4806 réponses à ce sujet

[mybudgee]

^ what, debates? Or taking sci-fi/fantasy too seriously? (Phantom menace raped my childhood)?

[MassivelyEffective0730]

mybudgee wrote...

^ what, debates? Or taking sci-fi/fantasy too seriously? (Phantom menace raped my childhood)?

Both. Menace sucked, and so did Clones, but overall, I never stopped loving Star Wars. It's never stopped being fun for me.

[Cainhurst Crow]

What makes those two stories bad for you? Was it simply the acting or execution that made it bad? Or was it the entirety of it's existence, the introduction of new information to the star wars universe and histories to the characters previously left unexplored?

Modifié par Darth Brotarian, 12 juillet 2013 - 12:11 .

[NeonFlux117]

The suits are predicting 1.2 billi in gross for Ep. 7. Disney will be swimming in cash. The film will probably suck, but I still line up day 1 at midnight. Why? Cause I'm a total SW fanboy. See, JJ knows that star trek will always be second rate, so he went to go direct a real scifi series.

Modifié par NeonFlux117, 12 juillet 2013 - 12:27 .

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

What makes those two stories bad for you? Was it simply the acting or execution that made it bad? Or was it the entirety of it's existence, the introduction of new information to the star wars universe and histories to the characters previously left unexplored?

Acting and execution, coupled with a few bad ideas. Not everything in Star Wars is good. Jar Jar Binks is bad no matter how you look at it. Anakin was portrayed pretty badly in both. The dialogue is all around corny. The execution was quite dull: "The Galactic Senate has failed to resolve a trade dispute, and thus the Trade Federation has decided to blockade a small planet in protest. The Galactic Senate is sending two Jedi Knights to mediate the matter."

[AresKeith]

NeonFlux117 wrote...

The suits are predicting 1.2 billi in gross for Ep. 7. Disney will be swimming in cash. The film will probably suck, but I still line up day 1 at midnight. Why? Cause I'm a total SW fanboy. See, JJ knows that star trek will always be second rate, so he went to go direct a real scifi series.

Or Disney paid him more to do SW

[AresKeith]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

What makes those two stories bad for you? Was it simply the acting or execution that made it bad? Or was it the entirety of it's existence, the introduction of new information to the star wars universe and histories to the characters previously left unexplored?

Acting and execution, coupled with a few bad ideas. Not everything in Star Wars is good. Jar Jar Binks is bad no matter how you look at it. Anakin was portrayed pretty badly in both. The dialogue is all around corny. The execution was quite dull: "The Galactic Senate has failed to resolve a trade dispute, and thus the Trade Federation has decided to blockade a small planet in protest. The Galactic Senate is sending two Jedi Knights to mediate the matter."

Don't forget midichlorians 

[The Hierophant]

Did anyone else notice that the child actor who played Anakin also starred as Arnold Schwarzenegger's annoying son in "Jingle All The Way"?

Modifié par The Hierophant, 12 juillet 2013 - 02:38 .

[mybudgee]

See: Arnie in the Predator

[Nerevar-as]

AresKeith wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

What makes those two stories bad for you? Was it simply the acting or execution that made it bad? Or was it the entirety of it's existence, the introduction of new information to the star wars universe and histories to the characters previously left unexplored?

Acting and execution, coupled with a few bad ideas. Not everything in Star Wars is good. Jar Jar Binks is bad no matter how you look at it. Anakin was portrayed pretty badly in both. The dialogue is all around corny. The execution was quite dull: "The Galactic Senate has failed to resolve a trade dispute, and thus the Trade Federation has decided to blockade a small planet in protest. The Galactic Senate is sending two Jedi Knights to mediate the matter."

Don't forget midichlorians 

Why?

Yes, they are pointless, but I just don´t see why a biological user interface changes anything in the Force.

I also wonder if I´m the only person who liked the approach to Anakin in the PT. He´s a more emotionally unstable version of Luke, which is about the only thing we knew back when they talked about him back in the OT.

Agreed about Jar Jar. And let´s not get into the attempts to "redeem" him in the 3D cartoon, can´t guess what they would have done if they´d wanted the opposite.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Nerevar-as wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

What makes those two stories bad for you? Was it simply the acting or execution that made it bad? Or was it the entirety of it's existence, the introduction of new information to the star wars universe and histories to the characters previously left unexplored?

Acting and execution, coupled with a few bad ideas. Not everything in Star Wars is good. Jar Jar Binks is bad no matter how you look at it. Anakin was portrayed pretty badly in both. The dialogue is all around corny. The execution was quite dull: "The Galactic Senate has failed to resolve a trade dispute, and thus the Trade Federation has decided to blockade a small planet in protest. The Galactic Senate is sending two Jedi Knights to mediate the matter."

Don't forget midichlorians 

Why?

Yes, they are pointless, but I just don´t see why a biological user interface changes anything in the Force.

I also wonder if I´m the only person who liked the approach to Anakin in the PT. He´s a more emotionally unstable version of Luke, which is about the only thing we knew back when they talked about him back in the OT.

Agreed about Jar Jar. And let´s not get into the attempts to "redeem" him in the 3D cartoon, can´t guess what they would have done if they´d wanted the opposite.

The reason I dislike the midi-chlorians is because it tries to make into science something that really should not be made into science. People liked the Force when it was more of a mystical supernatural power. It really wasn't popular how the midi-chlorians were invented. I also dislike the general portrayal of the Jedi in the Prequel trilogy.

I liked the concept of the Anakin approach in the Prequels, but the execution was terrible. I think people wanted to see an Anakin that had more of a mature, darker sense to him in his origin story in Episode I, and something of a more visible heroic flaw. They didn't want to see this cute, innocent, happy-go-lucky slave boy who would grow up to personally lead the execution and genocide of entire races of beings. That's why I love how the comics and novels portray how Anakin becomes Vader. They portray that in a way the movies never could.

[Nerevar-as]

But that´s my point about midis. They don´t do that. The Force is still an energy field created by all living beings (which makes Darth Traya´s plan in Kotor 2 effectively requiring whiping out the galaxy).

I have to disagreee about Anakin, I just hate it when you can see a character is going to go evil just by looking at him (it took me one shot to realize Pyro was going to join Mags in X-Men 2), yet everybody around him is oblivious. That´s just bad soap opera.. Same with most Anakin related EU, the moment nobody´s looking at him he goes psycho. I like more the 3D Clone Wars version, you see his good traits, but also how he loses control when something hits close to home, and also the toll the war is costing him. The movies mostly focused on his emotional turmoil, and the way the character comes across to the viewer suffers for that. But going DS is not a character gradually becoming more evil, or Luke killing Vader in RotJ wouldn´t have mattered.

[dreamgazer]

NeonFlux117 wrote...

See, JJ knows that star trek will always be second rate, so he went to go direct a real scifi series.

...

(laughs)

[HiddenInWar]

Imagine if Christopher Nolan was directing.

[Cainhurst Crow]

HiddenInWar wrote...

Imagine if Christopher Nolan was directing.

3 hours of talking and 15 minutes of action, along with semi-stilted dialouge that sometimes comes off as soapboxish?

I love his films, at least those post batman begins, but the man does have some pretty big tells.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Nerevar-as wrote...

But that´s my point about midis. They don´t do that. The Force is still an energy field created by all living beings (which makes Darth Traya´s plan in Kotor 2 effectively requiring whiping out the galaxy).

I have to disagreee about Anakin, I just hate it when you can see a character is going to go evil just by looking at him (it took me one shot to realize Pyro was going to join Mags in X-Men 2), yet everybody around him is oblivious. That´s just bad soap opera.. Same with most Anakin related EU, the moment nobody´s looking at him he goes psycho. I like more the 3D Clone Wars version, you see his good traits, but also how he loses control when something hits close to home, and also the toll the war is costing him. The movies mostly focused on his emotional turmoil, and the way the character comes across to the viewer suffers for that. But going DS is not a character gradually becoming more evil, or Luke killing Vader in RotJ wouldn´t have mattered.

That's the issue. Anakin isn't intrinsically bad, but it would be better if he had a heroic flaw that caused him to fall. Which they did actually do, just not that well. His selfish desire to keep those he loved from dying, his immense pride, his rage... They could have executed it far better.

And what keeps him in the Dark Side after he has fallen is his despair, his self-loathing and hatred, and his belief that the traits that made him great are what made him fall in the first place. 

The movies really screw it up. The books, comics, and games tell a far better story than the prequels ever did.

[Nerevar-as]

I like the PT, but they really feel like a one season TV series would have been a better format for the goals Lucas was trying to achieve. I think I got what he was aiming at in the global story and characters, but just 3 2+ hours movies limits how much you can tell.

I wouldn´t say Vader thought his good traits are what caused his downfall, from what I remember from RotS novelization he´s pretty aware of why he´s ended where he is. Ironically, falling removes such flaws, and that´s why (IMHO) he becomes such an effective villain. (Compare with Darth Caedus, who could well have called himself Darth Stupid considering why he falls and what he becomes). But on one side the DS is not just a choice, but something that corrupts the very soul (and from the OT, I got the idea it was pretty final, not SW version of comic-book death), and on the other until he learns of Luke, nothing about his previous life has any positive influence on him.

Modifié par Nerevar-as, 12 juillet 2013 - 10:33 .

[mybudgee]

To me the Dark Side has always been a matter of acceptance. To follow the "righteous" path, certain passions, certain extremes must be forsaken. The core of what actions one desires to see must become the goal... above all else. Including the self, including pleasure, including emotional ecstasy and agony.
To maintain this discipline is easier for some Jedi than for others, but they must watch that line closely. Even stepping near it is grounds for suspicion. It is a slippery slope.
The Dark side has a similar discipline, but directed outward. To embrace the path of the Sith, all base emotion and passionate impulses must not only be acknowledged, but be allowed to utterly consume the mind. The master is the very embodiment of wisdom, and they must be obeyed to the letter. There is likely not much of a struggle, or need to maintain. Merely a surrender to what the force has likely always whispered... "You can do anything, the only obstacles are those you allow to impede you"

I hope that if there are Dark force users in Episode 7, they have a true, icy demeanor and no remorse or inner "struggles" ... to me, this makes the Force itself seem less powerful.

Modifié par mybudgee, 13 juillet 2013 - 09:28 .

[Nerevar-as]

The way I got it from the OT, the Force as itself is kind of neutral and a part of nature itself, while the DS is a corruption of it by channeling the Force through fear, anger, agression and so on (Yoda in ESB). The idea I got from both Luke and Anakin, they "fall" the moment one such emotion completely dominates them, fear of losing Padmé and their child for Anakin, hate against Vader (close call) for Luke. Following the Anakin example, Palpatine plays him ensuring he keeps getting darker, helped by Kenobi doing wrong everything Luke will do right 23 years later (there are a lot of pararels between both confrontations, and the different attitudes OB1 and Luke show, reluctanct acceptance the former, complete refusal the latter, choosing something neither of his teachers had even considered).

[Cainhurst Crow]

I actually don't see the dark side of the force as a corruption, but as two sides of the same coin, neither side of the force being a good or a bad in it of itself, but more so what we make of it. The dark side is all about freedom of the self, and a disregard of others in order to achieve it. The light side is all about restriction and repression of the self, and with an emphasis on everyone else but you. To the dark side, you are everything, and to the light side, you are nothing. They work in unison in the universe, creating a balance of freedom and restraint, and they keep balance through their constant conflict. That's just my personal view after watching the movies and playing the games, since I feel the only time conflict arises is when humans or living beings and political and non-force related ideology ends up getting mixed into the discussion of the force in universe, and a black and white us vs them attitude pervades into the study of the force and it's ways.

Modifié par Darth Brotarian, 13 juillet 2013 - 09:07 .

[mybudgee]

I agree Brotarian.

BTW-- has it occured to anyone that there may be a tie-in between Ep. 7 and the rumored 2015 Star Wars Battlefront game??

Modifié par mybudgee, 13 juillet 2013 - 10:34 .

[Nerevar-as]

Well, Lucas compares the DS to a cancer, and there´s no balance there. If it exists, you are in trouble. Just don´t look at it from a D&D aligment perspective (which at face value makes no sense, good doesn´t need evil), but as a part of nature. Nature just is, neither good not evil (which I think is where our views differ), and the way I see it so is the Force. The DS according to ESB comes from using the Force through negative emotions, and that requires a self-aware living being. But whether it´s like Anakin and Luke, who were more or less normal people with emotional problems (especially Anakin), or people who craved for power and took the easiest and more powerful option (in the sense evil doesn´t stop itself from doing things good wouldn´t), it seems to always end with a fascist like remorseless tyrant (which kind of agrees with your view).

About games, no idea. But unless there´s more than one team working on SW, I find it unlikely. Don´t care much either, I wanted KotoR 3 and that´s never going to happen.

[Cainhurst Crow]

But what makes the lightside so much more than better? What makes it more right in nature than using your instincts nature itself installed into you? No animal or being in nature resist it's natural urges or desires, no creature but man is capable of suppressing their emotions.

How is it that the lightside, which preaches the more unnatural doctrine or repressing nature and removing yourself from natural urges, more aligned to the path of nature, than the other path which teaches you to accept your emotions and feelings as part of yourself? We have had just as many evil jedi as there have been good sith, and I know that sounds like an oxymoron, but it's a fact of the story and lore.

Frankly, I am kind of sick and tired of the "dark means evil" and "light means good" mentality that has plauged the use. George lucas thinks it's a cancer, okay. George thinks a lot of things, like jar jar binks being a good character or the christmas special needing to be in lore.

The problem has, to me at least from reading up on the lore on wookipedia of the force and watching a few videos, I will admit now I am probably not the best to discuss this as my knowledge of the books lore is limited. But from what I read, most of the problems with using either the light or dark sides of the force come less from their natures, and more the politics surronding them. The dark side is used primarily by those devoute to the sith empire, which is in it of itself nothing but a political orginization. The jedi, contrast, are sided with another rival political faction, the galactic republic. I think if we removed the politics from the force, we'd get two schools of thought who aren't that different from eachother, and not one whose a cancer and the others that's the only path one should be allowed to travel, lest they be hunted down and forced to submit or be executed.

Modifié par Darth Brotarian, 14 juillet 2013 - 01:46 .

[Gatt9]

NeonFlux117 wrote...

The suits are predicting 1.2 billi in gross for Ep. 7. Disney will be swimming in cash. The film will probably suck, but I still line up day 1 at midnight. Why? Cause I'm a total SW fanboy. See, JJ knows that star trek will always be second rate, so he went to go direct a real scifi series.

Actually,  I'd put money on it being The Empire Strikes Back good.  JJ Abrams is right up there with Cameron,  Whedon, and Peter Jackson.  All of them,  in their element and left to do their thing,  are very consistent about generating great media.

I think 1.2 billion may be low balling it honestly.  I wouldn't be at all surprised if he hits 1.5 billion.