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[LobselVith8]

addiction21 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

It is the only explanation given in Origins as to why the ashes have healing properties. 

No it is not. The other one is that it is divine. The cause of some higher power. Neither that or lyrium are proven to be the reason why but both are there.

I'd view that as a matter of faith, while I was thinking something more akin to a scientific explanation. I certainly don't dispute that Leliana and Wynne believe that the ashes are divine.

addiction21 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

It is a recton since it changes the previous established narrative of Leliana being dead.

No its not because we were never promised that sort of power. Even then if BiioWare covers the possibility of her being dead in the future then it has not been handwaved or retconned. Something they have been adamant about covering.

Let’s look at the definition of a recton: "Retroactive continuity, or retcon for short, is the alteration of previously established facts in the continuity of a fictional work." As the definition explains, Bioware's decisions about what previously happened to Leliana at the ruins of the temple doesn't change that it's a recton, since a recton (retroactive continuity) is about changing what was previously established in the narrative.

addiction21 wrote...

You not liking it or feeling that you didn't get the outcome you wanted does not make it a retcon. Throwing retcon around does not make your argument more valid. Retcon just like plot hole has lost all meaning around here.

Not for people who are aware of what recton actually happens. The developers certainly have the right to handwave Leliana's death, as they did with Oghren's demise, as well as not even bothering to explain how Anders and Justice met each other if Anders was not recruited and Justice was killed in the Dragonbone Wastes, but that doesn't make it any less of a recton.

Whether you see the developers' decision to recton Leliana's death as a good or a bad thing is another matter entirely, and as this thread illustrates, some people don't mind rectons - or handwaves, if you prefer. I didn't kill Leliana with my character, either, nor did I ruin the ashes with my elven mage.

addiction21 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

And there are very old corpses in the same room as the Urn.

What is your excuse for those old corpses? They stayed dead but Leliana did not? Did the lytium like her accent or hair so much it brought her back to life but not the rest? Why is this inanimate object, this thing so picky?

The developers didn't decide to bring them back, I suppose.

[Iakus]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

EDIT: Just as a note:

(or more accurately Lelianna chooses to commit suicide)

This statement is fundamentally and unequivocally inaccurate.  FWIW.

I think that was a humerous comment on Leliana's general squshiness, especially as compared to a high-level Warden

[IanPolaris]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

This statement is fundamentally and unequivocally inaccurate.  FWIW.

Not really.  I wrote that in a humorous vein, but I wasn't wrong.  Given the relative strengths of Lelianna (who is notoriously squishy) vs the Warden (of any type), choosing to attack the warden IS essentially suicide and Lelianna knows it (and it's why you can intimidate her into not attacking you).

It's akin to 'suicide by cop'.

-Polaris

[The Hierophant]

IanPolaris wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...
This statement is fundamentally and unequivocally inaccurate. FWIW.

Not really. I wrote that in a humorous vein, but I wasn't wrong. Given the relative strengths of Lelianna (who is notoriously squishy) vs the Warden (of any type), choosing to attack the warden IS essentially suicide and Lelianna knows it (and it's why you can intimidate her into not attacking you).
It's akin to 'suicide by cop'.
-Polaris.

The DA games suffer from gameplay and story segregation.

Modifié par The Hierophant, 06 juillet 2013 - 12:33 .

[IanPolaris]

The Hierophant wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...
This statement is fundamentally and unequivocally inaccurate. FWIW.

Not really. I wrote that in a humorous vein, but I wasn't wrong. Given the relative strengths of Lelianna (who is notoriously squishy) vs the Warden (of any type), choosing to attack the warden IS essentially suicide and Lelianna knows it (and it's why you can intimidate her into not attacking you).
It's akin to 'suicide by cop'.
-Polaris.

The DA games suffer from gameplay and story segregation.

Yes but not in this particular case.  If you pick the Intimidate option, Lelianna admits that if she attacks you, she'll die. 

-Polaris

[Twisted Path]

I wonder what percentage of players actually killed Leiliana. I know I never did and I would guess it's actually a vanishingly small number of people. Despite the impression you might get from the internet it seems like most people play these sorts of games as a good guy.

[Ziggeh]

Rawgrim wrote...
And if you fight her its to the death. All fights in the game are like that.

Zevran.

(Again)

Modifié par Ziggeh, 06 juillet 2013 - 01:16 .

[Rawgrim]

Ziggeh wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...
And if you fight her its to the death. All fights in the game are like that.

Zevran.

(Again)

The only exception to the rule.

[Angrywolves]

I think most people play as good guys. Makes absolutely no sense to kill of your own party members.

I think one of the possibilities in DAI will be for the Inquisitor to eliminate the chantry in which case players who killed leliana in DAO may have the opportunity to kill her permanently and for good.

[Ziggeh]

Rawgrim wrote...

The only exception to the rule.

Loghain.

[Rawgrim]

Ziggeh wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

The only exception to the rule.

Loghain.

Loghain yields. Then you decide if you kill him or not.

[The Hierophant]

IanPolaris wrote...

Yes but not in this particular case. If you pick the Intimidate option, Lelianna admits that if she attacks you, she'll die.

-Polaris

The response's meaning might vary depending on the party's makeup as fighting two or three highly skilled combatants is disadvantageous, in contrast to a playthrough with only her and the Warden as it soley notes the martial superiority of the Warden.

[IanPolaris]

Twisted Path wrote...

I wonder what percentage of players actually killed Leiliana. I know I never did and I would guess it's actually a vanishingly small number of people. Despite the impression you might get from the internet it seems like most people play these sorts of games as a good guy.

After the Faith Mission in DA2, I did it a lot more.

-Polaris

[Ziggeh]

Rawgrim wrote...

Loghain yields. Then you decide if you kill him or not.

I thought we were talking about the expected outcome of fights always being death? So aside from these two, Zathrian, the dudes in the proving grounds in the dwarf commoner origin and any others I can't recall, I don't remember the point.

Modifié par Ziggeh, 06 juillet 2013 - 01:35 .

[EnerPrime]

To everybody who claims the ashes cannot possible heal Leliana after you add dragon blood:

You guys Kolgrim is a crazy cultist who believes that Andraste went and got reincarnated as a dragon, right? Beacuse taking the crazy man's word as absolute fact is a horrible idea. Look where it got every other person who did so (aka everyone you kill to get to the temple). How the hell would Kolgrim actually know what can and cannot 'defile' the ashes and take away their power? At best he's got a high dragon telling him what to do, at worst it's just the voices in his head.

Maybe the ashes could have healed Leiana beacuse your stunt with the blood did nothing other than make them soggy.

[Rawgrim]

Ziggeh wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

Loghain yields. Then you decide if you kill him or not.

I thought we were talking about the expected outcome of fights always being death? So aside from these two, Zathrian, the dudes in the proving grounds in the dwarf commoner origin and any others I can't recall, I don't remember the point.

Some of them switch to a cutscene when your enemy has 1 percent HP left. Its for plotpoints and whatsnot. This doesn`t happen with Leliana. She dies like every other thug in the game. I guess we should expect everyone who wasn`t killed during a cutscene to return in DA:I. Since "out choices didn`t give the result we thought it would".

[Steppenwolf]

David Gaider wrote...

yet I doubt what most complainers are grousing about is the lack of an explanation (which they wouldn't accept anyhow) but rather that one of their precious choices has been invalidated

See, I don't like that. That's irritatingly flippant. The whole series is built around the player making choices that effect outcomes. Your attitude shows that you either don't care about that core principle of the games or you don't care about the experiences of the people playing the games.
If I did cut off Leliana's head and she was resurrected by the sacred ashes or a spirit then that's something worth noting in-game. To act like it's the players' fault for not assuming that you brought her back from the dead for an awesome in-game reason that we're unaware of is just nonsensical. Of course we see it as invalidating one of our decisions and of course we see that as a big deal considering what game we're playing. What is it that you don't get about this?

[Ziggeh]

Rawgrim wrote...

Some of them switch to a cutscene when your enemy has 1 percent HP left. Its for plotpoints and whatsnot. This doesn`t happen with Leliana. She dies like every other thug in the game.

My statement was that you choose a fight and not an outcome. Your counterpoint was that the outcome of a fight it always a death, thus you were in fact choosing an outcome. We are now clear this is not the case, I'm really not sure what cinematics (that you would have been unaware of prior to the fight) have to do with the expected result of that choice.

[Steppenwolf]

Ziggeh wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

Some of them switch to a cutscene when your enemy has 1 percent HP left. Its for plotpoints and whatsnot. This doesn`t happen with Leliana. She dies like every other thug in the game.

My statement was that you choose a fight and not an outcome. Your counterpoint was that the outcome of a fight it always a death, thus you were in fact choosing an outcome. We are now clear this is not the case, I'm really not sure what cinematics (that you would have been unaware of prior to the fight) have to do with the expected result of that choice.

Your argument doesn't make any sense. If you did get the decapitation cinematic then Leliana got her head cut off. If the possibility of Leliana getting her head cut off was never something BioWare wanted to happen then they could easily made sure it never did. If you choose to make a decision that causes Leliana to attack you and you cut her head off then that is the consequence of your decision. One is not disconnected from the other. Cause->Effect.

[Ziggeh]

BasilKarlo wrote...

Your argument doesn't make any sense. If you did get the decapitation cinematic then Leliana got her head cut off. If the possibility of Leliana getting her head cut off was never something BioWare wanted to happen then they could easily made sure it never did. If you choose to make a decision that causes Leliana to attack you and you cut her head off then that is the consequence of your decision. One is not disconnected from the other. Cause->Effect.

My point was that you are not choosing from a set of consequences. You make the choice based on aniticipated outcomes, not the actual outcomes themselves. If you choose to fight Leilana you choose whether or not you fight her, not whether or not she will have a head at the end. If you choose to fight and she continues to have and use a head, that doesn't mean the decision was removed, but that the outcome was less dramatic and/or impactful than you might have hoped. Which is a fair point, but not the one being made (generally).

[Steppenwolf]

Ziggeh wrote...

My point was that you are not choosing from a set of consequences. You make the choice based on aniticipated outcomes, not the actual outcomes themselves. If you choose to fight Leilana you choose whether or not you fight her, not whether or not she will have a head at the end. If you choose to fight and she continues to have and use a head, that doesn't mean the decision was removed, but that the outcome was less dramatic and/or impactful than you might have hoped. Which is a fair point, but not the one being made (generally).

That's irrelevant. If you cut her head off then you cut her head off. If you play Dragon Age 2 and you cut her head off in Origins then she's magically alive and intact without even a hint of an explanation. If they had intended her to survive that altercation then they could have easily eliminated the possibility of her getting her head cut off. They did not. They decided to use her again for DA][ and made the decision to ignore player agency.

Modifié par BasilKarlo, 06 juillet 2013 - 02:15 .

[Ziggeh]

BasilKarlo wrote...
That's irrelevant. If you cut her head off then you cut her head off. If you play Dragon Age 2 and you cut her head off in Origins then she's magically alive and intact without even a hint of an explaination. If they had intended her to survive that altercation then they could have easily eliminated the possibility of her getting her head cut off. They did not. They decided to use her again for DA][ and made the decision to ignore player agency.

Erm. Yes. It's irrelevant to the point you are making there. It was not irrelevant to the point to which I responded.

To clarify: I did not respond to the post you just made sometime earlier this afternoon. Partially because it's been covered in dev posts in the thread, but mostly because you hadn't made it then.

Modifié par Ziggeh, 06 juillet 2013 - 02:17 .

[addiction21]

lol at the "lore hounds" holding to the codex entries....

This dead horse has been beaten over your heads from the start. They at no point should ever be taken as a reliable source of information by themselves.

[IanPolaris]

addiction21 wrote...

lol at the "lore hounds" holding to the codex entries....

This dead horse has been beaten over your heads from the start. They at no point should ever be taken as a reliable source of information by themselves.

Not quite.  Those codex entries authored specifically by in-game people should always be regarded as information from that certain PoV and thus not entirely reliable.

The Codex question in this case does not have an in-game author and THOSE entries (like the game play codex entries) ARE supposed to be reliable.

I think the evidence is fairly clear.  Lelianna could be killed in DAO, and the people that wrote/developed Thedas wanted her around in DA2 and beyond and so changed their minds, but don't want to admit the retcon.  At least that's how I am seeing it.

-Polaris

[addiction21]

IanPolaris wrote...

I think the evidence is fairly clear.  Lelianna could be killed in DAO, and the people that wrote/developed Thedas wanted her around in DA2 and beyond and so changed their minds, but don't want to admit the retcon.  At least that's how I am seeing it.

-Polaris

If they wanted her in DA2 and beyond how could they have changed their minds? From the first meeting and conversations you have with her there is something unusual about her.

And no its not a retcon. It is not a retcon. Repeat it with me. It is not a retcon. Just because your course of action did not turn out how you wanted to (and retreating to flawed sources of information like the codex and "she looked dead because health bar") does not make it a retcon.

King Calian showing up and saying "oh that ogre thing never happened" is a retcon. On of many possible outcomes for a charcter not panning out how you thought it would IS NOT A RETCON.

Throwing retcon around does not make something bad or lend weight to your point. Everyone stop doing it.

P.S.
The same goes for Plot Hole