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[TheClonesLegacy]

This shocks people?

 

Vader is pretty goddamn evil.

Just look at him murderize Batman.

[mybudgee]

People are so weak. Who would take this seriously, for one??

For two, who would be upset about the loser?!?

[Nerevar-as]

What??

Guy had no issues with blowing up a planet, can't get more evil than that besides giving the order.

Child killing, evil overlord list. What can one man do? Well, if a pair of sith can take the galaxy, better not risking any jedi taking it back.

[TheChosenOne]

What's all this talk about Vader not being evil?! HE BLEW UP A ENTIRE PLANET!! With like billions of people living on it! If that isn't pure evil in one form or another, then what Voldermort said was right.

[Sifr]

Well that was Anakin's start of darkness, when he had a goal to save his wife at any cost. Vader did not just choke "a few people" he murdered his commanding officers if disobey or do not complete his orders and took part in helping the empire blow up a planet. He's more complex than the Emperor, but in the OT (especially the first two movies.) he was evil.

 

Except that Anakin in the prequel films was so badly written that right from the get go he seemed like he was already wading in the shallow end of the Dark Side, being surly, angry and ill-tempered, long before anything bad happened to him that was supposed to explain why he went down that path.

 

And yeah, I know he force-choked his people to death, but as I said, those were some of the few times in the original films he actually did something villainous, but for the most part, the guy remained rather restrained and simply let the fear he generated do most of the work for him.

 

Guy had no issues with blowing up a planet, can't get more evil than that besides giving the order.

 

What's all this talk about Vader not being evil?! HE BLEW UP A ENTIRE PLANET!! With like billions of people living on it! If that isn't pure evil in one form or another, then what Voldermort said was right.

 

Actually, Vader didn't destroy Alderaan or even give the order to blow it up, that was Grand Moff Tarkin. You can blame Peter Cushing for that one.

[SmilesJA]

Except that Anakin in the prequel films was so badly written that right from the get go he seemed like he was already wading in the shallow end of the Dark Side, being surly, angry and ill-tempered, long before anything bad happened to him that was supposed to explain why he went down that path.

 

And yeah, I know he force-choked his people to death, but as I said, those were some of the few times in the original films he actually did something villainous, but for the most part, the guy remained rather restrained and simply let the fear he generated do most of the work for him.

 

 

 

Well yeah it stemmed from fear of losing his mother, and angry at the fact that he felt that the Jedi were holding him back. There his flaws which continued to manifest thanks to palpatine. It did not help with the Jedi's philosphy of "letting go" something Anakin was unwilling to do. Also you don't think that perputating fear and intimidation is not an act villany. To me instilling fear on your people is just as evil as killing them out right. 

[TheClonesLegacy]

Actually, Vader didn't destroy Alderaan or even give the order to blow it up, that was Grand Moff Tarkin. You can blame Peter Cushing for that one.

URGE TO GODWIN RISING!

[mybudgee]

The plural of Jedi is "Jedi"

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

What's all this talk about Vader not being evil?! HE BLEW UP A ENTIRE PLANET!! With like billions of people living on it! If that isn't pure evil in one form or another, then what Voldermort said was right.

 

You hipster has just watched the prequels, right?

[Sifr]

URGE TO GODWIN RISING!

 

Tarkin was also the one to suggest that they demonstrate the power of the Death Star on Leia's homeworld, not Vader, who actually had to stop and ask what he meant when Tarkin suggested getting her to talk through "alternate means of persuasion"...?

 

Leia also shows more open hostility to Tarkin than she ever does to Vader, mocking him for making the Rebellion stronger by his attempts to crack down on the dissenting star systems, as well as accusing him of being the one who holds Vader's leash... and to be fair, in the latter case it's true, since Vader acquiesces when Tarkin tells him to stop choking Motti for insulting him.

 

Plus after calling her out on lying to him about Dantooine being the Rebel's headquarters, he didn't give her two seconds to give him the truth before he proceeded to give the order to open fire on Alderaan.

 

Yeah, Tarkin's probably the real main villain of the first movie, Vader was just the attack dog.

[mybudgee]

[Nerevar-as]

Well yeah it stemmed from fear of losing his mother, and angry at the fact that he felt that the Jedi were holding him back. There his flaws which continued to manifest thanks to palpatine. It did not help with the Jedi's philosphy of "letting go" something Anakin was unwilling to do. Also you don't think that perputating fear and intimidation is not an act villany. To me instilling fear on your people is just as evil as killing them out right. 

They were. Compare Luke´s power level in Jedi to Anakin´s in II and III. Even if he had not fallen, he still was no threat to Palpatine. I don´t think it was the Jedi actually wanting him less powerful, just pacing his power development, but end result was the same. Also, when "letting go" is so obsessive, it becomes "giving up", and that´s what old Jedi did, and what Luke didn´t.

 

And some people here should take a look at Nuremberg. Can´t believe VADER has apologists.

[Sifr]

 

And some people here should take a look at Nuremberg. Can´t believe VADER has apologists.

 

No-one's apologising for Vader, just that in the original trilogy he was portrayed more as an Lawful Evil anti-villain, who's motivations and villainous acts tended to be in service to the goal of maintaining order at all costs, than simply doing things for the sake of evil, like the Emperor.

 

The only real times that he ever shows signs of this fascist streak in the prequels, were in that conversation in Episode II, where he admitted to supporting the idea that if people can't agree then the government should make them agree.

 

Personally, I think that his fall to the Dark Side would have worked better for me in RotS if it'd been motivated not only by the desire to save his wife, but because after a couple years of fighting the Clone Wars and watching millions of people dying horribly in a pointless war, Anakin had become burnt out and Palpatine played upon that to convince him that they needed to end the war by any means necessary?

 

I'm sure that might have probably been another factor, but RotS never really took the time to address it and made it all about a single-minded obsession with saving his wife from death, to the point where it was the first thing he asks about when he's in the Vader suit? Which unfortunately, played into the characterisation he had in the prequels as a moody, love-sick puppy.

 

(And for veering towards Godwin's, I think someone owes TheClonesLegacy a coke!)

[Nerevar-as]

Godwin it's not always bad. Excusing somebody's actions for not being the top dog fits, especially Vader who is outside and above chain of command.

I guess I liked his fall more because I think fear is both the strongest negative emotion while also leaving space to simpathy at times, while I don't have much of that towards self-deluded thugs.

I wouldn't dismiss him as a love sick puppy either. Take somebody at his age from a loving family and impose suppression of feelings ten years, the result is kind of logical.

[Vox Draco]

So if I'm understanding it correctly:

 

Spoiler

 

Original heroes:

* Luke is in hiding at an old temple that houses the body of a Sith Lord that he's trying to keep out of the Empire's hands

* Leia is running the Rebel Alliance and has built (?) a Death Star that she's planning on using on an Imperial planet

* Han and Chewie end up supporting the new heroes in some way

 

New heroes:

* Poe is a Rebel pilot (not sure his plot outside of being a "Rey" love interest)

* "Rey" is Han and Leia's daughter; has Force powers but is reluctant to be a Jedi; in hiding with a lightsaber that can open the temple; is referred to as Kira in one of the spoilers

* Finn is a force-sensitive (?) Imperial defector

* BB-8  is a droid owned by Poe or "Rey"; something about him having the lightsaber hidden within him?

 

New villians:

* Kylo Ren is a Sith Inquisitor hunting for the lightsaber in order to open the temple

* Gwendoline Christie plays a force sensitive Shock Trooper Commander hunting Finn

* Domnhall Gleeson plays Luke's son; a Rebel defector who is looking to betray both factions and destroy their weapons of mass destruction; in Christie's squadron

 

 

I'm not upset at this point.  I'd like there to be less humans and more aliens, though.  Every single one of the characters listed above are human except for Chewie.  I guess either Kylo Ren or Gwendoline Christie's character could be non-humans, though. 

 

 

Interesting, I was really thinking the same lately...Star wars is a very human thing, it seems. Aliens are there in abundance, but for the most part only to make the background more exotic...or, if promoted to actual side-characters have either not much to say (Chewie...) or are totally annoying and stupid and idiotic (well, this award goes to...we do not mention his name here!)

 

Of course I don't expect the main hero to me a Quarian or Mon-Calamari (the thought though IS hilarious! Hah!), but a supporting-char that actually looks alien? Well, I hope that at least the military-ranks, pilots, soldiers among the terrorists rebelscum "freedom-fighters" (yuck!) are more varied than pure human...

 

And I still would find it nice to have a female Twi-Lek love-affair for one of the main heroes ... a tough turquoise-skinned jedi-lady/bounty-huntress? I am sold! And really, I have to reactivate my TOR-Account ...

[mybudgee]

 

Personally, I think that his fall to the Dark Side would have worked better for me in RotS if it'd been motivated not only by the desire to save his wife, but because after a couple years of fighting the Clone Wars and watching millions of people dying horribly in a pointless war, Anakin had become burnt out and Palpatine played upon that to convince him that they needed to end the war by any means necessary?

 

Who's to say this wasn't a factor??

[Sifr]

Who's to say this wasn't a factor??

 

It probably was in some way, it just wasn't apparent in the film itself. Anakin's reasons for following Palpatine and turning evil, at least as far as he says in the film, were simply a desire to save Padme from the vision of her death. Ending the Clone Wars and murdering the Jedi seemed like incidental sidenotes, that he had to do for Palpatine in order to prove his loyalty and so he would agree to help him?

 

Not to keep ragging on the prequels, since it's old hat for everyone, but it was things like that which really made me feel like they botched the execution of Anakin's fall and transformation into Vader, because when it came down to it, Anakin just never seemed (imo) to be as complex of a character as Vader was meant to be, as well as shown to be in the original films?

 

Take how in RotJ, when Palpatine is shocking Luke with Force Lightning, the scene has Vader look back and forth between them, clearly conflicted on what to do... well, at least he did, until George Lucas' later "improvements" had it edited so that he yelled "Nooo!" (because apparently it wasn't goofy enough in RotS) before attacking Palpatine. Part of why that ruined the scene was because it removed all of the subtexual elements entirely, when what made the scene great was the internal struggle of Vader deciding whether to do the right thing?

[mybudgee]

Thank the maker I have no idea what you're talking about. Vader now says "Nooo!" during the black lightning scene in ep 6?? 

 

 

Jesus Lucas, talk about ruining your own legacy...

 

As I have said, the fact that he is in the back seat can only be a good thing.

[Dermain]

Godwin it's not always bad. Excusing somebody's actions for not being the top dog fits, especially Vader who is outside and above chain of command.

I guess I liked his fall more because I think fear is both the strongest negative emotion while also leaving space to simpathy at times, while I don't have much of that towards self-deluded thugs.

I wouldn't dismiss him as a love sick puppy either. Take somebody at his age from a loving family and impose suppression of feelings ten years, the result is kind of logical.

 

Fear is an emotion based in survival. If you lack fear, then you're survival is questionable. As such, I wouldn't say that fear is a "negative" emotion.

 

It can be used in negative ways, especially if someone is preying on your fears in order to manipulate you. It can also be seen as a negative if you happen to be a highly neurotic and phobic person, but that may have more to do with us not facing the same survival odds that our ancestors dealt with causing fear to morph into being maladaptive.

[Nerevar-as]

Fear is also about losing things or people you care for. There, I'd say it's stronger than for oneself, while more sympathetic than for instance anger, which is usually directed towards those who hurt you, but often gets everybody in the way while gaining you nothing.

For fear as a survival tool, I recommend reading Dragon Head, really good horror manga, although with a rather abrupt ending.

[Vox Draco]

 

Jesus Lucas, talk about ruining your own legacy...

 

As I have said, the fact that he is in the back seat can only be a good thing.

 

With Lucas I have really difficult feelings ... without him, no Star Wars...his vision made this whole universe come true. But besides all that I was truly grateful when I heard back then that Disney bought the rights. I mean, I laughed at the Darth Mickey jokes as well, but...I also remembered how well Disney's Marvel-Division is handling their franchise.

 

The Marvel-Movies might not be Oscar-Darlings like the overrated Dark Knight Ttrilogy but they are damn funny, entertaning, lighthearted, with great casting-choices and rather true to their source-material. All things that I would like to see with Star Wars.

 

Lucas really didn't handle the prequels well...I have to go so far as to say: I am glad he made the OT in the seventies and not now, they would never have the same kind of appeal if Lucas had had all the CGI and money to do what he wants to...

 

Now all I have for now are a couple of seconds in a teaser-trailer, but those alone gave me more thrill than rewatching the entire prequel-trilogy...(though of course I was damn excited seeing the Phantom-Mencae-Trailer back in the days...so I am still cautiously optimistic, but the hype is growing )

 

But really, Star Wars without Lucas in the hands of professional story-tellers and film-makers, it could be damn worse, really damn worse...

[mybudgee]

 

But really, Star Wars without Lucas in the hands of professional story-tellers and film-makers, it could be damn worse, really damn worse...

Meesa wonderin'...

 

How much worsin'?

 

[Sifr]

The only fear I have about the new Star Wars film is that it will be amazingly shot, have great action and be a fun ride to watch... but that the plot will be ridiculously dumb, the characters bland and the villain terrible, kinda like Abrams' shaky handling of the Star Trek reboot?

 

I mean, there has always been bland, shallow characters, bad villains and dumb plots in Trekdom and the odd-even rule the films speaks for itself, but Abrams made the rest of the film so awesome to watch and that universe feel so lived in, it just made those flaws and misteps seem all the more glaring?

 

(And Trek movies need to stop trying to remake Wrath of Khan. The film was a classic and First Contact at least was a decent film in the same vein, but when Nemesis and Into Darkness decided to recycle the plot again and again, it started to get real old, real fast).

 

So yeah, the fact Abrams is actually one of the people writing the script for Force Awakens makes me worry that we might get the same problems in this new film, that we've seen in some of his previous work? On the other hand, people often accused the last two Trek movies as feeling like a Star Wars film, so I guess he's got the style right, even if it was in the wrong franchise?

 

[Nerevar-as]

Meesa wonderin'...

 

How much worsin'?

 

Legacy of the Force, Christmas Special, Marvel comics first time around,...take your pick.

[Vroom Vroom]

Thank the maker I have no idea what you're talking about. Vader now says "Nooo!" during the black lightning scene in ep 6?? 

 

 

Jesus Lucas, talk about ruining your own legacy...

 

As I have said, the fact that he is in the back seat can only be a good thing.

Funny thing, I was entirely interested in buying the Blu-ray Star Wars Collection until I had read about that on the internet (it leaked). That one "addition" killed the sale for me (and them).

 

I'll ruin it for you: