660 réponses à ce sujet

[Twisted Path]

Wulfram wrote...

Well I ended up giving up on that series in the final book because I just didn't care about any of the characters left, and to be honest barely knew who they were.

Ugh. I love the Malazan books myself but I can see that being a problem with having loads of characters and a lot of them dying.

In his blog post Gaider said he wouldn't go into why they decided to reuse characters but I imagine a big part of it is that fans love a lot of these characters and want to see them. I'm probably asking for something (a series of roleplaying games where each installment is extremely reactive to the player's choices and has lots of branching storylines, but there's not much continuity between installments so the next game can be just as reactive,) that's not all that popular.

[Iakus]

David Gaider wrote...

Sure. I'll point out that we've never said her head wasn't cut off, either. Some people just really seem to obsess over that as if the mere possibility that Leliana could have been decapitated makes any potential explanations invalid. Resurrection is not something that happens in the DA universe, not real resurrection, so whatever happened was clearly something extraordinary... yet I doubt what most complainers are grousing about is the lack of an explanation (which they wouldn't accept anyhow) but rather that one of their precious choices has been invalidated (or "retconned", if that even makes sense).

Granted there will almost certainly be people who won't like the explanation.  But at the same time I'm willing to bet the bulk of the complaints is the current lack of explanation.  Yes, I personally am trusting that there is a reasonable explanation for this extraordinary occurence (well, I'm trusting that it's more reasonable than the Larzarus "It's just a matter of resources" Project) 

So they'll continue to complain and imply that the invalidation of that choice unravels the very fabric of the universe and renders all their choices invalidated through the establishment of a canon which overrides everything they've ever done ever. Which wouldn't bother me either, even though that's not what we're doing.

Personally, I'd remind them that the choice they were presented with was not to kill Leliana, but whether or not to defile the Ashes.  The fight with Leliana was a consequence of that.  So her survival isn't an invalidation of a choice, it's altering its repercussions.  As the Ashes (so far as I know) remain defiled by the dragon blood 

[berelinde]

Ash Wind wrote...

As it stands now, all we know is it’s possible to kill Leliana, and she still appears in DA2, and we don’t know why.
Given that its in-game content, its easy to conclude that if an answer is ever to be provided, it won’t be until the Fall, 2014. Which is fine, but how relevant will it be at that point? If Leliana appears in DAI, then it might be relevant, if she doesn’t, it will be little more than ‘oh, there’s an answer to that odd situation to that game that was released 2 and a half years ago.'

I'd be willing to forgo any explanation whatsoever if it meant that I never had to look at her again. I know, I know, she's indispensible to the plot of every game, DLC, and novel and must therefore appear in all of them, but it is annoying. It's like being allergic to eggs at a birthday party: you want to enjoy yourself, but you can't eat anything and the other guests think you're rude for refusing.

But yeah, I think if Leliana does show up in DAI, it will probably because she's the next Andraste or something. I'd say that it wouldn't be fan service if she did appear, but that would be too simple a dismissal. Leliana's effectiveness as a symbol is at least partially due to her popularity.

And no, my saved games weren't invalidated by the decision to resurrect her. If one of my Wardens "killed" her, she did it by leaving her in Lothering. There was nothing to prevent her from leaving.

[Wulfram]

Ziggeh wrote...
I think it's fairly clear that in either case it's knowledge available to the Warden. The Warden thinking she is dead does not equal she is dead.

Well, this is a fantasy CRPG protagonist we're talking about here.  They're not going to leave any corpse without examining it very thoroughly for loot.  So you'd think they'd notice if there was any breathing or whatnot going on.

(Particularly if it was going on without a head)

[Lotion Soronarr]

Wulfram wrote...

Well, this is a fantasy CRPG protagonist we're talking about here.  They're not going to leave any corpse without examining it very thoroughly for loot. 

False.
Not everyone is a loot-a-holic.

Like I bother looting all corpses.

[Sylvius the Mad]

wright1978 wrote...

The save import recognises that Leilana died, it just doesn't support the headcanon that, that was the end of her.

I'm not saying the save import creates the inconsistency.  I'm saying the save import causes all of this wailing and gnashing of teeth.

If we didn't have the save import, we wouldn't need to be having this discussion at all.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Wulfram wrote...

It is explicit that Leliana died. It couldn't be anymore explicit if the entire Bioware team came round to your house and started singing "Leliana is ****ing dead"

 
Nope.
Only in yo head dawg.

[HiroVoid]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

wright1978 wrote...

The save import recognises that Leilana died, it just doesn't support the headcanon that, that was the end of her.

I'm not saying the save import creates the inconsistency.  I'm saying the save import causes all of this wailing and gnashing of teeth.

If we didn't have the save import, we wouldn't need to be having this discussion at all.

Saying something should be removed because it causes an argument isn't much of an argument.

I don't personally care for the save import system since I feel it leads to a lack of options to have your character to act since save imports have to be kept in mind for the sequel, but obviously, it's a feature that a lot of people enjoy who don't really care about that.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

It
is explicit that Leliana died. It couldn't be anymore explicit if the
entire Bioware team came round to your house and started singing
"Leliana is ****ing dead"

 
Nope.
Only in yo head dawg.

Like I said in a previous post, her being dead was almost certainly the case in DAO where the story and game is more self-contained, but a decision was simply made that Bioware wanted to use her in future installments.

Modifié par HiroVoid, 05 juillet 2013 - 05:02 .

[David Gaider]

iakus wrote...
Personally, I'd remind them that the choice they were presented with was not to kill Leliana, but whether or not to defile the Ashes.  The fight with Leliana was a consequence of that.  So her survival isn't an invalidation of a choice, it's altering its repercussions.  As the Ashes (so far as I know) remain defiled by the dragon blood 

Oh, that's true! I will have to remember that.

[Sylvius the Mad]

EntropicAngel wrote...

At the expense of hindering the world's consistency across the series.

But the Leliana thing is causing people to perceive a lack of consistency across the series.

It cuts both ways.  I don't think you can call the save import a straight win for world coherence.

[Wulfram]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

It is explicit that Leliana died. It couldn't be anymore explicit if the entire Bioware team came round to your house and started singing "Leliana is ****ing dead"

 
Nope.
Only in yo head dawg.

OK, so tell me how a CRPG character could be more explicitly dead than Leliana was.

[HiroVoid]

As for Leliana being knocked out, doesn't Oghren mention something like that if he appears in Awakening despite being killed in Origins?

[Sylvius the Mad]

David Gaider wrote...

Since this is another topic that has come up yet again, I shall point to my blog post which addresses it.

That is hilarious, by the way.  And entirely correct.

[Ziggeh]

Wulfram wrote...
Well, this is a fantasy CRPG protagonist we're talking about here.  They're not going to leave any corpse without examining it very thoroughly for loot.  So you'd think they'd notice if there was any breathing or whatnot going on.

(Particularly if it was going on without a head)

Definitely related to the head issue: concession to gameplay. Any time you're told to hurry you can spend as much time as you like pulling boots off random raiders and exchanging trousers.

[Nefla]

I just hope she doesn't play a large role in DA3, I find her very boring (unless you romance her, then she seems CREEPY and boring), she's like Wesley Crusher :/

[Cheylus]

What about my choice?
I defiled the ashes, killed Leliana, took her head and made a skull-beer-funnel out of it.

[nightscrawl]

David Gaider wrote...

Resurrection is not something that happens in the DA universe, not real resurrection...

In case someone mentions it, it's worth noting that the Dragon Age abilities Revival (DAO), Revival (DA2), Regroup, and the bomb Mythal's Favor all revive "allies who have fallen in battle." In DAO specifically, it is stated to raise them "from unconsciousness."

[Giltspur]

Wulfram wrote...

Ziggeh wrote...
I think it's fairly clear that in either case it's knowledge available to the Warden. The Warden thinking she is dead does not equal she is dead.

Well, this is a fantasy CRPG protagonist we're talking about here.  They're not going to leave any corpse without examining it very thoroughly for loot.  So you'd think they'd notice if there was any breathing or whatnot going on.

(Particularly if it was going on without a head)

So I'm guessing you missed Leliana's sleight of hand.  It's understandable.  She is a rogue after all.  She knew before the fight began that she might not be able to defeat the Warden.  It's always a risk, and one that a trained spy and infiltrator has to be prepared for.  So she always carries tetrodotoxin.  It can induce a coma-like state which can result in a person being mistaken for dead.  And it can wear off days later.  Granted, it normally just kills people.  But Leliana has over a long period of time trained herself to be highly resistant to toxins.

So once she realized she was going to lose, she quickly took the tetrodotoxin, but you couldn't see it because her hands were too fast.  She knew you'd think your killing blow would be the end of her.  She knew you'd try to loot her body and think that her lack of breathing was evidence of her death.  But she also knew that days later she would wake up, and you would be long gone.

Modifié par Giltspur, 05 juillet 2013 - 05:39 .

[crimzontearz]

Giltspur wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Ziggeh wrote...
I think it's fairly clear that in either case it's knowledge available to the Warden. The Warden thinking she is dead does not equal she is dead.

Well, this is a fantasy CRPG protagonist we're talking about here.  They're not going to leave any corpse without examining it very thoroughly for loot.  So you'd think they'd notice if there was any breathing or whatnot going on.

(Particularly if it was going on without a head)

So I'm guessing you missed Leliana's sleight of hand.  It's understandable.  She is a rogue after all.  She knew before the fight began that she might not be able to defeat the Warden.  It's always a risk, and one that a trained spy and infiltrator has to be prepared for.  So she always carries tetrodotoxin.  It can induce a coma-like state which can result in a person being mistaken for dead.  And it can wear off days later.  Granted, it normally just kills people.  But Leliana has over a long period of time trained herself to be highly resistant to toxins.

So once she realized she was going to lose, she quickly took the tetrodotoxin, but you couldn't see it because her hands were too fast.  She knew you'd think your killing blow would be the end of her.  She knew you'd try to loot her body and think that her lack of breathing was evidence of her death.  But she also knew that days later she would wake up, and you would be long gone.

funny....my rogue's dex was way higher than Leliana's, he would have noticed, also she died from a single critical hit....just saying, this kind of explanation is kinda ridiculous, can we not resort to that?

Modifié par crimzontearz, 05 juillet 2013 - 05:55 .

[nightscrawl]

kazuya246 wrote...

Are you implying that the choice is only there to serve the current game itself rather than the series and universe as a whole. Why should anyone expect it to work that way or be welcoming to it being like that?

Eh I would be perfectly fine if all choices and results were confined to the game they were presented in. To me, the fact that we have had these carry overs and cameos and such is only a bonus.

Some extras fit better than others, I think. During an Act 2 argument with Anders he can say, "A mage saved us all from the Blight," if you imported a mage Warden save. It's a very minor detail, but one that fits with the scene very well. Those kind of tidbits, and not the extra quests or cameos, even though they're fun, are the best uses of the import system IMO.

The reason I like imports generally is because they make the world seem larger. If everything was confined to a single game, it would seem much smaller without the references to events that occurred outside of that particular game. That said, the entertainment value of the games wouldn't be destroyed for me if they decided to go to a more nuclear format.

[TheKomandorShepard]

crimzontearz wrote...

Giltspur wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Ziggeh wrote...
I think it's fairly clear that in either case it's knowledge available to the Warden. The Warden thinking she is dead does not equal she is dead.

Well, this is a fantasy CRPG protagonist we're talking about here.  They're not going to leave any corpse without examining it very thoroughly for loot.  So you'd think they'd notice if there was any breathing or whatnot going on.

(Particularly if it was going on without a head)

So I'm guessing you missed Leliana's sleight of hand.  It's understandable.  She is a rogue after all.  She knew before the fight began that she might not be able to defeat the Warden.  It's always a risk, and one that a trained spy and infiltrator has to be prepared for.  So she always carries tetrodotoxin.  It can induce a coma-like state which can result in a person being mistaken for dead.  And it can wear off days later.  Granted, it normally just kills people.  But Leliana has over a long period of time trained herself to be highly resistant to toxins.

So once she realized she was going to lose, she quickly took the tetrodotoxin, but you couldn't see it because her hands were too fast.  She knew you'd think your killing blow would be the end of her.  She knew you'd try to loot her body and think that her lack of breathing was evidence of her death.  But she also knew that days later she would wake up, and you would be long gone.

funny....my rogue's dex was way higher than Leliana's, he would have noticed, also she died from a single critical hit....just saying, this kind if explanation is kinda ridiculous, can we not resort to that?

I doubt that we can look on companions stats they are more for gameplay , like morrigan should be intelligent but her cunning is very low , sten and anders too.Stats also work to define our character attributes like intelligence or strength and they have impact on actual world in the game and we can use them in dialouges sometimes.Thats what happend in combat with her is rather unreliable because in real life they can't survive dozen hits with sword but in gameplay they do so we can asume somethings doesn't happen in da universe when you play in gameplay and in-universe they avoid injuries.    

Modifié par TheKomandorShepard, 05 juillet 2013 - 06:09 .