143 réponses à ce sujet

[WarlordThor]

As far as trying to get back fully on topic, while playing my elf I do find myself thinking of comparisons to many different groups that have been treated as minorities throughout time. I like that the elf is given dialogue in almost every instance to accuse someone of putting them down for being an elf. It is sad, but I think this accurately reflects reality. Even when talking to the nicest person, there is such a resentment in the elf that they assume they are being talked down to. I think this accurately represents even people who were bullied as children. When pushed down in society, you begin to fear others are always out to get you.



Thus I think bioware did a fantastic job of capturing the reality of any and all groups who are cast down in today's world or in our history. To tie it down to just one is probably hard.

[romankalik]

Titius.Vibius wrote...
Misplaced political correctness? This kind on naive thinking have put us into numerous troubles by not being sensitive on other people's history and suffering.

Jewish here. Orthodox religious Jew, in fact. And you know what? I resent your ignorance more than I'd ever resent anyone bringing up well-known aspects of European Jewish history from the Middle-Ages - that of being alienated from general society. The original Ghettos were indeed Jewish, had nothing to do with rap or mass extermination (well... most of the time, anyway. Being Jewish in Middle-Ages Europe wasn't exactly a safe existence), and should not be buried under vast mountains of political correctness. The similarities, down to the city guard locking down the ghetto whenever they see fit, are quite obvious.

I did not ask for your protection, sir. You meant well, that much is clear, but try some basic research before jumping to conclusions next time. You have called people racists without due cause, in the name of Jewish feelings, and I resent that.

Gegenlicht wrote...

Actually, I thought that the Dalish
story was also reminiscent of the Jewish Diaspora, both in biblical and
medieval times, with the whole quest for a lost homeland leitmotif. I
don't have the proof handy, I just remember bursting out of my office
after talking to the Keeper-in-training at the Dalish camp and telling
my roommate that DA:O Elves are a spin on Jewish myth and history.

Not
entirely of course as the themes found in the Elven stories are too
global to not also find reflections of any major race segregation theme
in history right down to South Africa in the times of Apartheid.

There are obviously several mixed motifs in the DA: O elven history, but I recognized the Jewish element fairly quickly. And as another here mentioned, fears of assimilation and losing one's history, faith, and community also tie in well with the Jewish connection. It was even amused to note that the Elven nation was destroyed by the Dragon Age equivalent of the Roman Empire, much like the last shreds of Judean independence were.

Jews are by far not the only connection, of course, as others have noted. Apartheid South Africa and black slavery in America seem to be connected to the Elven history of captivity, slavery, and existence as second-rate citizens deemed fit only as servants.

[Atcherseid]

glenboy24 wrote...

Again, I applaud all those continuing to make this thread one of the most in-depth and facinating topics I have had the good fortune to participate in. When-ever I can combine two of my greater passions, Interactive Entertainment (i.e. Games) and Historical academia it is almost always a true joy. For as long as everyone is able to remain on-topic, or at the least close enough to it, you have my thanks for giving this poor fool something greatly interesting on this Forum to read. Hopefully, threads such as this will inspire others so as to curve some of the more senseless or flat-out pointless threads that are, sadly, becomming the Norm. My thanks.

That's what I was hoping for when I started the thread.

Going back over it, I think that Titius.Vibius didn't understand why I was using the term "Jewish ghetto" and thought that I was either slighting Jewish people or neglecting other groups. A ghetto was originally a place in medieval cities where the Jewish population was required to live. It was often walled off and gated, like the Alienage in the game.

Today, people use the words "ghetto" and "slum" interchangeably. But not all Jewish ghettoes were poor -- some were, others were prosperous. And slums are not walled-in enclosures with gates. I mean no offense to any group by citing the history of Jewish ghettos.

Modifié par Atcherseid, 18 janvier 2010 - 09:47 .

[Reynaert-AD]

AdorableAnarchist wrote...

This fills me with much love! As an ex-archaeologist, I applaud your comparison!

Happy to be of assistance. :-) Now I must return to Cicero and Kagan. A strange combination, but it works. 



In any case, on jewish discrimination in medieval europe. Two big reasons, one ideologically, one rather more practically. You see, Christians used to have awful qualms about money-lending. It wasn't - for lack of a better word - kosher. And medieval jews were known as (unscrupulous) money lenders, often more wealthy than the avarage Christian. Caused a lot of resentment. Go read the merchant of venice for culturally accepted entertainment. Or watch the movie, that's quite as good too. 
Now, the second reason: it wasn't just that the jews weren't Christians, but even more so. According to a collection of influential writings, they were the ones responsible for the death of Christ. And it is safe to say a Medieval person used to be quite pious. Or at least, adherent to this part of Catholic/Orthodox doctrine. 

(on a related note, those who haven't noted the similarities between chantry and church yet, try reading up on the Schism. You'll get brownies if you can point out the parallels to the schism in-game). 

[Reynaert-AD]

AdorableAnarchist wrote...

This fills me with much love! As an ex-archaeologist, I applaud your comparison!

Happy to be of assistance. :-) Now I must return to Cicero and Kagan. A strange combination, but it works. 



In any case, on jewish discrimination in medieval europe. Two big reasons, one ideologically, one rather more practically. You see, Christians used to have awful qualms about money-lending. It wasn't - for lack of a better word - kosher. And medieval jews were known as (unscrupulous) money lenders, often more wealthy than the avarage Christian. Caused a lot of resentment. Go read the merchant of venice for culturally accepted entertainment. Or watch the movie, that's quite as good too. 
Now, the second reason: it wasn't just that the jews weren't Christians, but even more so. According to a collection of influential writings, they were the ones responsible for the death of Christ. And it is safe to say a Medieval person used to be quite pious. Or at least, adherent to this part of Catholic/Orthodox doctrine. 

(on a related note, those who haven't noted the similarities between chantry and church yet, try reading up on the Schism. You'll get brownies if you can point out the parallels to the schism in-game). 

[BTA1]

You don't have to look to ****-Germany for segregation and ghettos. They exist everywhere throughout the capitalist world.

Modifié par BTA1, 18 janvier 2010 - 09:52 .

[BTA1]

BTA1 wrote...

You don't have to look to ****-Germany for segregation and ghettos. They exist everywhere throughout the capitalist world.

[Tirigon]

I think the elves symbolize every oppressed minority, not just the jews.



Anyways, the message is clear, isn´t it?

[Sloth Of Doom]

Tirigon wrote...

I think the elves symbolize every oppressed minority, not just the jews.

Anyways, the message is clear, isn´t it?

Pfft, if you think they are pressed, consider the poor arch demon.

[The Archdemon]

Yeah, consider me. Everyone wants to kill me because of my heritage!

[bjdbwea]

BTA1 wrote...

You don't have to look to ****-Germany for segregation and ghettos. They exist everywhere throughout the capitalist world.

Whereas nearly every "non-capitalist" state simply is just one big ghetto.

[WarlordThor]

The Archdemon wrote...

Yeah, consider me. Everyone wants to kill me because of my heritage!

Well, you are the archdemon... you kind of have it coming.

[Tirigon]

bjdbwea wrote...

BTA1 wrote...

You don't have to look to ****-Germany for segregation and ghettos. They exist everywhere throughout the capitalist world.

Whereas nearly every "non-capitalist" state simply is just one big ghetto.

Made me Lol.

[Tirigon]

The Archdemon wrote...

Yeah, consider me. Everyone wants to kill me because of my heritage!

I don´t. I want to kill you because I want Wade to make me a new Dragonscale armor. And because I hear you taste good when cooked.

[Whisa]

Tirigon wrote...

I think the elves symbolize every oppressed minority, not just the jews.

Anyways, the message is clear, isn´t it?

Worship Shianni or die?

[Tirigon]

Whisa wrote...

Worship Shianni or die?

No. This is the message shown by Shianni´s awesomeness.

The one shown by the Alienage is more something like "Oprression is bad".

It´s sad how I am flamed for my love to Shianni.
Just because I have a better taste than all you Morrigan-/Alistair-/Broodmother-Lovers.
I feel discriminated.

[Whisa]

Tirigon wrote...


No. This is the message shown by Shianni´s awesomeness.

The one shown by the Alienage is more something like "Oprression is bad".

It´s sad how I am flamed for my love to Shianni.
Just because I have a better taste than all you Morrigan-/Alistair-/Broodmother-Lovers.
I feel discriminated.

Don't look at me, I like almost all the characters.

But it had to be said!

[keesio74]

glenboy24 wrote...

Hopefully, threads such as this will inspire others so as to curve some of the more senseless or flat-out pointless threads that are, sadly, becomming the Norm. My thanks.

I dunno about you but I come to a forum about a video game to discuss senseless threads about stuff in the game.

[Rendar666]

Next thing someone is going to be complaining that using the word Caucasian is foul and offensive. Some people. Who bloody cares what “ghetto” someone names? Shall the Topic owner post a list of all known ghettos in the freaking world? No. Sheesh.



But yes, I kind of felt like the alienage was almost like a medieval Jewish ghetto, not 1930-1940 something ghetto with **** and SS and Hitler spouting hate but medieval. Allah, Jesus, Thor and Poseiden!!!



The overreaction and take offense level in this forum is simply astounding and hilarious.

[BTA1]

bjdbwea wrote...

BTA1 wrote...

You don't have to look to ****-Germany for segregation and ghettos. They exist everywhere throughout the capitalist world.

Whereas nearly every "non-capitalist" state simply is just one big ghetto.

Okay. Then if there really are any non-capitalist societies would you be so kind to point them out? I've never heard of any current country where the state and the classes are abolished. If you mean Venezuela or similiar countries, I'm pretty sure there is still a wage-slaving class and a property owning class in those, the later being the State itself mainly. Doesn't sound very non-capitalist to me. Capitalism and liberalism is not synonymous. Even a planned economy can still be capitalist, like Soviet Russia's was.

Don't know if this is still On Topic though.

Modifié par BTA1, 19 janvier 2010 - 12:38 .

[vhatever]

History taught in the USa has become jew-centric you end up with people like the OP.



Here's a tip: read a book.

[spiderfarmer]

Titius.Vibius wrote...
Fine, if it makes you comfortable. I'll pretend you didn't mentioned anything about Jewish Ghettos although I am amazed you didn't used other terms like ****** ghettos, kraut ghettos, asian ghettos, italian ghettos, irish ghettos, the Borough if I may finalize. Why use the term jewish ghetto in the first place?

Etymology

The word "ghetto" has been used in numerous contexts and carried various meanings in its history, yet the first use of the word is somewhat unclear. According to the Oxford English Dictionary, the term is of uncertain etymology but is probably Italian in origin and was perhaps used for the first time in Venice, circa 1516, to describe a neighborhood on the site of the city’s foundry.

The first recorded written use of the word occurred in 1611 in Coryat’s Crudities, in which he describes "the place where the whole fraternity of the lews (sic) dwelleth together, which is called the Ghetto." After this initial use, the word appears infrequently in written form until the late 19th century, when the social landscape of city becomes the subject of many authors and scholars.

Semantics

Early in its history, the word "ghetto" denoted a walled-off and gated section in a city to which Jews were restricted. The word was chiefly used in Italy, especially in port cities like Venice in which large populations of Jews—many of whom were traders and money lenders—lived. Because they were viewed as cultural minorities due to their non-Christian beliefs in a Renaissance Christian environment, Jews were placed under strict regulations throughout many European cities. They were forced to live together in the ghetto to prevent their roaming about at night (Calimani 1). In addition to migration laws, sumptuary laws forced Jews to wear a star-shaped yellow badge and a yellow beret, identifying them as outsiders and making them open to taunts and various other social cruelties (Calimani 11).

Despite the social separation it promoted, the ghetto, for many Jews, did not represent a deterioration in the status, but rather provided a "middle ground between unconditional acceptance and expulsion" (Bonfil 70-71). Indeed, much of the Jewish population found the ghetto a suitable place to establish their own cultural rules and beliefs.

In 1870, the last ghetto in Western Europe, in Rome, was abolished, but ghettos continued to exist in Russia and many Muslim countries. Although the ghetto may have disappeared from many cities at this time, references to ghettos began to rise. In 1879, Farrar makes references to "the ghetto" in St. Paul. Late 19th-century literary critic Edward Dowden makes numerous references to ghettos, especially in his analyses of Percy Bysshe Shelley. In 1892, British author Israel Zangwill penned Children of the Ghetto and later wrote Dreamers of the Ghetto (1898), a series of biographical studies. Finally, in 1908 Jack London in Martin Eden explains that his characters "plunged off right into the heart of the working-class ghetto."

The term "ghetto" fell into popular use again in Europe in the mid-1930s following the **** rise to power and the enactment of their race doctrine. The ****s established over 300 Jewish ghettos in Poland, the Soviet Union, the Baltic States, Czechoslovakia, Romania, and Hungary between 1939 and 1945 ("The Ghettos"). Unlike the ghettos of the Renaissance and the Enlightenment, the **** ghettos were overcrowded, impoverished, disease-plagued areas marked off by stone or brick walls, wooden fences, and barbed wire. The **** ghettos were guarded, and Jews were not allowed to leave them under penalty of death ("The Ghettos"). Furthermore, **** ghettos acted as holding areas for Jews who would be transported to concentration and death camps.

Works Cited
Bonfil, Robert. Jewish Life in Renaissance Italy. Berkeley, Ca.: University of California Press, 1994.

Calimani, Riccardo. The Ghetto of Venice. Trans. Katherine Silherblatt. New York: Evans and Company, Inc.,1985.

"The Ghettos." A Teacher’s Guide to the Holocaust. The Florida Center for Instructional Technology. 15 July 2001

Modifié par spiderfarmer, 19 janvier 2010 - 01:27 .

[Peeker2009]

Dkjestup

Of course it was used innocently here, but the term "Abos" is actually considered derogatory, and is no longer used in Australia, at least not publicly. To many from outside the country it's just an abbreviation for aborigine, but it gained negative overtones due to the way it was used/abused by non-Aboriginals, in the same way as "Japs" is not used as an appropriate abbreviation for Japanese.

BTW, no reason too feel embarrassed or anything. The politics of language is hard for anyone to keep up with, especially from the other side of the world 



Does anyone else have to re-submit an edit 2 or 3 times before it sticks?

Modifié par Peeker2009, 19 janvier 2010 - 01:37 .