660 réponses à ce sujet

[MarchoftheVolus]

Qistina wrote...

How someone SURVIVE when head chopped off?

The Maker saved her of course. 

[crimzontearz]

Am I the only one that sees a difference between "the author deems that the butterfly effect generates an outcome of your choice that is WILDLY different from what you expected" and "the author deems that you severing Leliana's head at the neck either never happened or was rendered invalid by an act of God"?

Really? Just me?

[Boycott Bioware]

MarchoftheVolus wrote...

Qistina wrote...

How someone SURVIVE when head chopped off?

The Maker saved her of course. 

"At first i was afraid, i was petrified, and i think i could never live without you by my side, but then on so many nights thinking how you made me wrong, i go strong, i learned how to get along...and you come back, from outerspace..." - I Will Survive

Modifié par Qistina, 05 juillet 2013 - 01:04 .

[Senior Cinco]

Ziggeh wrote...
Same as from Zevran when he joins your party shotrly after you remove his? Same as Templars not noticing the mage raining fire and blood magic down around them in combat?

I'm not following your examples there.

If you kill someone. It should be rather evident that one would expect them to actually die. If I choose to behead a given character it should be relatively obvious that I choose for them to be dead.

Do you expect all of them to change the world dramatically? That's asking a bit much.

I'm not asking for it to change from day to night. Just acknowledge my efforts and allow the game to reflect them.

Modifié par Senior Cinco, 05 juillet 2013 - 01:08 .

[Cheylus]

I don't care about minor plotholes and retcons if it makes the game better in the long run.

I liked the fact you were able to use your warden in Awakening even if he died (to be honest, I would have loved to use the orlesian warden with my save game even more but RESSOURCES, I guess)... Am I the only one?

[Lotion Soronarr]

What needs to happen:



Permanately.

[Ziggeh]

Senior Cinco wrote...I'm not following your examples there.
If you kill someone. It should be rather evident that one would expect them to actually die. If I choose to behead a given character it should be relatively obvious that I choose for them to die.

Things that happen in combat are frequently not acknowledged within the rest of the plot. I don't disagree that ideally they would be, but the horse has bolted a bit several years after a games release. I don't think the story of subsequent games should be beholden to what is effectively a bug in the first.

Senior Cinco wrote...I'm not asking for it to change from day to night. Just acknowledge my efforts and allow the game to reflect them.

So say, if she acknowledges that she survived?

[Boycott Bioware]

The real Leliana Song...



"...and you see me, somebody new..."

[Wulfram]

Ziggeh wrote...

Did you check her pulse? People are falling over in the combat all the time, and then they get up.

The codex says that she's dead.  And since this isn't a codex with an author, unreliable narrator doesn't apply.

Also death animation blah behead blah doesn't not count just because it's inconvenient blah blah... this conversation has already been done.

I'm totally applying a double standard there, but yes, I don't entirely disagree. I just don't think many things are established to a high degree of accuracy. Especially in DA2.

We're indeed limited in our interaction with the world by the nature of the medium

That is why we must be able to trust that a character who appears dead by the conventions of the game is in fact dead, unless the game gives us clear cues to the contrary.

(To be clear, I don't object to Leliana's death being retconned.  I object to the claim that her not dying is not a retcon.  Her being resurrected wouldn't be a retcon, but I suspect I'd find it more problematic than a retcon - this isn't DnD, resurrection is supposed to be a big deal not a convenient way to get out of a plothole)

[Senior Cinco]

Ziggeh wrote...

Things that happen in combat are frequently not acknowledged within the rest of the plot. I don't disagree that ideally they would be, but the horse has bolted a bit several years after a games release. I don't think the story of subsequent games should be beholden to what is effectively a bug in the first.

Then what would be the significance of a ported savefile? I can't understand why one would defend otherwise.

So say, if she acknowledges that she survived?

If you just stab someone, then it is feasibly possible to accept a return. But when you remove their head form their body... how can that be disputed?

Nonetheless, it still comes down to the simple fact that a savefile has absolutely no relevant impact on the latter of the series, as proposed. That is the intricacies of the issue.

[Rawgrim]

The headchopping really isn`t that valid an argument. I have done the same to Zevran and Arl Howe in my playthorughs, and they still talk to me afterwards. Its just one of those situations where the combat animations don`t mix well with the game.

Bringing her back makes no sense, though. Neither did bringing back Anders before he was actually killed, for that matter.

[Ziggeh]

Neofelis Nebulosa wrote...
Your reading comprehension leaves much to be desired then.
Fine, a small recap if you aren't willing to work for a proper discussion yourself:

I appreciate this goes round in circles and it's distressing to cover the same ground over and over, but the definite state of her corpse and the fixed state of magic aren't things that have been explored within this thread. Happy for you to point out other threads, just don't think antagonistic dismissal gets you anywhere when it's inaccurate.

Neofelis Nebulosa wrote...
So Leliana is defeated, presumably dead (Codex itself states she's dead in her personal entry, so it's fair to assume whoever writes the Codex did in fact check if she's dead or just knocked out).

I think it's fairly unlikely that the person who wrote the codex went to the cave, guarded by magic and lost to history, where the Warden commited a major crime against the religion of the continent, to check if her body was still there. And didn't say, hear the story second hand (or further) and happen to write it down.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

renjility wrote...

I only recall one lousy line: "The Maker knew it was not my time." 

It's on youtube as well:

She says: "The Maker knew it was not my time. There is more for me to do in this world." 

Thanks!

That's definitely something Leliana would say. Though I definitely agree with DG in that it wouldn't make sense for her to explain why she's alive to characters who couldn't know she's been 'killed', those lines do leave something to be desired...

Still, more than we get from Oghren.

[Ziggeh]

Wulfram wrote...
The codex says that she's dead.  And since this isn't a codex with an author, unreliable narrator doesn't apply.

You're certain of that? Because we have evidence to the contrary: Leilana walking about.

Wulfram wrote...We're indeed limited in our interaction with the world by the nature of the medium
That is why we must be able to trust that a character who appears dead by the conventions of the game is in fact dead, unless the game gives us clear cues to the contrary.

Again, not-dead Leilana is a fairly clear cue to the contrary. That aside, that "conversation being done" doesn't mean it has been answered in any way.

And I don't trust that anything in DA2 definitely happened. It was a story being told to us by an unreliable narrator.

Senior Cinco wrote...
If you just stab someone, then it is feasibly possible to accept a return. But when you remove their head form their body... how can that be disputed?

Again, Zevran, all talkative after losing the thing through which he talks. It can be disputed because it's a gameplay conceit with no impact upon the overall story, like the numerous other such conceits.

Senior Cinco wrote...
Nonetheless, it still comes down to the simple fact that a savefile has absolutely no relevant impact on the latter of the series, as proposed. That is the intricacies of the issue. 

If you're talking in general terms, I think you're making assumptions about what was promised. If you're talking specifically about this event, you're applying double standards. I'm not certain which.

[Senior Cinco]

Ziggeh wrote...]If you're talking in general terms, I think you're making assumptions about what was promised. If you're talking specifically about this event, you're applying double standards. I'm not certain which.

I yield. It does nothing to advance things when one is flooded with repetition and redundancies.

If you are willing to accept retconning then hugs and kisses to you, my dear. Why is it so hard to want a series, that is prominent on being a staple RPG and allow your actions to be transferred to another installment actually carry weight to that claim?

Again... that is the core gripe with her returning. One can bring all the details of what is and is not acceptable as being "animation" related or sheer choice of the writers.

It doesn't make sense at all and the player is left feeling ripped off as their actions clearly mean diddle.

Nothing double standard about that either. It should be clear that all I'm asking for is the common sense in the analogy of throwing a ball up and it actually come back down.

EDIT : I mean, the thread question is specific to her. However, I feel that same no matter the character or the event. 

Modifié par Senior Cinco, 05 juillet 2013 - 02:04 .

[crimzontearz]

wait is someone really arguing that "the author did not retcon/handwave a character's death because we see her alive and thus she was never dead to begin with in spite of what we were previously told"?


REALLY???

[Eltaulier]

Cause I ain't sayin she's a gold digger ... but she messin with no broke ....

Modifié par Eltaulier, 05 juillet 2013 - 02:24 .

[Herr Uhl]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

Still, more than we get from Oghren.

I thought you had to cheat to get Oghren down far enough for that. Or did the feastday pack change it?

[Ziggeh]

Senior Cinco wrote...
If you are willing to accept retconning then hugs and kisses to you, my dear. Why is it so hard to want a series, that is prominent on being a staple RPG and allow your actions to be transferred to another installment actually carry weight to that claim?

Those aren't mutually exclusive.

[crimzontearz]

Ziggeh wrote...

Senior Cinco wrote...
If you are willing to accept retconning then hugs and kisses to you, my dear. Why is it so hard to want a series, that is prominent on being a staple RPG and allow your actions to be transferred to another installment actually carry weight to that claim?

Those aren't mutually exclusive.

like I was saying above, a direct retcon invalidates your choice

[Bfler]

Neofelis Nebulosa wrote...

Bringing back from the precipice of death, possible. Bringing back someone that's most definately rotting away for hours, days, whatever, not possible.

Leandra? Her body was cut in pieces and then reanimated.

[Ziggeh]

crimzontearz wrote...

like I was saying above, a direct retcon invalidates your choice

It alters the outcome of one of your choices, not the choice itself, and in this case, acknowledges that choice.

[Senior Cinco]

Ziggeh wrote...

Senior Cinco wrote...
If you are willing to accept retconning then hugs and kisses to you, my dear. Why is it so hard to want a series, that is prominent on being a staple RPG and allow your actions to be transferred to another installment actually carry weight to that claim?

Those aren't mutually exclusive.

What are you referring to exactly?

Two events are 'mutually exclusive' if they cannot occur at the same time.

[Rawgrim]

Bfler wrote...

Neofelis Nebulosa wrote...

Bringing back from the precipice of death, possible. Bringing back someone that's most definately rotting away for hours, days, whatever, not possible.

Leandra? Her body was cut in pieces and then reanimated.

Didn`t last long in her case.