138 réponses à ce sujet

[justafan]

I do not totally agree with your assessment of what constitutes the "hope" of the ending, and what constitutes "fate".

To me, choosing synthesis and control is giving in to the "fate" of organic life, the fate that awaits all organic life according to the catalyst, that being annihilation by AI. These endings allow organics to transcend our current problems by becoming something else in synthesis, or merely postponing things in control.

The hope is given in Destroy and Refuse. In these endings, the player is hopeful that the galaxy can find another way, despite the great cost required. While synthesis and control are partly about accepting a supposed inevitability, destroy and refuse reject it. In these endings, you hold out hope that the problem can be solved in a better way than control or synthesis.

I do not believe the death of the main character is necessary for the distinction between hope and fate, only that it is closely associated with the concept. For instance, many characters, and sometimes real people die in the hopes of creating a better world, such as at the Alamo, Gandalf in The Lord of the Rings (even though he got better), and countless other games and movies with heroic deaths.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

 I disagree that any one choice in the ending is just fate- or hope-based alone.

If anything, blue/green require more hope than red does (just not for Shepard's life) -- in the now, that is.

Also, anyone who sees saving the galaxy at any cost as totally hopeless has no concept of "hope" to begin with!

[Steelcan]

David7204 wrote...

Why do people spew vitriol at me when I speak to defend these concepts of hope and heroism when it's incredibly clear from these comments that they're very important to players?

Because you spew it where it is not entirely applicaple.  Choices should be just that choices.  One or more options, not exclusively what you have deeemed "heroic". 

Modifié par Steelcan, 02 juillet 2013 - 11:26 .

[Steelcan]

David7204 wrote...

Heroism is just how hope is earned. Paradise exists because it's built. Not because it's given.

Also, I don't know how to change my avatar.

Salvation comes at a cost, judge us not by our methods but by what we seek to accomplish.

-TIM

Glad to see you agree=]

[SSPBOURNE]

Tron Mega wrote...

I wonder what synthesis thinks of the word fate.

Synthesis, what do you think of fate?
*beep*
Did you mean 'space magic?'

[AlanC9]

justafan wrote...

To me, choosing synthesis and control is giving in to the "fate" of organic life, the fate that awaits all organic life according to the catalyst, that being annihilation by AI. These endings allow organics to transcend our current problems by becoming something else in synthesis, or merely postponing things in control.

This is possible, but not necessary. Shepard can think that organics have no particular fate awaiting them, but nevertheless pick Control because he finds the consequences of Destroy unacceptable. I don't personally see a good reason for Synthesis if you don't believe in the synth/organic problem, though.

Modifié par AlanC9, 02 juillet 2013 - 11:49 .

[Tonymac]

frostajulie wrote...

each of the endings are devoid of hope except refuse and we get to see how badly trusting to hope plays out. The tragedy is I would rather trust to hope than accept fate even when I already know the outcome.

That's why the ending sucks. It is the death of hope. The death of dreams.

^   QFT

There is no hope - only the harvest (and bad writing). 

I cannot think of a worse ending(s) than what they produced.  The EC helped, but by sticking with these horrible endings shows how far out of touch Bioware is with fans, and why we play these games.

[AlexMBrennan]

In deep impact the astronauts choose fate over hope as well. They rammed their shuttle full of nukes into a comet that threatened all life on earth. They could have just fired a few at a time..hoping that it would be enough...but they didn't.

Well, yeah, "We fitted an unmanned rocket with nukes and used it to destroy an asteroid threatening to annihilate earth" wouldn't make for a good movie.

In Mass effect the star kid tells shepard he will die if he choses synthesis or control, but he also says that these are legit solutions to the organic vs synthetic conflict. Destroy is the only original option that allows shepard to trust hope over fate. The red ending is uncertain and leaves the problem only temporaraly solved...but shepard has a chance to survive.

If you want to go all artsy whilst throwing all common sense caution out of the window, sure ("After fighting the reapers for years we met a reaper who said that we shouldn't kill the reapers, so let's do that - after all I was marginally more lucky than the red shirts who got atomised by Harby, therefore I should get to decide how this multi-species project is utilised.")

[Iakus]

crimzontearz wrote...

Bioware does not care. They never will. As far as they are concerned you are a peon for not understanding and appreciating their art. hope has nothing to do with it, neither does fate, it is all about the will of the beret wearing artist

Rudimentary creatures of blood and flesh. You touch my mind, fumbling in ignorance, incapable of understanding.


 You exist because we allow it, and you will end because we demand it.

Modifié par iakus, 03 juillet 2013 - 12:57 .

[AlanC9]

Tonymac wrote...

frostajulie wrote...

each of the endings are devoid of hope except refuse and we get to see how badly trusting to hope plays out. The tragedy is I would rather trust to hope than accept fate even when I already know the outcome.

That's why the ending sucks. It is the death of hope. The death of dreams.

^   QFT

There is no hope - only the harvest (and bad writing). 

I cannot think of a worse ending(s) than what they produced.  The EC helped, but by sticking with these horrible endings shows how far out of touch Bioware is with fans, and why we play these games.

No hope? Galaxy saved, last I checked. But I guess that's a certainty so hope doesn't apply?

[Cheviot]

AlanC9 wrote...

Tonymac wrote...

frostajulie wrote...

each of the endings are devoid of hope except refuse and we get to see how badly trusting to hope plays out. The tragedy is I would rather trust to hope than accept fate even when I already know the outcome.

That's why the ending sucks. It is the death of hope. The death of dreams.

^   QFT

There is no hope - only the harvest (and bad writing). 

I cannot think of a worse ending(s) than what they produced.  The EC helped, but by sticking with these horrible endings shows how far out of touch Bioware is with fans, and why we play these games.

No hope? Galaxy saved, last I checked. But I guess that's a certainty so hope doesn't apply?

Hope for the future maybe?  There's a lot of that in the endings.  Except in low-EMS Destroy.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

AlanC9 wrote...

Tonymac wrote...

frostajulie wrote...

each of the endings are devoid of hope except refuse and we get to see how badly trusting to hope plays out. The tragedy is I would rather trust to hope than accept fate even when I already know the outcome.

That's why the ending sucks. It is the death of hope. The death of dreams.

^   QFT

There is no hope - only the harvest (and bad writing). 

I cannot think of a worse ending(s) than what they produced.  The EC helped, but by sticking with these horrible endings shows how far out of touch Bioware is with fans, and why we play these games.

No hope? Galaxy saved, last I checked. But I guess that's a certainty so hope doesn't apply?

Depends on your idea of hope. People wanted a hopeful ending where they didn't have to arbitrarily forget the rest of the series to pull the ending off.

[Cheviot]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Tonymac wrote...

frostajulie wrote...

each of the endings are devoid of hope except refuse and we get to see how badly trusting to hope plays out. The tragedy is I would rather trust to hope than accept fate even when I already know the outcome.

That's why the ending sucks. It is the death of hope. The death of dreams.

^   QFT

There is no hope - only the harvest (and bad writing). 

I cannot think of a worse ending(s) than what they produced.  The EC helped, but by sticking with these horrible endings shows how far out of touch Bioware is with fans, and why we play these games.

No hope? Galaxy saved, last I checked. But I guess that's a certainty so hope doesn't apply?

Depends on your idea of hope. People wanted a hopeful ending where they didn't have to arbitrarily forget the rest of the series to pull the ending off.

You definitely need to remember the rest of the series in order for the endings to work; otherwise, you wouldn't know who any of the people in the endings were.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Cheviot wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Tonymac wrote...

frostajulie wrote...

each of the endings are devoid of hope except refuse and we get to see how badly trusting to hope plays out. The tragedy is I would rather trust to hope than accept fate even when I already know the outcome.

That's why the ending sucks. It is the death of hope. The death of dreams.

^   QFT

There is no hope - only the harvest (and bad writing). 

I cannot think of a worse ending(s) than what they produced.  The EC helped, but by sticking with these horrible endings shows how far out of touch Bioware is with fans, and why we play these games.

No hope? Galaxy saved, last I checked. But I guess that's a certainty so hope doesn't apply?

Depends on your idea of hope. People wanted a hopeful ending where they didn't have to arbitrarily forget the rest of the series to pull the ending off.

You definitely need to remember the rest of the series in order for the endings to work; otherwise, you wouldn't know who any of the people in the endings were.

How about narratively or thematically? I seem to be forgetting a lot of things there, and seeing a big disconnect in the way the game turns out versus where it was going.

That said, who's the Catalyst? I certainly never saw him before at any point in the series. Only in an add-on that was released after the damage had already been done.

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 03 juillet 2013 - 01:26 .

[AlanC9]

Forget what, exactly? I don't recall forgetting anything... though I suppose I wouldn't, would I.

Modifié par AlanC9, 03 juillet 2013 - 01:28 .

[Cheviot]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Cheviot wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Tonymac wrote...

frostajulie wrote...

each of the endings are devoid of hope except refuse and we get to see how badly trusting to hope plays out. The tragedy is I would rather trust to hope than accept fate even when I already know the outcome.

That's why the ending sucks. It is the death of hope. The death of dreams.

^   QFT

There is no hope - only the harvest (and bad writing). 

I cannot think of a worse ending(s) than what they produced.  The EC helped, but by sticking with these horrible endings shows how far out of touch Bioware is with fans, and why we play these games.

No hope? Galaxy saved, last I checked. But I guess that's a certainty so hope doesn't apply?

Depends on your idea of hope. People wanted a hopeful ending where they didn't have to arbitrarily forget the rest of the series to pull the ending off.

You definitely need to remember the rest of the series in order for the endings to work; otherwise, you wouldn't know who any of the people in the endings were.

How about narratively or thematically? I seem to be forgetting a lot of things there, and seeing a big disconnect in the way the game turns out versus where it was going.

Where the game was going: Shepard is trying to save the galaxy from the Reapers.
The way the game turns out: Shepard saves the galaxy from the Reapers.

[Iakus]

AlanC9 wrote...

No hope? Galaxy saved, last I checked. But I guess that's a certainty so hope doesn't apply?

Last I checked, the genetic code of evey living being was forcibly rewritten.

Or galactic society has been Big Brothered by the reapers

Or an entire species not to mention an old ally of Shepard's was thrown under the bus.

or rocks started falling in space.

If that's what it takes to survive, there is no hope.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Cheviot wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Cheviot wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Tonymac wrote...

frostajulie wrote...

each of the endings are devoid of hope except refuse and we get to see how badly trusting to hope plays out. The tragedy is I would rather trust to hope than accept fate even when I already know the outcome.

That's why the ending sucks. It is the death of hope. The death of dreams.

^   QFT

There is no hope - only the harvest (and bad writing). 

I cannot think of a worse ending(s) than what they produced.  The EC helped, but by sticking with these horrible endings shows how far out of touch Bioware is with fans, and why we play these games.

No hope? Galaxy saved, last I checked. But I guess that's a certainty so hope doesn't apply?

Depends on your idea of hope. People wanted a hopeful ending where they didn't have to arbitrarily forget the rest of the series to pull the ending off.

You definitely need to remember the rest of the series in order for the endings to work; otherwise, you wouldn't know who any of the people in the endings were.

How about narratively or thematically? I seem to be forgetting a lot of things there, and seeing a big disconnect in the way the game turns out versus where it was going.

Where the game was going: Shepard is trying to save the galaxy from the Reapers.
The way the game turns out: Shepard saves the galaxy from the Reapers.

It's true. But it's the how and why part that seem to be an issue for a lot of people, myself included.

The ending decided to give us another problem and ignore the old one. Saving the galaxy from the Reapers is just a side effect now to what I'm really trying to do in the ending. As the game has it, you aren't trying to save the galaxy from the Reapers in the end, you're trying to solve the Catalyst's problem. It matters not how you interpret it one way or the other, that is how the ending is set up. To refuse that notion is to screw the galaxy.

I'd rather stop the Reapers to stop the Reapers, as the game led up to it, not have it be the consequence of solving their problem.

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 03 juillet 2013 - 01:52 .

[AlanC9]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

The ending decided to give us another problem and ignore the old one. Saving the galaxy from the Reapers is just a side effect now to what I'm really trying to do in the ending. As the game has it, you aren't trying to save the galaxy from the Reapers in the end, you're trying to solve the Catalyst's problem. It matters not how you interpret it one way or the other, that is how the ending is set up. To refuse that notion is to screw the galaxy.

Why are you assuming that the Catalyst was right?

[teh DRUMPf!!]

iakus wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

No hope? Galaxy saved, last I checked. But I guess that's a certainty so hope doesn't apply?

Last I checked, the genetic code of evey living being was forcibly rewritten.

Or galactic society has been Big Brothered by the reapers

Or an entire species not to mention an old ally of Shepard's was thrown under the bus.

or rocks started falling in space.

If that's what it takes to survive, there is no hope.

Wait, I don't get it.

Is not saving the galaxy desirable in and of itself?

You might feel bad about what you had to do to do it, but that's not the same as declaring its result "hopeless."

[ghost9191]

Destroy: actually in the original destroy option the catalyst says shepard will die also, due to his/her implants. way it plays out, it looks like shepard expects to die

Not to mention that fate has a lot to do with destroy. Fate of the geth and such. that and well with shep walking into a explosion, i doubt s/he would actually expect to live. At least that is what i saw when s/he was walking towards the tube firing, pretty much accepted his/her fate

As for the starchild not believing that destroy would solve it, well that is probably because the fate of the organics would be in their hands, which the catalyst believed organics would cause their own downfall already, So it does make sense that it does not believe destroy would work.

Control: shepard doesn't die, that is about the only one where shepard doesn't have to really face death. Becoming a omni-potent ai god doesn't seem like a bad fate i guess ( though i think it would be ).

though i suppose technically s/he does die, but that is to upload his/her concious so that s/he can become the new catalyst

and only reason this option might work ( up until the whole revolution bs ) is cause you keep the reapers around to enforce and control. yay for illusion of freedom

Synthesis: pretty sure that has a lot to do with hope. Like 'I hope to ( a deity one might believe in ) this works because it is batsh*t insane'

and comparing deep impact to synthesis, wouldn't they just let the asteroid hit? i mean maybe it will make life better right?

so in short, most have a combination of fate and hope. all choices show shepards fate, which could mean living with what s/he just did .And hope that it was the right choice. that and hope for the future


P.s. kinda felt like making it anti ( insert choice ) because of the OP.

[ghost9191]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

iakus wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

No hope? Galaxy saved, last I checked. But I guess that's a certainty so hope doesn't apply?

Last I checked, the genetic code of evey living being was forcibly rewritten.

Or galactic society has been Big Brothered by the reapers

Or an entire species not to mention an old ally of Shepard's was thrown under the bus.

or rocks started falling in space.

If that's what it takes to survive, there is no hope.

Wait, I don't get it.

Is not saving the galaxy desirable in and of itself?

You might feel bad about what you had to do to do it, but that's not the same as declaring its result "hopeless."

"War is always a matter of doing evil in the hope that good may come of it "


yay quotes


Just fyi HYR, i am agreeing with you, Not disagreeing lol

Modifié par ghost9191, 03 juillet 2013 - 02:20 .

[Iakus]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Wait, I don't get it.

Is not saving the galaxy desirable in and of itself?

You might feel bad about what you had to do to do it, but that's not the same as declaring its result "hopeless."

No, not in and of itself.  Ends =/= means.

If a game makes you feel bad about what you had to do, it pretty much failed in its purpose.  And a story about how someone has to commit an atrocity to keep another atrocity from happening is the picture of hopelessness in my book.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

I get to the end and I see this translucent glowy kid dictating and pontificating how wonderful his reapers are and how they've been saving organics from destruction while they're destroying us out there. Then he gives me three choices that suck, and now I can refuse to choose them, but through metagaming I know what happens if I refuse to choose: I lose everything. So I must give in and choose. This is how you play the game.

Well I'm not going to give him what he wants just because I'm a b****, and he doesn't deserve it. Control might have been good at one time if I could actually fly the damned things into the stars after forcing them to fix everything and clean up the mess they made, but now I get to watch over the many forever and be the god empress so that's out. Destroy? Well, now that I know enough to plug Legion on Rannoch, so there's no pangs of guilt in the end, and we can replace the computer in the Normandy later, no problem.

But you've got to make sure you make the right choices during the game. My problem is I don't like laying in the pile of rubble.

Modifié par sH0tgUn jUliA, 03 juillet 2013 - 02:36 .

[ghost9191]

@iakus

makes sense for a story, but bioware was wanting to be real about it. Though i do get a feeling of hope with destroy, hope for teh races and such. though it does suck about the geth.

which is why it is still hard to play the game. but i also get how things work i suppose

@sHOTgUN jUliA

kinda depressing i suppose. but as for the rubble, just think of your happy place

Modifié par ghost9191, 03 juillet 2013 - 02:46 .