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Elven alienage = Jewish ghetto?


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#126
bjdbwea

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BTA1 wrote...

Okay. Then if there really are any non-capitalist societies would you be so kind to point them out? I've never heard of any current country where the state and the classes are abolished.


Because it's impossible. As soon as you "abolish" the state, there are at least two classes: The hunters and the prey. I think most people who preach "abolishment" of the state now, would find themselves to be the latter.

BTA1 wrote...
Even a planned economy can still be capitalist, like Soviet Russia's was.


Oh, sure. Since it failed, it wasn't Socialism. Socialism doesn't fail.

:whistle:

#127
spiderfarmer

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Peeker2009 wrote...
Does anyone else have to re-submit an edit 2 or 3 times before it sticks?


Yeah, I did too.  Weird. 

#128
Dieover

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Atcherseid wrote...

I wonder if they were thinking of the European Jewish ghettoes when they wrote the Elven alienage. I see some similarites -- a minority group largely restricted to a certain quarter of the city, where they keep their traditions alive.

it actually remind me of the **** camp after watching the History Channel repeatedly but that's other story.

#129
Gegenlicht

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bjdbwea wrote...

Because it's impossible. As soon as you "abolish" the state, there are at least two classes: The hunters and the prey. I think most people who preach "abolishment" of the state now, would find themselves to be the latter.


I know I'm quoting the wrong guy in this argument, but...

...capitalism is not a form of government. As such it exists independently of 'the state'. Capitalism is an economic model in which the maximization of monetary gain is paramount. I'd say it's a giant pyramid scheme in essence, but Wikipedia just told me there's no proper definition of capitalism above and beyond the means of production being privately owned and the goods and services produced being freely traded.

Military dictatorships, tribal and religious communities and, yes, communist and socialist states can all be non-capitalist while still retaining some form of government and legal system indicative of the existence of 'the state'.

#130
adembroski11

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Elves are not Jews. They're just kind of Jewish.

#131
Atcherseid

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adembroski11 wrote...

Elves are not Jews. They're just kind of Jewish.


Agreed. Playing as a city elf, I once again listened to the story-teller in the Dalish camp. (What's his name - Saleh or something like that. Can't access my game right now.) Anyway, in light of the ghetto connection, I realized that his story had many obvious parallels to the Jewish diaspora.

Modifié par Atcherseid, 19 janvier 2010 - 05:07 .


#132
Ariella

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romankalik wrote...

Titius.Vibius wrote...
Misplaced political correctness? This kind on naive thinking have put us into numerous troubles by not being sensitive on other people's history and suffering. :(


Jewish here. Orthodox religious Jew, in fact. And you know what? I resent your ignorance more than I'd ever resent anyone bringing up well-known aspects of European Jewish history from the Middle-Ages - that of being alienated from general society. The original Ghettos were indeed Jewish, had nothing to do with rap or mass extermination (well... most of the time, anyway. Being Jewish in Middle-Ages Europe wasn't exactly a safe existence), and should not be buried under vast mountains of political correctness. The similarities, down to the city guard locking down the ghetto whenever they see fit, are quite obvious.

I did not ask for your protection, sir. You meant well, that much is clear, but try some basic research before jumping to conclusions next time. You have called people racists without due cause, in the name of Jewish feelings, and I resent that.


Thank you, Roman. I appreciate someone managed to say this before I did. Also being Jewish, I tend to resent being used as a cause celebre by somebody who obviously doesn't know his tuchas from his elbows when it comes to Jewish history.

Gegenlicht wrote...

Actually, I thought that the Dalish
story was also reminiscent of the Jewish Diaspora, both in biblical and
medieval times, with the whole quest for a lost homeland leitmotif. I
don't have the proof handy, I just remember bursting out of my office
after talking to the Keeper-in-training at the Dalish camp and telling
my roommate that DA:O Elves are a spin on Jewish myth and history.

Not
entirely of course as the themes found in the Elven stories are too
global to not also find reflections of any major race segregation theme
in history right down to South Africa in the times of Apartheid.


There are obviously several mixed motifs in the DA: O elven history, but I recognized the Jewish element fairly quickly. And as another here mentioned, fears of assimilation and losing one's history, faith, and community also tie in well with the Jewish connection. It was even amused to note that the Elven nation was destroyed by the Dragon Age equivalent of the Roman Empire, much like the last shreds of Judean independence were.

Jews are by far not the only connection, of course, as others have noted. Apartheid South Africa and black slavery in America seem to be connected to the Elven history of captivity, slavery, and existence as second-rate citizens deemed fit only as servants.


The Dalish also reminds me of the Romani, with the rumors of magic outside the nomal, along with the movement a lot of times forced by villages. I'll apologize if I'm not as coherant as usual, life went to hell for me this past thursday.

I'll admit, when I play the City Elf origin, I tend to get an extra shiver because of personal connection and knowing history. I think that the writers and devs at Bioware did a great job using the inspiration of history to weave something new. In addition, if someone decides to look up a website or read a book etc about the Jewish experiance in the ghetto because of this thread and DAO, that's a wonderful bonus.

#133
Dajiaocookie

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Lord Phoebus wrote...

You could make the comparison between the Elves and: the Jewish Ghetto, NA native reservations, the Palestinians in Israel, the indigenous South Africans under aparthied, the helots in Sparta, Anglo-Saxon serfs under the Normans... Unfortunately it's something that happens far too often in our history to draw a single comparison.


What he said.

There isn't just one instance (Jewish Ghetto). It's just the subjugation of an entire race. It appears more like the Jewish ghetto in ww2, since it's the most publicized instance injustice and racism in recent times. On that note, aren't Native Americans still living on reservations?

#134
Titius.Vibius

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I can't believe this thread is still running after my detention. Anyway nice points there who replied to my posts. Rock on! Nuff said. lmao

#135
dkjestrup

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Dajiaocookie wrote...

Lord Phoebus wrote...

You could make the comparison between the Elves and: the Jewish Ghetto, NA native reservations, the Palestinians in Israel, the indigenous South Africans under aparthied, the helots in Sparta, Anglo-Saxon serfs under the Normans... Unfortunately it's something that happens far too often in our history to draw a single comparison.


What he said.

There isn't just one instance (Jewish Ghetto). It's just the subjugation of an entire race. It appears more like the Jewish ghetto in ww2, since it's the most publicized instance injustice and racism in recent times. On that note, aren't Native Americans still living on reservations?


I think the reason they're comparing it to a Jewish Grotto is because the game is heavily based on Europe. Ferelden is Britain, Orlais is France, Antiva is Spain, the Quarni are a bit of a mystery (maybe Nordic Vikings but with a different look?). There were Jewish Grottos in Medieval Europe, so that's why the comparison was made.

#136
Atcherseid

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Titius.Vibius wrote...

I can't believe this thread is still running after my detention. Anyway nice points there who replied to my posts. Rock on! Nuff said. lmao

Welcome back. Learn anything?

BTW, didyou complete the "scaping the bottom of the barrel"?

Just curious.

Modifié par Atcherseid, 19 janvier 2010 - 08:11 .


#137
Titius.Vibius

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Atcherseid wrote...

Titius.Vibius wrote...

I can't believe this thread is still running after my detention. Anyway nice points there who replied to my posts. Rock on! Nuff said. lmao

Welcome back. Learn anything?

BTW, didyou complete the "scaping the bottom of the barrel"?

Just curious.


Learned anything? Excluding the weak points cited on wikipedia and the justification of continued usage of the allegory on jewish ghettos, personally I didn't learned anything.

It seems my suspicions are correct after all no? "BTW, did you complete the "sc®aping the bottom of the barrel"?"

Modifié par Titius.Vibius, 19 janvier 2010 - 08:26 .


#138
Reynaert-AD

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In that case, you might see a parallel between i/p and those elves/werewolves. Intense hatred, history (avoiding spoilers, of course). Could make for a fine discussion. I'll sit back and relax.



Oh, I do believe antiva's supposed to be Genua/Venice or any medieval mediterranean trade state. And Qunari as muslims/Seldjuks/Ottomans

#139
Yaskaleh

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The only jewish connection I see with the elves are the alienage. Besides that i've always drawn the connection to heathen europe before christianity. cultures of many gods crushed and destroyed by foreign invaders. Persecution of the old beliefs in the name of one god/prophetess.

#140
melkathi

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Titius.Vibius wrote...

I can't believe this thread is still running after my detention. Anyway nice points there who replied to my posts. Rock on! Nuff said. lmao


I thought you got banned, not detained. Detention implies they didn't let you leave, when, as I understand it, they didn't let you enter :bandit:

#141
Tirigon

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bjdbwea wrote...

BTA1 wrote...

Okay. Then if there really are any non-capitalist societies would you be so kind to point them out? I've never heard of any current country where the state and the classes are abolished.


Because it's impossible. As soon as you "abolish" the state, there are at least two classes: The hunters and the prey. I think most people who preach "abolishment" of the state now, would find themselves to be the latter.


Wrong. States are in fact unnecessary. All they do is preventing people from killing each other - and they fail badly at that, as they lead wars but can´t even prevent murders. In anarchism is nearly no crime because there is no reason for it.


BTA1 wrote...
Even a planned economy can still be capitalist, like Soviet Russia's was.


Oh, sure. Since it failed, it wasn't Socialism. Socialism doesn't fail.

:whistle:


Soviet Russia was lead by a dictator (Stalin). Communism and Socialism is against dictators, so it wasn´t either of that.
(I´m not a communist because of the "Dictatorship of Proletariat" crap, but Communism is a LOT better than bolschevism.)

#142
Tirigon

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I hope this is not mistaken as anti-semitic, but I dislike that so many people think immediately of jews if it´s about oppression. Jews are not the only minorities who were (or still are) oppressed. Almost every minority is or at least was oppressed.

#143
Sarielle

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Titius.Vibius wrote...

Atcherseid wrote...

Titius.Vibius wrote...

I can't believe this thread is still running after my detention. Anyway nice points there who replied to my posts. Rock on! Nuff said. lmao

Welcome back. Learn anything?

BTW, didyou complete the "scaping the bottom of the barrel"?

Just curious.


Learned anything? Excluding the weak points cited on wikipedia and the justification of continued usage of the allegory on jewish ghettos, personally I didn't learned anything.

It seems my suspicions are correct after all no? "BTW, did you complete the "sc®aping the bottom of the barrel"?"



Yanno, sometimes you earn yourself a whole lot more respect by saying "You know what, I was misinformed and overreacted" than you do sticking to your guns long after it's obvious you were misinformed and overreacted.

Just sayin'.

Also, yes. I don't feel like finding the place you quoted me but, yes. Misplaced politically correctness still stands. I'd think the posts from some of the Jewish folks here would have made that plain if the history lesson you seemed to have skipped didn't.

#144
Gegenlicht

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Yaskaleh wrote...

Besides that i've always drawn the connection to heathen europe before christianity. cultures of many gods crushed and destroyed by foreign invaders. Persecution of the old beliefs in the name of one god/prophetess.


That really happened less often than you'd think. The Teutonic Knights moving through Prussia and the Baltic is the only major example inside of Europe that springs to mind. Most everywhere else in Europe, christianization was achieved through a missionary process. Which doesn't mean that it was always an entirely peaceful process (the old faith pracicioners in Iceland apparently decided to convert en masse at some point to avoid fighting their families and neighbours over religious issues, rather than that they actually had come to believe christianity was 'more right'), it just didn't happen the way you paint it.