sadly, becomming the Norm. My thanks.

[addiction21]

Ethical Scabs wrote...

addiction21 wrote...


I do not think Warlord ment it as "racisim is nonexsistent" it is not and will be around for a long time if not forever.

Ah, well.  Indeed then.  My mouth is shut.  Carry on.  What I get for coming in half-cocked.

Its okay. For me I try never to speak before I have had some coffee, but even then...