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[IanPolaris]

addiction21 wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

I think the evidence is fairly clear.  Lelianna could be killed in DAO, and the people that wrote/developed Thedas wanted her around in DA2 and beyond and so changed their minds, but don't want to admit the retcon.  At least that's how I am seeing it.

-Polaris

If they wanted her in DA2 and beyond how could they have changed their minds? From the first meeting and conversations you have with her there is something unusual about her.

And no its not a retcon. It is not a retcon. Repeat it with me. It is not a retcon. Just because your course of action did not turn out how you wanted to (and retreating to flawed sources of information like the codex and "she looked dead because health bar") does not make it a retcon.

King Calian showing up and saying "oh that ogre thing never happened" is a retcon. On of many possible outcomes for a charcter not panning out how you thought it would IS NOT A RETCON.

Throwing retcon around does not make something bad or lend weight to your point. Everyone stop doing it.

P.S.
The same goes for Plot Hole

Lelianna was dead.  Now she isn't.  It's a retcon to me.

-Polaris

[addiction21]

IanPolaris wrote...


Lelianna was dead.  Now she isn't.  It's a retcon to me.

-Polaris

Words don't change their meaning because you are unhappy.

[BlueMagitek]

Though, of all the retcons they could have made, Leliana returning to life is most plausible.

If Shale or Cairdin showed up though, I would be very surprised. I thought we pulled a Gollum and tossed them into magma.

[DPSSOC]

Faust1979 wrote...

I've honestly never did anything to make her turn on her in any of my games but there is a presedence for dead people coming back to life. Like Wynn who was dying or dead and now living on borrowed time. So there is no reason that Leliana couldn't have done the same thing

It's different for Wynne because Wynne is established and explained.  From the get go you're told something's off about Wynne, the one mage with her will mention she was pretty decisively dead, which you can acknowledge or dismiss as you choose.  Now if Lelianna was delivered with Feign Death as an ability already, or even just mentioned having done it in dialogue, many would have just shrugged it off, because it's established as something she can do regardless of how we've built her character.

This isn't really about precedent though this is about people's expectations not being met, if Wynne came back after fighting you over the ashes people would have been upset, even with the precedent established for her.  Lelianna was as dead as everyone else we fight in the game, we reduced her hit points to 0 and she fell down, that's always been enough.  People expected her to be dead, but she's not, this upsets them.

Also this leads to the downward spiral of; if Lelianna can come back without explanation (far as I know) well anybody we killed could come back.  Anybody who didn't die in a cutscene is fair game to come walking back into our lives.  Even then anybody who wasn't buried/cremated in a cutscene is fair game.  Anybody who wasn't killed and buried/cremated in the same cutscene could come back because they could always say they got up off screen and used a body double.  To hell with invalidating our choices this potentially invalidates 90% of the gameplay.  It's a dark road to wander and few return from it sane.

For the record I'm not upset about Lelianna coming back if killed, but I can understand why people are.  I'm not particularly thrilled because I don't particularly like the character and her presence regardless of the events of DA:O, and her reveal in vanilla DA2 clearly intended to be dramatic, suggests she'll be a major character in the next game.  So not exactly looking forward to more Lelianna, but if I let not liking one or more characters in a game stop me from playing it I'd never play anything ever.

Note: Italics = Massive Over Reaction -> not to be taken seriously.

[Boycott Bioware]

EnerPrime wrote...
To everybody who claims the ashes cannot possible heal Leliana after you add dragon blood:

You guys Kolgrim is a crazy cultist who believes that Andraste went and got reincarnated as a dragon, right? Beacuse taking the crazy man's word as absolute fact is a horrible idea. Look where it got every other person who did so (aka everyone you kill to get to the temple). How the hell would Kolgrim actually know what can and cannot 'defile' the ashes and take away their power? At best he's got a high dragon telling him what to do, at worst it's just the voices in his head.

Maybe the ashes could have healed Leiana beacuse your stunt with the blood did nothing other than make them soggy.

Kolgrim is not crazy in my point of view, i don't see anything crazy about him. He just have Leonidas style of a character, but not crazy. He did calm "Andraste" and "Andraste" let The Warden pass. He have his own belief, just because it is not mainstream doesn't make him wrong. maybe his cult is right, and everyone is wrong. maybe the Guardian is a demon who fool you.

It should be made that the dragon will attack if Kolgrim die but maybe the devs think they don't want to give a shock to the player and so making that dragon sleeping and everyone can pass unharmed unless blowing up Kolgrim horn. Or maybe that horn is the reason why the dragon not attacking, but there is no lore regarding that as far as i know

Why you say Kolgrim is crazy? He's willing to engage in diplomacy showing that he's not crazy. He know what to do, he just can't do it, he also have tactical thinking that the Guardian may let The Warden pass.

Furthermore, i say the one who is crazy are Chantry priests, they don't even know Andraste Temple existence but everyday they talk about Andraste. They even say Urn of Sacred Ashes is a myth but yet they preaching Andraste this and Andraste that to people. The Chanters are even worse, they only say the Chant and nothing else...they hunt down Mages and lock them away in a tower, killing and butchering Mages when they feel the need, separating a child from their family, forcing Mages to face demons, all in the name of Maker and Andraste that they themselves say she's a myth....who's crazy?

Edit : I think not everyone realize that the Temple is unfriendly one, all those spirits are so eager to kill anyone who enter, the Gauntlet is BS, they just want to kill everyone...what sort of a religious Temple that want to kill the one who visit? The Ash is not Andraste Ash, it just a deception

Modifié par Qistina, 06 juillet 2013 - 03:49 .

[Steppenwolf]

addiction21 wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...


Lelianna was dead.  Now she isn't.  It's a retcon to me.

-Polaris

Words don't change their meaning because you are unhappy.

No head=dead. I cut Leliana's head off in one of my playthroughs and yet she was alive and intact in DA][ when I imported that save. You can't change the definition of dead just because you want to side with BioWare. Or the definition of retcon. She was dead, then without explanation she was alive. Until they explain it it is a retcon.

[BlueMagitek]

Or, you could make the reasonable assumption that the constitution granting magical dragon's blood didn't really ruin the Ashes, which you left her corpse next to. Inside the giant Lyrium filled mountain. Which is full of all sorts of magical or divine things.

[Steppenwolf]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Or, you could make the reasonable assumption that the constitution granting magical dragon's blood didn't really ruin the Ashes, which you left her corpse next to. Inside the giant Lyrium filled mountain. Which is full of all sorts of magical or divine things.

Why should we have to write the stories of the games BioWare makes?

[IanPolaris]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Or, you could make the reasonable assumption that the constitution granting magical dragon's blood didn't really ruin the Ashes, which you left her corpse next to. Inside the giant Lyrium filled mountain. Which is full of all sorts of magical or divine things.

If I am forced to make up my own headcanon to make the continuity work then it was a retcon.

-Polaris

[BlueMagitek]

BasilKarlo wrote...

Why should we have to write the stories of the games BioWare makes?

Leliana had no reason to tell Hawke or any of the other party members that she died and came back to life, but if we assume that she wanted to chat about it for some reason, would you be okay with the given solution?

IanPolaris wrote...
If I am forced to make up my own headcanon to make the continuity work then it was a retcon.

-Polaris

A retcon occurs when a previously established fact was changed. 

For example, if you leave Sten, you suspect he's left for dead.  But if he shows up in DA:I, with the explanation that the Chantry Mother re-thought her decision, is that a retcon?  You didn't open the cage, after all.

You killed Leliana, yes.  On the alter of the Sacred Ashes of Andraste, which are known to heal any wound or cure any sickness.  Your defilement of it with Dragon Blood (which boosts your constitution) angers the Guardian, but it doesn't immediately dispel him.

Does the game dispute that you killed Leliana, or does it just not explain why she's alive?

[IanPolaris]

BlueMagitek wrote...

BasilKarlo wrote...

Why should we have to write the stories of the games BioWare makes?

Leliana had no reason to tell Hawke or any of the other party members that she died and came back to life, but if we assume that she wanted to chat about it for some reason, would you be okay with the given solution?

IanPolaris wrote...
If I am forced to make up my own headcanon to make the continuity work then it was a retcon.

-Polaris

A retcon occurs when a previously established fact was changed. 

For example, if you leave Sten, you suspect he's left for dead.  But if he shows up in DA:I, with the explanation that the Chantry Mother re-thought her decision, is that a retcon?  You didn't open the cage, after all.

You killed Leliana, yes.  On the alter of the Sacred Ashes of Andraste, which are known to heal any wound or cure any sickness.  Your defilement of it with Dragon Blood (which boosts your constitution) angers the Guardian, but it doesn't immediately dispel him.

Does the game dispute that you killed Leliana, or does it just not explain why she's alive?

You don't see Sten die if you leave him in Lothering.  The codex entry is equally vaque and doesn't actually state for a fact that he died.  The same applies to Lels as well if you left her in Lothering, but if you DID kill her in the Temple, then she is clearly and unambigiously dead by all measures of that game.

Having her come back to life later is a retcon given that it's established lore that ressurection is not possible (no not even for Andraste).

-Polaris

[Enigmatick]

IanPolaris wrote...



Having her come back to life later is a retcon given that it's established lore that ressurection is not possible (no not even for Andraste).

-Polaris

What codex entry states that?

[IanPolaris]

Enigmatick wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...



Having her come back to life later is a retcon given that it's established lore that ressurection is not possible (no not even for Andraste).

-Polaris

What codex entry states that?

Cardinal Rules of Magic

-Polaris

[BlueMagitek]

IanPolaris wrote...

You don't see Sten die if you leave him in Lothering.  The codex entry is equally vaque and doesn't actually state for a fact that he died.  The same applies to Lels as well if you left her in Lothering, but if you DID kill her in the Temple, then she is clearly and unambigiously dead by all measures of that game.

Having her come back to life later is a retcon given that it's established lore that ressurection is not possible (no not even for Andraste).

-Polaris

You leave him in a cage to be killed by Darkspawn.  That was the expectation when I did not take him with me - he is a murderer, after all.  For him to show up would be spitting on the choice I made!  Leliana, on the other hand, is more than capable of moving along with the rest of the refugees and Chantry members who are trying to help the commoners move before the darkspawn approach.

Ashes don't normally get healing properties either, but that's what a mountain of lyrium will do for you.
So, being killed on the ashes of Andraste, the most powerful healing item in Thedas, covered in Con boosting dragon's blood, does not cast a shadow of doubt upon death's grasp.

Oh, and considering you are more than willing to accept that the rules of magic might be "fudged" for an old hermit who is in a magical forest on the nature of teleportation, which I'm told is also impossible, I'm just going to lol.

[Iakus]

IanPolaris wrote...
I think the evidence is fairly clear.  Lelianna could be killed in DAO, and the people that wrote/developed Thedas wanted her around in DA2 and beyond and so changed their minds, but don't want to admit the retcon.  At least that's how I am seeing it.

-Polaris

This is indeed possible.  And personally i don'[t care for retroactive continuity either.  It's pretty rare that a retcon works out well.

However, we do not know how it is that she can survive.  It may very well be an explanation that makes perfect sense. Or it could be pulled out of some orrifice or other.  We'll just have to wait and see.

[IanPolaris]

BlueMagitek wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

You don't see Sten die if you leave him in Lothering.  The codex entry is equally vaque and doesn't actually state for a fact that he died.  The same applies to Lels as well if you left her in Lothering, but if you DID kill her in the Temple, then she is clearly and unambigiously dead by all measures of that game.

Having her come back to life later is a retcon given that it's established lore that ressurection is not possible (no not even for Andraste).

-Polaris

You leave him in a cage to be killed by Darkspawn.  That was the expectation when I did not take him with me - he is a murderer, after all.  For him to show up would be spitting on the choice I made!  Leliana, on the other hand, is more than capable of moving along with the rest of the refugees and Chantry members who are trying to help the commoners move before the darkspawn approach.

Ashes don't normally get healing properties either, but that's what a mountain of lyrium will do for you.
So, being killed on the ashes of Andraste, the most powerful healing item in Thedas, covered in Con boosting dragon's blood, does not cast a shadow of doubt upon death's grasp.

Oh, and considering you are more than willing to accept that the rules of magic might be "fudged" for an old hermit who is in a magical forest on the nature of teleportation, which I'm told is also impossible, I'm just going to lol.

Nope.  Doesn't work.  The point is that those people (including Sten) that you leave behind in Lothering in the Codex Entries ARE NOT definatively labeled dead.  The codex entry implies they are but it's vague and doesn't actually say they were killed.  When you kill Lels, it's different.  She is dead.  You see (and can loot) her body.  The codex entry regarding her CLEARLY shows she's dead and you can watch her corpse decompose into a skeleton before your eyes.

Also there are lots of old bodies near the Urn.  The ashes sure didn't do much for them now did they (and since you've also killed the guardian and his henchmen in this case, there's no one to bring Lels back to life).

In the case of the Hermit, we see an example of an old man who is unique and we are told is very powerful and strange.  It's not out of line that he can fudge a few of the boundaries as a singular case (and that's all he does...he fudges them).  That's far different from a blatent retcon.  I wouldn't be this strident about it except Bioware refuses to call it for what it is...and frankly and IMHO rather arrogantly at that.

-Polaris

[BlueMagitek]

IanPolaris wrote...
Nope.  Doesn't work.  The point is that those people (including Sten) that you leave behind in Lothering in the Codex Entries ARE NOT definatively labeled dead.  The codex entry implies they are but it's vague and doesn't actually say they were killed.  When you kill Lels, it's different.  She is dead.  You see (and can loot) her body.  The codex entry regarding her CLEARLY shows she's dead and you can watch her corpse decompose into a skeleton before your eyes.

Also there are lots of old bodies near the Urn.  The ashes sure didn't do much for them now did they (and since you've also killed the guardian and his henchmen in this case, there's no one to bring Lels back to life).

In the case of the Hermit, we see an example of an old man who is unique and we are told is very powerful and strange.  It's not out of line that he can fudge a few of the boundaries as a singular case (and that's all he does...he fudges them).  That's far different from a blatent retcon.  I wouldn't be this strident about it except Bioware refuses to call it for what it is...and frankly and IMHO rather arrogantly at that.

-Polaris

Murdered my playthrough in the face!  I was told by everyone there, even Morrigan, that Sten was going to be Darkspawn chow!  Stop imposing a reasonable argument upon what could have happened!  Haha, you realize that corpses turning to skeletons and pouches is a gameplay element, right?  Or do we assume decomposition happens next to immediately in Dragon Age?  Where are all the skeletons and zombies coming from?  Goodness, those demons work fast getting in there!

The corpses were, from my memory at the bottom of the stairs, not upon the ashes.

In the case of Leliana, we see an example of a woman who is unique and we are told is spoken to by the Maker and seen as strange.  It's not out of line that she can be resurrected outside the boundaries as a singular case (and that's all she really does, considering that spirits do exist in Thedas) with her physical body being healed by ashes and her spirit returning from the Maker's side.  Doing that with the help of a mountain of Lyrium, magical Ashes and Dragon's blood is far different than breaking the established rules of magic.

Now, if Leliana was canonically with the Warden's party (which she isn't), if the Dark Ritual or lack of it is made canon (which it hasn't), if Harrowmont is made King, Zathy still walking around just fine, Connor being possessed by the same demon after it was destroyed - that's a retcon.  An unexplained reappearance?  Not so much.

[BlueMagitek]

scyphozoa wrote...

I don't mind the idea that the consequences of Leliana being struck down "aren't what I expected" - but the ramification of that is basically this, at the end of DA2, when given the option to kill Anders the thought honestly, seriously crossed through my mind "Will killing Anders actually matter? Will he stay dead or just be resurrected if the writers want him?" I didn't think that way about killing lesser characters, small bit characters are pretty disposable, but I am pretty sure, anytime I am faced with the option of killing a main character, I am always going to have my doubts if they are going to stay dead upon (the act and appearance of) killing them.

I imagine we'll have a rotting Vengence running around if Anders is dead.  I do hope that their personality is significantly different.

[IanPolaris]

BlueMagitek wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
Nope.  Doesn't work.  The point is that those people (including Sten) that you leave behind in Lothering in the Codex Entries ARE NOT definatively labeled dead.  The codex entry implies they are but it's vague and doesn't actually say they were killed.  When you kill Lels, it's different.  She is dead.  You see (and can loot) her body.  The codex entry regarding her CLEARLY shows she's dead and you can watch her corpse decompose into a skeleton before your eyes.

Also there are lots of old bodies near the Urn.  The ashes sure didn't do much for them now did they (and since you've also killed the guardian and his henchmen in this case, there's no one to bring Lels back to life).

In the case of the Hermit, we see an example of an old man who is unique and we are told is very powerful and strange.  It's not out of line that he can fudge a few of the boundaries as a singular case (and that's all he does...he fudges them).  That's far different from a blatent retcon.  I wouldn't be this strident about it except Bioware refuses to call it for what it is...and frankly and IMHO rather arrogantly at that.

-Polaris

Murdered my playthrough in the face!  I was told by everyone there, even Morrigan, that Sten was going to be Darkspawn chow!  Stop imposing a reasonable argument upon what could have happened!  Haha, you realize that corpses turning to skeletons and pouches is a gameplay element, right?  Or do we assume decomposition happens next to immediately in Dragon Age?  Where are all the skeletons and zombies coming from?  Goodness, those demons work fast getting in there!

Yes but the Codex entry clearly shows that Sten's fate is ambigious.  The same applies to Lels if you left her in Lothering.  You can not say with certainty that he (or she in this case) did in fact die and the game makes that clear to you.  By contrast if you kill Lelianna the game makes it very clear that she is dead, door-nail, pushing daisies, whathaveyou.

The corpses were, from my memory at the bottom of the stairs, not upon the ashes.

It's very easy for Lel's corpse to be at the bottom of the stairs as well.

In the case of Leliana, we see an example of a woman who is unique and we are told is spoken to by the Maker and seen as strange.  It's not out of line that she can be resurrected outside the boundaries as a singular case (and that's all she really does, considering that spirits do exist in Thedas) with her physical body being healed by ashes and her spirit returning from the Maker's side.  Doing that with the help of a mountain of Lyrium, magical Ashes and Dragon's blood is far different than breaking the established rules of magic.

We see not one scintilla of evidence that there is anything special or supernatural about Lelianna at all.  In fact the Guardian calls her out for her misplaced pride in this regard.  While we are also told the place is magical, we are NOT told that the veil to the fade is thin here (and yes a mage warden can tell....see Soldier's Peak).  In short this is a blatent and obvious retcon.

If you choose to openly kill a character, then that character should stay dead unless you are given a VERY good reason or expectation that they won't be.  In the case of Flemeth this is done both in DAO and in DA2.

Now, if Leliana was canonically with the Warden's party (which she isn't), if the Dark Ritual or lack of it is made canon (which it hasn't), if Harrowmont is made King, Zathy still walking around just fine, Connor being possessed by the same demon after it was destroyed - that's a retcon.  An unexplained reappearance?  Not so much.

The canon is supposed to reflect the choices you made.  If those choices are overwritten by the Devs, then it;'s a retcon.

-Polaris

[Iakus]

scyphozoa wrote...

I don't mind the idea that the consequences of Leliana being struck down "aren't what I expected" - but the ramification of that is basically this, at the end of DA2, when given the option to kill Anders, the thought honestly crossed through my mind "Will killing Anders actually matter? Will he stay dead or just be resurrected if the writers want him?" I didn't think that way about killing lesser characters, small bit characters are pretty disposable, but I am pretty sure, anytime I am faced with the option of killing a main character, I am always going to have my doubts if they are going to stay dead upon (the act and appearance of) killing them.

I can defnitely see this as a concern.  However, choosing to kill Anders is a definite player choice, and one that (I believe) devs have stated will carry through:  If you executed Anders in DA2, he will be dead in DAI

Now Justice, otoh...

[IanPolaris]

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

I find the number of people defending this as a non retcon to be really surprising. If you don't like the word retcon I'll exchange it for the phrase "complete dev 180 on a certain outcome involving Leliana." What evidence in DAO or anywhere is there that the devs planned for it to be possible for Leliana to survivie aside from her showing up unannounced and alive in DA2? Are the devs even arguing that they didn't in fact change their mind?

If I am readinmg DG's commentary correctly he in particular seems to want to deny that there was any 'retcon' or even change in mind over what happened to Lelianna.  However, my memory of what Bioware said and did during that period (immediately post DAO and DAA) suggests that Lelianna's popularity took Bioware by suprise (much like Tali's did in Mass Effect) and thus they wanted to write her back in....and did a clumsy job of it IMHO.

-Polaris

[Hazegurl]

If it was her popularity that brought her back then the devs should have at least taken it under consideration that people who imported with her dead probably didn't like her or cared enough about her to want her back. In that case they should have just put in a stand in character for the role that Leliana was to fill in.