660 réponses à ce sujet

[Eveangaline]

franciscoamell wrote...

Eveangaline wrote...

I've never killed her, but she can be killed in places other than the area with andrastes ashes, right?

I think that's her only death on screen. You could never recruit her and then Lothering would be destroyed by the darkspawn but that doesn't seem to kill her.

Huh..I could have swarn I'd heard you could kill her in the party camp if she confronted you about the ashes there.

[Sister Goldring]

Ok well....I guess that maybe we could focus on the fact that those players who killed Leliana in the temple had in fact just downed a noxious cocktail of dragon's blood and mystical corpse ash. I mean really who'd know what the effect of that would be upon the human/elven/dwarven system?

I think it's entirely possible that events did not unfold in quite in the manner the PC remembers. Perhaps when they thought they were decapitating Leli they were instead mutilating a pot plant while she flipped them the bird and stomped off.

Anyway as I like this option way better than magical head reattachment, it's my new head canon!

Edit - actually do they drink the ashes.....I can't remember....DAMN!  Ok if not ingestion then fumes.......I can work with fumes. 

Modifié par Sister Goldring, 05 juillet 2013 - 06:36 .

[Zetheria Tabris]

EJ107 wrote...

People go on too much about that stupid decapitation thing. How many people actually decided to kill Leliana and got that special killing blow animation? Two, maybe three?

I never killed her without reloading, but every time I got the decaptiation animation. Don't know about anyone else though.

[Brodoteau]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Nightdragon8 wrote...

sigh and another round of "but she lost her bead" 

not real never happened not canon

It was depicted on screen.  If we're supposed to ignore that, then are we also supposed to ignore the contents of cutscenes?  And then won't the plot of both games suddenly be a complete mystery to us?

If these games are supposed to be cinematic, then the stuff we see happen needs to be stuff that actually happens.  Either the game is cinematic or it isn't.  They can't have it both ways.

This is disingenous unless you never ever ever reload.  Because, your death happens on screen too.  And, I'm guessing that you probably, at some point, did "die" during the game.  So you are having it both ways.  Why isn't your character's death "canon"? 

So, how many times did you fail to save Fereldan?  If you did manage to do it without "dying" the entire game, than why does that one have more weight than the numerous times that you did die? 

Forget about dying, did you never reload to experience different dialogue or the consequences of a different choice?  That's disingenous too. 

Multiple realities exist in a game where you can replay those realities.  I enjoy the idea that Leliana "reloaded" and simply played it a different way.  
 Bondari reloads... after all.

Modifié par Brodoteau, 05 juillet 2013 - 03:34 .

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

It varies from person to person, OP.

1. Leliana's resurrection is not explained, therefore it's a retcon. (My decisions don't matter.)
2. Even if Leliana's return is explained, and explained well, it's a plot armour cop-out. (I don't like it when any character is brought back from the dead. It's cheap.)
3. I hate Leliana. (Even if she was alive I wouldn't want to see her again.)
4. I want to be angry at Bioware. (And this is a good enough reason as any!)

Personally I'm waiting to see if her resurrection is explained. If it is done well, I'll accept it. If it's not, then eh.

Modifié par Shadow of Light Dragon, 05 juillet 2013 - 03:30 .

[David Gaider]

EJ107 wrote...
People don't look at it and go "Leliana's alive- therefore she must not have died" they look at it and go "Leliana's alive- therefore Bioware must have ignored the possibility of her death".

That does indeed seem to be what some people do, yes.

While I don't agree with scapegoating or jumping to conclusions I do have to be incredibly honest and say that I too just went with the latter explanation at the time, because there was no evidence otherwise and it seemed like the most likely explanation.

I don't think it was necessary to go into any great detail in-game, but if it was decided that if Leliana fought the warden the ashes kept her alive then just adding a piece of gossip between two NPC's about the ashes being able to revive people from near death or talk of a woman who claims to have been "saved by the Maker" or something similar would have sufficed to show that it was thought out rather than ignored for inconvinience. Leliana could even have been given an throwaway line of dialogue along the lines of "I've been too close to death myself" or something like that.

Leliana does have an alternate line or two that depends on her having died in DAO, though I forget what they are. She did not launch into an explanation of how she survived, of course, as that would not have made sense in context-- and I doubt any such explanation would have made (or will in the future make) many of the complainers happy.

Ultimately, I guess one can call it a retcon. Normally when that word's used, it means that a previously established event never happened. We're not saying that Leliana was never killed, just that she survived. One could still say it's a retcon of something they expected was established, however, I suppose. If someone doesn't like that development, or wants to cling to the deathblow animation (which never had any effect elsewhere in DAO) as a reason why it's impossible ... well, I guess that's up to them. They'll have to wait and see what we do with it in DAI, though I imagine some will find a reason to be displeased about it no matter what we do with it. Which is fine by me.

Modifié par David Gaider, 05 juillet 2013 - 04:58 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

Brodoteau wrote...

This is disingenous unless you never ever ever reload.  Because, your death happens on screen too.  And, I'm guessing that you probably, at some point, did "die" during the game.  So you are having it both ways.  Why isn't your character's death "canon"?

In that reality, it is.

The problem is, in the reality that the player actually played, Leliana got decapitated.

Leliana can reload all she wants, but that doesn't stop the reality in which Leliana died from being the one the player experienced.

What is the point of the save import if that reality isn't being maintained?  I suggest, again, that we simply shouldn't have a save import, and instead just let players choose variables on a checklist.  If the coherence of the reality isn't maintained, and all the save import does is let the player set some (but not all) variables, wouldn't a checklist be less confusing?

And yes, my participation in this thread was intended, from the start, to serve as a criticism of the save import.

[Bionuts]

And like I said before, I'm OK with them retconning (or whatever). I don't expect perfection.Writers make mistakes. I see it all the time in all mediums it really isn't that big of a deal to me even though I dislike Leliana (after her divine stuff)dddd
Just hope I get to kill her or the chantry in DAI

[wright1978]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Brodoteau wrote...

This is disingenous unless you never ever ever reload.  Because, your death happens on screen too.  And, I'm guessing that you probably, at some point, did "die" during the game.  So you are having it both ways.  Why isn't your character's death "canon"?

In that reality, it is.

The problem is, in the reality that the player actually played, Leliana got decapitated.

Leliana can reload all she wants, but that doesn't stop the reality in which Leliana died from being the one the player experienced.

What is the point of the save import if that reality isn't being maintained?  I suggest, again, that we simply shouldn't have a save import, and instead just let players choose variables on a checklist.  If the coherence of the reality isn't maintained, and all the save import does is let the player set some (but not all) variables, wouldn't a checklist be less confusing?

And yes, my participation in this thread was intended, from the start, to serve as a criticism of the save import.

The save import recognises that Leilana died, it just doesn't support the headcanon that, that was the end of her.

[Reptillius]

I guess I'm slightly odd. I never ran into the leliana being dead thing. My little snafu in the story progressing from one game to the other was actually with Anders himself. For the hell of it I had my mage run-through romance Anders in DA:O... The ending if you do that and keep Anders alive through the end of DA:O-A and in your party does not match up going into DAII. I wouldn't feel too bad about that except that Anders is kind of a big part in the way DAII progresses.

but I understand that is also something very few players really ran into as well.

Modifié par Reptillius, 05 juillet 2013 - 07:04 .

[nightscrawl]

David Gaider wrote...

... or wants to cling to the deathblow animation (which never had any effect elsewhere in DAO) as a reason why it's impossible ... well, I guess that's up to them.

Decapitations aren't canon?! Dammit!

Reptillius wrote...

I guess I'm slightly odd. I never ran into the leliana being dead thing. My little snafu in the story progressing from one game to the other was actually with Anders himself. For the hell of it I had my mage run-through romance Anders in DA:O... The ending if you do that and keep Anders alive through the end of DA:O and in your party does not match up going into DAII. I wouldn't feel too bad about that except that Anders is kind of a big part in the way DAII progresses.

but I understand that is also something very few players really ran into as well.

Uh... you'll have to rephrase this or something to be more specific. There are NO romances in DAO: Awakening. It is NOT possible to romance Anders in that game, nor any of the other companions. There is a flirt that a female Warden can do yes, but it is just a line of dialog and nothing comes of it. Even in his huge blog post about Anders DG says, "... it didn’t really matter for Awakening since there were no romance plots there anyhow..."

Modifié par nightscrawl, 05 juillet 2013 - 07:08 .

[Azaron Nightblade]

nightscrawl wrote...

Decapitations aren't canon?! Dammit!

Shhh, not so loud! Such talks are considered heresy on this thread!
Everyone should bow and respect the All Mighty Decapitation.

[Nightdragon8]

David Gaider wrote...

EJ107 wrote...
People don't look at it and go "Leliana's alive- therefore she must not have died" they look at it and go "Leliana's alive- therefore Bioware must have ignored the possibility of her death".

That does indeed seem to be what some people do, yes.

While I don't agree with scapegoating or jumping to conclusions I do have to be incredibly honest and say that I too just went with the latter explanation at the time, because there was no evidence otherwise and it seemed like the most likely explanation.

I don't think it was necessary to go into any great detail in-game, but if it was decided that if Leliana fought the warden the ashes kept her alive then just adding a piece of gossip between two NPC's about the ashes being able to revive people from near death or talk of a woman who claims to have been "saved by the Maker" or something similar would have sufficed to show that it was thought out rather than ignored for inconvinience. Leliana could even have been given an throwaway line of dialogue along the lines of "I've been too close to death myself" or something like that.

Leliana does have an alternate line or two that depends on her having died in DAO, though I forget what they are. She did not launch into an explanation of how she survived, of course, as that would not have made sense in context-- and I doubt any such explanation would have made (or will in the future make) many of the complainers happy.

Ultimately, I guess one can call it a retcon. Normally when that word's used, it means that a previously established event never happened. We're not saying that Leliana was never killed, just that she survived. One could still say it's a retcon of something they expected was established, however, I suppose. If someone doesn't like that development, or wants to cling to the deathblow animation (which never had any effect elsewhere in DAO) as a reason why it's impossible ... well, I guess that's up to them. They'll have to wait and see what we do with it in DAI, though I imagine some will find a reason to be displeased about it no matter what we do with it. Which is fine by me.

ah I know, it should be used in a flashback cutscene, and then have it do  a "what really happened was...." it was just a huge arugment and Leliana left. tho I think would receive more flak doing that than just ignoreing the people

[Reptillius]

nightscrawl wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

... or wants to cling to the deathblow animation (which never had any effect elsewhere in DAO) as a reason why it's impossible ... well, I guess that's up to them.

Decapitations aren't canon?! Dammit!

Reptillius wrote...

I guess I'm slightly odd. I never ran into the leliana being dead thing. My little snafu in the story progressing from one game to the other was actually with Anders himself. For the hell of it I had my mage run-through romance Anders in DA:O... The ending if you do that and keep Anders alive through the end of DA:O and in your party does not match up going into DAII. I wouldn't feel too bad about that except that Anders is kind of a big part in the way DAII progresses.

but I understand that is also something very few players really ran into as well.

Uh... you'll have to rephrase this or something. There are NO romances in DAO: Awakening. It is NOT possible to romance Anders in that game, nor any of the other companions. There is a flirt that a female Warden can do yes, but it is just a line of dialog and nothing comes of it.

Perhaps befriend might be a little bit better word... either way.  He actually stays on with the Grey Wardens and Vigil's Keep rather permanently by doing so in that ending. with only very brief absences from the Grey Warden's there and staying rather close with the PC while they are there.   It doesn't hold to a 10 year gap where he possibly ends up dead.

His more default ending provided you don't get him killed however sees him wander away shortly after the events of DA:O-A taking place.

Modifié par Reptillius, 05 juillet 2013 - 07:25 .

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

David Gaider wrote...

Leliana does have an alternate line or two that depends on her having died in DAO, though I forget what they are. She did not launch into an explanation of how she survived, of course, as that would not have made sense in context-- and I doubt any such explanation would have made (or will in the future make) many of the complainers happy.

Nothing makes everyone happy. I'm curious what those lines were now...the way people talk I was under the impression they didn't even exist. I know Anders had lines for if he was said to have died in Awakening, and remembered being very pleased at this being acknowledged.

Ultimately, I guess one can call it a retcon. Normally when that word's used, it means that a previously established event never happened. We're not saying that Leliana was never killed, just that she survived. One could still say it's a retcon of something they expected was established, however, I suppose. If someone doesn't like that development, or wants to cling to the deathblow animation (which never had any effect elsewhere in DAO) as a reason why it's impossible ... well, I guess that's up to them. They'll have to wait and see what we do with it in DAI, though I imagine some will find a reason to be displeased about it no matter what we do with it. Which is fine by me.

Personally I think there's a (not unjustified) opinion amongst players that when they 'kill' something in combat, it's dead unless the game tells them otherwise. For instance, in the fight where Zevran ambushes the party in DA:O the game informs you he's alive and asks you if you want to finish the job or interrogate him. This is makes for great RP.

A character literally returning from the dead or being magically saved? Given Wynne, I can see it.  Honestly, it's easier to accept than a character simply surviving combat without any clues they were still alive, deathblow or no, and this is why: The PC is (usually) an adventurer with enough adventuring savvy by that point to make sure enemies are dead before trying to loot the body, lest the 'slain' get a surprise attack in. Plus, there's something to be said for not wanting to leave an enemy at your back. And if the NPC was a friend, despite the argument coming to blows? Well...wouldn't you check if the mortally injured soul was alive?

But anyway, I still hope we see an explanation one day. Given where Leliana can be killed, it's not like you can't be creative.

[TheKomandorShepard]

I don't understand why peoples bring back that they cut her head but that only happened in gameplay which often work in own way like leliana telling us stars come out i look at the sky and only moon was there , gameplay also let us romance both characters what is impossible because in-universe every know your LI and and LI didn't allow you romance someone else but in gameplay this is possible.

I don't like when devs start resurrect characters one ok im fine with one but at least four in 2 games where resurrection shouldn't exist.I felt awkward in BG 2 where few characters to which i could say "but i killed you" and there import doesnt exist so it's understandable.But that what you do in gameplay is miserable excuse because as we know it's impossible that any human could survive dozen hits with sword or freeze like in gameplay so decapitation is only in gameplay.

Modifié par TheKomandorShepard, 05 juillet 2013 - 08:37 .

[Senior Cinco]

EDIT : I did not read through the thread. This is just my insight, as I'm sure this is the single most redundant comment.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

The main issue is that when you decapitate someone it's hard to imagine them returning. If you defile the ashes she turns on the player. It's not like you inadvertently just killed her on a whim.

It was pitched before DA2 that what you did in the DA series, so far, would have merit and reflect so in the gameworld of DA2. Instead we got meaningless cameos and retconned fallen characters.

It doesn't help matters when a lead writer gets a wild hair and responds with "If we bring someone back, it's because we wanted to."

Translation : "Your input and gameplay means squat."

That is the precedence of the outlash of reviving fallen characters from previous releases.

Modifié par Senior Cinco, 05 juillet 2013 - 08:42 .

[Dutchess]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

Leliana does have an alternate line or two that depends on her having died in DAO, though I forget what they are. She did not launch into an explanation of how she survived, of course, as that would not have made sense in context-- and I doubt any such explanation would have made (or will in the future make) many of the complainers happy.

Nothing makes everyone happy. I'm curious what those lines were now...the way people talk I was under the impression they didn't even exist. I know Anders had lines for if he was said to have died in Awakening, and remembered being very pleased at this being acknowledged.

I only recall one lousy line: "The Maker knew it was not my time." 

It's on youtube as well:

She says: "The Maker knew it was not my time. There is more for me to do in this world." 

Modifié par renjility, 05 juillet 2013 - 09:23 .

[Boycott Bioware]

Leliana in DA2 is a clone, that is the only logical and sensible explanation

Even if we don't kill her in DA:O, her epilogue says :-
http://dragonage.wik...logue_(Origins)

i. Leliana will go back to Orlais to seek out Marjolaine if she is not in love with the Warden and Marjolaine is still alive.

- she maybe died killed by Marjolaine

ii. Leliana will lead an investigation into the darkspawn, at the behest of Anora or Alistair,

- she maybe die in the Deep Road, she's not a Grey Warden, she may got tainted or become Broodmother

iii. Leliana will aid the Chantry in leading an expedition to the Urn of Sacred Ashes

- she maybe dead killed by dragons, we only kill one dragon, don't forget there are many dragon eggs there

iv. If The Warden makes the Ultimate Sacrifice and Leliana is romanced but not hardened, she will compose what will become a famous ballad of your journey. After one performance, Leliana quietly vanishes. It is said that the Maker came to her in the night, and her maid found Leliana smiling, with tears in her eyes, saying that at last she would soon be reunited with her love.

- she commit suicide

iv. If The Warden makes the Ultimate Sacrifice and Leliana is neither romanced nor hardened, she composes what will become a famous ballad of the journey. Leliana quietly vanishes; some say she has returned to Orlais.

- she return to Orlais and maybe died there

v. If The Warden makes the Ultimate Sacrifice and Leliana is both romanced and hardened, she will compose what will become a famous ballad of the journey. After one performance, Leliana quietly vanishes. Some say that she returned to her life of adventure, others say she returned to Orlais to hunt down her enemies, but she never forgets the one she loved.

- she maybe died killed by her enemies

vi. Leliana may die at the hand of The Warden if she is present in the party after destroying the Ashes of Andraste unless 3 specific conditions are met (See Kolgrim's Offer for details). If not present, she may abandon the Warden soon after. This is dependent on dialogue with Genitivi after defiling the urn, and how you respond when approached by Leliana in camp (she can be coerced or tricked into staying).

- enough said

Modifié par Qistina, 05 juillet 2013 - 09:28 .

[Wulfram]

David Gaider wrote...

 We're not saying that Leliana was never killed, just that she survived.

Um, you realise that's a totally nonsensical sentence, right?

[Dean_the_Young]

Wulfram wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

 We're not saying that Leliana was never killed, just that she survived.

Um, you realise that's a totally nonsensical sentence, right?

She'd hardly be the first person in the DAO who died but was saved by supernatural means.

If she was saved by supernatural means. I mean, I've met someone who was clinically dead for almost five minutes before being resucitated.

[Wulfram]

In a fantasy setting it's possible to have been killed and still be alive, yes. But you can't say that such a person survived. Because surviving means not dying, and being killed means dying.