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[Angrywolves]

That must be the route you get if Bethany joins the circle. I think the grey warden route is safer, at least in the short term. I would never join the templars and meredith and allow them to commit genocide including possibly my own sister.

[lil yonce]

Getting off-topic now. This thread isn't about Meredith, or Bethany, or what choice anyone made at the end of DA2.

[Eveangaline]

Youth4Ever wrote...

Eveangaline wrote...
There were two more with Bethany, weren't there? So it's not just Bethany. She's literally going against the entire point of the annullment and the only reason anyone is fighting.

I don't think there was anyone with Bethany. She was only mage left alive in that room. You can spare three others as the annulment gets underway, and Meredith spares them only to pacify Cullen and Hawke. The annulment is a success. A handful of mages may make it out alive, but the rest in a Circle of hundreds, if not thousands, are put to death.

Since by definition the entire point of an annullment is to kill every single mage in the circle, then no if a handful survive it is not a success. Randomly sparing some who offered to stop fighting for their lives doesn't make sense since the entire circle made that offer.

[Xilizhra]

Youth4Ever wrote...

Getting off-topic now. This thread isn't about Meredith, or Bethany, or what choice anyone made at the end of DA2.

Your premise was broken to begin with; we may as well talk about things that are actually happening.

[lil yonce]

Xilizhra wrote...
Your premise was broken to begin with; we may as well talk about things that are actually happening.

Do that in your own thread and not in mine. Please take your narrow-minded self elsewhere. 

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 04 juillet 2013 - 11:27 .

[Angrywolves]

Well mages we know are still alive.
I pointed out some.
Others have pointed out some from the books/comics.
Could be someone new. Anaeron ? Wynn's ex pupil. Misspelled his name I'm sure. I am sure it could be someone we've never heard of before.

[lil yonce]

What do you think could be reasons for divisional splits between the mages at Andoral's Reach (the major reason, small reasons, is it a long-standing ideological difference of opinion, something new, etc.) What is their message to mages who reject this Libertarian lead revolution? On what terms do you think a new leader would construct a compromise? Can they use the Libertarians and templars to their advantage? If their long term goal is autonomy, and their short term goal a compromise between the Circle and Chantry, what is their plan for accomplishing that?

[ames4u]

In the book Asunder-

****SPOILER!!****
-
-
Wynne dies in order to transfer the Spirit of Faith to Evangeline. Wynne's son Rhys takes her place as leader of the Aequitarians. So maybe Ryhs will show up in DA3? It's a possibility. Though probably not likely.

[Xilizhra]

Do that in your own thread and not in mine. Please take your narrow-minded self elsewhere.

Wynne was an Aequitarian whose primary concern was mage welfare. As Rhys fits both of these criteria, I suspect he would make a good replacement character for Wynne should he appear... although I don't know if DA is as comfortable with using novel characters as ME is, to be honest. However, I'd like to see him again, along with Adrian, and yes, he'd fill a similar role, though probably not a companion at this stage.

As for what Rhys could do... well, he's probably a prominent enough leader, possibly a direct lieutenant to Fiona, which should be interesting. I'd love to see him work together with Adrian if they can mend that fence, or perhaps the Inquisitor would be able to do that... that'd be quite interesting. They do complement each other's styles quite well, I feel, including in combat.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 05 juillet 2013 - 12:04 .

[lil yonce]

Xilizhra wrote...
Wynne was an Aequitarian whose primary concern was mage welfare. As Rhys fits both of these criteria, I suspect he would make a good replacement character for Wynne should he appear... although I don't know if DA is as comfortable with using novel characters as ME is, to be honest.

Her approach was worlds away from his and he is an Aequitarian in name only IMO.

However, I'd like to see him again, along with Adrian, and yes, he'd fill a similar role, though probably not a companion at this stage. As for what Rhys could do... well, he's probably a prominent enough leader, possibly a direct lieutenant to Fiona, which should be interesting. I'd love to see him work together with Adrian if they can mend that fence, or perhaps the Inquisitor would be able to do that... that'd be quite interesting. They do complement each other's styles quite well, I feel, including in combat.

From a character standpoint, if you have Adrian, you don't need Rhys to fill the same role. If both of them are present in DA:I, between the two Rhys would be the one to endorse compromise. And I think the fence was torpedoed. Not that he wouldn't care for what was once his friend, but working together? I don't see it.

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 05 juillet 2013 - 12:55 .

[LobselVith8]

Youth4Ever wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I suppose the difference is that I find nothing sensible or honorable in forcing mages to live their rules under the authority of figures who believe they have dominion over them by divine right. Freedom needs to be fought for at times. Andraste and Shartan didn't write the Imperium strongly worded letters, they fought for the freedom of their people. People died as a consequence. That's the reality of war.

What is your plan? For the confrontation and afterwards? Step-by-step. Do you even have one? I do. I don't trust a lunatic fringe with an angry mob mentality running off half-cocked without a plan, determined to drag everyone else into their mess. Separation is perhaps the most self destructive endeavor the Circle can undertake. Mages should fight for nothing less than true liberty, stability, and, of course, heads.

Nothing less than maintaining autonomy for mages who shouldn't have to live on their knees to fanatical zealots who think they have divine authority over anyone with magical ability. A millennia of servitude to the Chantry has finally been abolished, and I'm never going to advocate a return to the toxicity of the Chantry controlled Circles. Wynne's dream was for the Circles to get better; finally freed from the Chantry and their templars, that might finally transpire.

Youth4Ever wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I don't recall them justifying becoming abominations or consorting with demons,

Grace. Decimus. Anders. Uldred.

I'm addressing the mage leaders who advocated emancipation, not every mage in existence. As for your examples: Grace and Decimus were lunatics; mentally unhinged and divorced from reality. Anders bonded with Justice, but his story arc already addresses that he has a plethora of issues about the decision. And Uldred alone used demonology, summoning more demons than he could control.

Youth4Ever wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I recall the argument focusing on freedom from the Andrastian Chantry and the Templar Order. Like Grand Enchanter Fiona, some of us won't compromise on the autonomy of the mages when they finally freed themselves of the horrors of the Chantry of Andraste or the Order of Templars.

I agree with Senior Enchanter Torrin, "Ah, the short-sighted Libertarians. They'll get their way and take us all down with them."[/i] 

While I agree with Grand Enchanter Fiona, who gave up her freedom for the opportunity to free her people.

[lil yonce]

@LobselVith8; Go bloviate elsewhere. I don't care what you want for the mages. Discuss the topic or get out.

[LobselVith8]

Youth4Ever wrote...

@LobselVith8; Go bloviate elsewhere. I don't care what you want for the mages. Discuss the topic or get out.

You seem to be trying to police the thread when people provide views that you disagree with. You asked me questions; I answered them. You also seem to dislike how some of us view Wynne.

[lil yonce]

LobselVith8 wrote...
You seem to be trying to police the thread when people provide views that you disagree with. You asked me questions; I answered them. You also seem to dislike how some of us view Wynne.

Nope.

This is off-topic: Nothing less than maintaining autonomy for mages who shouldn't have to live on their knees to fanatical zealots who think they have divine authority over anyone with magical ability. A millennia of servitude to the Chantry has finally been abolished, and I'm never going to advocate a return to the toxicity of the Chantry controlled Circles. Wynne's dream was for the Circles to get better; finally freed from the Chantry and their templars, that might finally transpire."

"While I agree with Grand Enchanter Fiona, who gave up her freedom for the opportunity to free her people."

I don't care about your opinion about on that subject. Where in there is the discussion of a leader who opposes the separation decision???

And you didn't answer my questions anyway. "What is your plan? For the confrontation and afterwards? Step-by-step. Do you even have one?"

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 05 juillet 2013 - 01:12 .

[LobselVith8]

Youth4Ever wrote...

And you didn't answer my questions anyway. "What is your plan? For the confrontation and afterwards? Step-by-step. Do you even have one?" 

I told you my plan: to maintain mage autonomy. You obviously disliked it. Also, a step by step isn't possible when I don't know what my options are with the new protagonist. Capitulation to the templars, however, simply isn't an option for me.

[lil yonce]

LobselVith8 wrote...
a step by step isn't possible when I don't know what my options are with the new protagonist.

Oh. So you have no plan? Thought so.

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 08 août 2013 - 06:58 .

[LobselVith8]

Youth4Ever wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

a step by step isn't possible when I don't know what my options are with the new protagonist.

Ooooh. So you have no plan? Thought so. 

With a new protagonist? I don't even know who he could be. I do have ideas and scenarios with an ethnically Antivan apostate Champion leading a mage rebellion with Merrill.

Are you asking me to share my ideas on this? :happy:

[lil yonce]

Yes, share. I would not follow any leader without a plan, and I have yet to hear a plan from Libertarian supporters.

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 05 juillet 2013 - 01:37 .

[Xilizhra]

Her approach was worlds away from his and he is an Aequitarian in name only IMO.

Her approach matched his own by the end, and he's an Aequitarian whether you like it or not.

From a character standpoint, if you have Adrian, you don't need Rhys to fill the same role. If both of them are present in DA:I, between the two Rhys would be the one to endorse compromise. And I think the fence was torpedoed. Not that he wouldn't care for what was once his friend, but working together? I don't see it.

You can easily have two people on the mage side, can you not?

I don't care about your opinion about on that subject. Where in there is the discussion of a leader who opposes the separation decision???

You said "Wynne's replacement" in the topic, and I'm sticking to it rather more closely than you. She was against separation when it seemed like the situation might be salvageable, which it no longer is in any form. Wynne's replacement would aid the rebellion and never abandon the people of the Circle, as would Wynne herself.

[Azaron Nightblade]

cosima wrote...

I personally would love to see Galyan from Dawn of the Seeker implemented at some stage, particularly in light of his history with Cassandra. He's a happy-go-lucky type of character much like Anders was in Awakening, minus the parochial bigotry and short-sightedness. The kind that you could picture being able to improve Mage-Templar relations through diplomacy.

I would love for it to be Galyan - though I'm not getting my hopes up since movie characters rarely ever make an appearance in the game franchise that inspired the movie.
Then again, I think Bioware holds the copyrights to this one and the characters in it... so there's still a chance.
If by any chance we get them as companions... inter-companion romance options, Mr Gaider!!!! 

[lil yonce]

Xilizhra wrote...
Her approach matched his own by the end, and he's an Aequitarian whether you like it or not.

And I flatout disagree with that assesment.

You can easily have two people on the mage side, can you not?

But you don't need two.

You said "Wynne's replacement" in the topic, and I'm sticking to it rather more closely than you.

"So, who do you think will take up Wynne's mantle as the moderate Circle mage reformer?"

A leader to replace Wynne would advocate Circle reform under the Chantry.

She was against separation when it seemed like the situation might be salvageable, which it no longer is in any form.

According to you. The entire basis of the topic is that a leader would believe it salvageable and pick up her work with the Divine where she left off.

Wynne's replacement would aid the rebellion and never abandon the people of the Circle, as would Wynne herself.

She would not support the rebellion, or the Libertarians who hijacked her convclave and would sacrifice every Circle mage for their rose-colored ideal. She wanted to protect the mages and she would do that by initiating a compromise that avoids confrontation.

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 05 juillet 2013 - 04:27 .

[Xilizhra]

But you don't need two.

I would very much like them.

"So, who do you think will take up Wynne's mantle as the moderate Circle mage reformer?"

A leader to replace Wynne would advocate Circle reform under the Chantry.

The Chantry that the templars have rebelled against? It doesn't matter what relations with the Chantry are like; the templars are gunning for them no matter what. And if they're claiming to control the Circles, that seems like a definite coup against the Chantry, or at least an act of war.

According to you. The entire basis of the topic is that a leader would believe it salvageable and pick up her work with the Divine where she left off.

Which has nothing to do with trying to stop the war, because the Divine no longer has any part in that decision since the templars decided to stop listening.

She would not support the rebellion, or the Libertarians who hijacked her convclave and would sacrifice every Circle mage for their rose-colored ideal. She wanted to protect the mages and she would do that by initiating a compromise that avoids confrontation.

Whether or not she agrees with their ideals is irrelevant; the templars are absolutely the aggressors and have to be stopped by whatever means necessary. Whether relations with the Chantry can be improved is a separate topic. Also, who's more trustworthy, the rest of the Circle or the templars?

[In Exile]

Xilizhra wrote...
Whether or not she agrees with their ideals is irrelevant; the templars are absolutely the aggressors and have to be stopped by whatever means necessary. Whether relations with the Chantry can be improved is a separate topic. Also, who's more trustworthy, the rest of the Circle or the templars?

The templars were the abusive aggressors before, but that didn't stop her from being an apologist. She also doesn't really bite back if you suggest that the entire Circle should be imprisoned on suspicion of blood magic, even though Irving makes it clear that the fate awaiting him isn't pleasant, and they're ostensibly very close. 

I really don't have a hard time seeing Wynne justify the continued subjugation of the mages on the belief that there would be death on an even greater scale if they fought the templars. 

[lil yonce]

Xilizhra wrote...
The Chantry that the templars have rebelled against? ...the templars are gunning for them no matter what. And if they're claiming to control the Circles, that seems like a definite coup against the Chantry, or at least an act of war.

The templars want to reconcile with the Chantry.

It doesn't matter what relations with the Chantry are like;

Yeah, it does.

Which has nothing to do with trying to stop the war, because the Divine no longer has any part in that decision since the templars decided to stop listening.

And I disagree. Of course she has a part to play. She has Seekers and Templars loyal to her who are trying to stop it.

Whether or not she agrees with their ideals is irrelevant; the templars are absolutely the aggressors and have to be stopped by whatever means necessary.

And the Libertarians who hijacked her conference are blameless bystanders? No. They instigated this conflict.

Whether relations with the Chantry can be improved is a separate topic.

No, it is not. 

Also, who's more trustworthy, the rest of the Circle or the templars?

It doesn't matter who is more trustworthy. What plan makes the most sense for both sides is what matters. Fight the templars and die in droves with no real plan for the future (for the templars-- fight the mages and die in droves with no end to this conflict in sight) or work on compromise that avoids confrontation.

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 05 juillet 2013 - 02:28 .

[Xilizhra]

I really don't have a hard time seeing Wynne justify the continued subjugation of the mages on the belief that there would be death on an even greater scale if they fought the templars.

Well, that's no longer an issue because the death on a greater scale is happening anyway, and started even before the mages seceded, with that one Annulment for no reason in Rivain.

The templars want to reconcile with the Chantry.

They want to bully the Chantry into submission.

And I disagree. Of course she has a part to play. She has Seekers and Templars loyal to her who are trying to stop it.

Assuming that she doesn't get blown up by the magical explosion that survey mentioned.

And the LIbertarians who hijacked her conference are blameless bystanders? No. They instigated this conflict.

They instigated nothing that hadn't already been provoked thousands of times over, and the war itself was wholly Lambert's doing and declaration.

It doesn't matter who is more trustworthy. What plan makes the most sense for both sides is what matters. Fight the templars and die in droves with no real plan for the future (for the templars-- fight the mages and die in droves with no end to this conflict in sight) or work on compromise that avoids confrontation.

You can't avoid confrontation; the entire world is confrontation now between the mages and templars. You can't just stop a war that's been this long in coming.