4806 réponses à ce sujet

[dreamgazer]

Wait, how in the hell can anyone make a dollar-figure prediction on a movie that's two years away and hasn't cast a single role as of yet?

[mybudgee]

I refuse to let the candle go out for KotOR 3...

Modifié par mybudgee, 14 juillet 2013 - 08:55 .

[Liamv2]

mybudgee wrote...

I refuse to let the candle go out for KotOR 3...

It died when swtor came out 

[Nerevar-as]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

But what makes the lightside so much more than better? What makes it more right in nature than using your instincts nature itself installed into you? No animal or being in nature resist it's natural urges or desires, no creature but man is capable of suppressing their emotions.

How is it that the lightside, which preaches the more unnatural doctrine or repressing nature and removing yourself from natural urges, more aligned to the path of nature, than the other path which teaches you to accept your emotions and feelings as part of yourself? We have had just as many evil jedi as there have been good sith, and I know that sounds like an oxymoron, but it's a fact of the story and lore.

Frankly, I am kind of sick and tired of the "dark means evil" and "light means good" mentality that has plauged the use. George lucas thinks it's a cancer, okay. George thinks a lot of things, like jar jar binks being a good character or the christmas special needing to be in lore.

The problem has, to me at least from reading up on the lore on wookipedia of the force and watching a few videos, I will admit now I am probably not the best to discuss this as my knowledge of the books lore is limited. But from what I read, most of the problems with using either the light or dark sides of the force come less from their natures, and more the politics surronding them. The dark side is used primarily by those devoute to the sith empire, which is in it of itself nothing but a political orginization. The jedi, contrast, are sided with another rival political faction, the galactic republic. I think if we removed the politics from the force, we'd get two schools of thought who aren't that different from eachother, and not one whose a cancer and the others that's the only path one should be allowed to travel, lest they be hunted down and forced to submit or be executed.

Again, no, Lucas doesn´t want the CS in the lore. And for that matter you could argue how on Middle Earth is the One Ring able to corrupt beings who don´t care about power. His universe, his rules. There´s no gray in the Force, and good thing too. I´ve gotten very tired of characters doing evil and calling it gray (can´t get near X-Men right now) because they don´t see (or look for) any other way. The world is complicated, but a necessary evil is still evil. And the Force doesn´t give a damn about politics, nature just doesn´t care.

Anyway, I think I´ll agree to disagree, but have you read the Night Watch books by Sergey Lukyanenko? It does explore in quite detail the balance between "dark" and "light" supernatural beings, and has some very good twists.

[Nerevar-as]

dreamgazer wrote...

Wait, how in the hell can anyone make a dollar-figure prediction on a movie that's two years away and hasn't cast a single role as of yet?

I guess based on the previous films box-office.

And I´d be more concerned about who´s writing it than who´s directing. Don´t know how much JJ likes to meddle with the script. Cameron, Whedon and Jackson usually involve themselves a lot in the writing, and not always with good results. Jackson especially is very hit and miss. I´ll never forgive what he did to Faramir and Strider.

[Cainhurst Crow]

@Nerevar-as

So grey jedi, jensaarai, those types of orders are wrong? They embrace elements of the dark side snd light side, so does thst mean they have malignant cancer or something of the force?

And what about people like darth vectivus? Does he not exist according to lucas? Has he been officially cut out of the lore by him for not being evil or desiring to destory and conquer everything around him?

[Nerevar-as]

There´s some canon level scale somewhere out there. It goes something like movies going first, then I think the 3D Clone Wars series and I guess the one Disney is producing, then other EU, and then fanfiction.

I still don´t know what a grey jedi is, sometimes it looks like people who go their own way rather than following the Jedi code (which really needed a revision by the time of the PT), others that they use both DS and LS. The Dawn of the Jedi comics take it to another stage, as powers are either balanced or, like lightning, draw only from one side. About Vecticus, I didn´t buy Lumiya´s BS for a second, Nelani was right about future Darth Idio...er Caedus. For that matter, you could say all Sith between Bane and Palpy where nice guys because nobody heard of them. I think Vecticus had invented those ghostly things too (sold the book away so can´t check), if so don´t tell he wasn´t evil. DS by it´s very nature draws from negative emotions (ESB), and corrupts, or Luke killing Vader wouldn´t have amounted to anything (RotJ). It´s like having the One Ring and using it in full. Thankfully Tolkien seems untouchable by this moral revisionism.

But I think trying to grey the Force is just the same process as what made comic book characters go dork age. I get the feeling back in the 70 - 80s a good part of the world thought things where B&W, showing in fiction, and now they´ve realized it´s a much more complicated place and this is translating to fiction. I didn´t have such view, so having somewhere where morals were clear was a nice break from reality, and I´m missing it more and more.

[Cainhurst Crow]

I really don't like black and white morality tales because I feel it trivializes the characters, concepts, and setting of the story by making things no longer a characters fault but because they were being controlled by a higher power.

It would be better if there was no correct school when it came to the force, if the force was a neutral thing ans the two paths wete just thst, paths of attaining an attachment to the force. No good or evil in either school, just people and how they choose to use their powers and the force affecting them.

Also, and this is just me, but the prophecy makes no sense now. Since you cannot balance something by eliminating everything of one side of an issue snd only leaving the other side to compensate afterwards. It just reeks of jed hi propoganda used to bolster their way over their long rivals, little more than political disagreement leading to an ideology war where everyone suffers and dies because comprise and understanding don't exist in this conflict. 

Modifié par Darth Brotarian, 14 juillet 2013 - 09:43 .

[Nerevar-as]

I took the prophecy as the Force in its natural state (and being a part of nature, I´d say it is kind of neutral), and the DS being the inbalance as it is a corruption of said natural state. Interestingly enough, the LS is never named as such in the movies. Jedi just talk about the Force, or the Living Force (unifying Force is also an EU concept, and most authors seem to work assuming QGJ was wrong to recruit Anakin and extend it to his philosophy, well meant but wrong - I see it the other way around).

I also don´t think Lucas follows D&D good vs evil balance idea, which is a good thing as it seems they took law and chaos from Moorcock and named them good and evil, when they aren´t the same thing at all (Lords of Law were much nicer than those of Chaos, but the essences themselves weren´t the same thing).

I do like stories with moral complexity, but don´t like it added to settings where it wasn´t present to begin with. Especially when it involves saying "evil" is not that bad, or it isn´t evil if it is necessary.

Modifié par Nerevar-as, 14 juillet 2013 - 10:08 .

[Cainhurst Crow]

I'm more a unifying force beliver myself, at least its tennants on the forces nature, so that's where a lot my disagreement is stemming from.

[mybudgee]

I side with Brotarian. Anytime strict lines are drawn when the subject is people and their choices or beliefs ( fictional people are people too!) it almost always signifies a narrow mind set. Which is the most dangerous trait of many villians..

[Cainhurst Crow]

Only a sith Jedi deals in absolutes.

Modifié par Darth Brotarian, 15 juillet 2013 - 08:42 .

[LTD]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

@Nerevar-as

So grey jedi, jensaarai, those types of orders are wrong? They embrace elements of the dark side snd light side, so does thst mean they have malignant cancer or something of the force?

And what about people like darth vectivus? Does he not exist according to lucas? Has he been officially cut out of the lore by him for not being evil or desiring to destory and conquer everything around him?

Everything in EU including books, video games and whatvers  super officially exists until a movie by Lucas(or by JJ and Disney now I guess) state otherwise.

On the other hand, I think it should be obvious nobody who ends up involved in  gazillion dollah business of making a flick about Star Wars will give two shïts about what some obscure paperback-only Stawa EU book released in 1987 says about Force, future,Purple Jedi, etc.

Modifié par LTD, 15 juillet 2013 - 09:25 .

[Nerevar-as]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Only a sith Jedi deals in absolutes.

Oximorons aren´t part of Jedi lore, that´s clear.

The idea I got from the movies was that QGJ (and OT Yoda and OB1) listened to the Force and let it guide him, trusting in it to the future rather than looking himself, while the rest of the order scanned the Force to choose the path to the future they wanted. This proved fatal once Palpy obscured them.

[Cainhurst Crow]

LTD wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

@Nerevar-as

So grey jedi, jensaarai, those types of orders are wrong? They embrace elements of the dark side snd light side, so does thst mean they have malignant cancer or something of the force?

And what about people like darth vectivus? Does he not exist according to lucas? Has he been officially cut out of the lore by him for not being evil or desiring to destory and conquer everything around him?

Everything in EU including books, video games and whatvers  super officially exists until a movie by Lucas(or by JJ and Disney now I guess) state otherwise.

On the other hand, I think it should be obvious nobody who ends up involved in  gazillion dollah business of making a flick about Star Wars will give two shïts about what some obscure paperback-only Stawa EU book released in 1987 says about Force, future,Purple Jedi, etc.

I still maintian the belief that disney is going to retcon everything out of star wars except the 6 films and possibly the old republic, but it will be a very big strech if the old republic doesn't get retconned out of exsistence by disney not wanting to deal with it. I will hold this belief until disney proves otherwise, and make preparations to accept the new star wars universe being a lot less crowded and a lot more empty in the coming future.

[mybudgee]

^ Sadly probably going to be the case..

[Cainhurst Crow]

Though TBH I wouldn't mind the EU getting trimmed and thinned a bit, maybe have a thorough look through to get it's continuity straightened out. Because honestly, there are some major problems and inconsistencies that are cropping up, and I don't mean just from the clone wars series, which while it did change things was at least a great show with a surprisingly gripping and mature narrative complete with arcs. I mean, what animated show does arcs anymore that isn't from japan? They need more of them, that's for sure.

Anyway, a prime example of this would be with the more obscure species few care about. Like the kaleesh. Basic things like "how many fingers do they have?" or "what do their legs look like" or even just their appearance, size, culture, history, all of it is very jumbled because very few will care if different artist and writers have different ideas for the species.

[mybudgee]

They do not have to throw out the EU characters completely. JJ & the script people can use the names or some traits of the characters and make a few adjustments. There are just too many epic moments and cool dynamics for them to scrap EVERYTHING. Seems egotistical and foolish to me..

[mybudgee]

http://www.starwars7...ready.html#more

Modifié par mybudgee, 18 juillet 2013 - 08:46 .

[Cainhurst Crow]

Interesting. Very interesting.

Also, looking up the different levels of canon, and how not even lucas focused on canon outside of the stuff he personally worked on, maintaining that there was his canon, and the other writers canon, and that the duality was okay even if his canon outranked theirs...yeah, EU ain't looking like it's gonna make it.

[mybudgee]

As long as Jennifer Lawrence is not involved.. I am happy

[mybudgee]

I have a guess: Han Solo will be killed off in Episode 7

[mybudgee]

Bump for Jaster Mareel

[mybudgee]

I hope all this secrecy from Disney is because they have some HUGE news...

[Angrywolves]

Jennifer Lawrence could play Hans and Leia's daughter.