660 réponses à ce sujet

[nightscrawl]

IanPolaris wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

This statement is fundamentally and unequivocally inaccurate.  FWIW.

Not really.  I wrote that in a humorous vein, but I wasn't wrong.  Given the relative strengths of Lelianna (who is notoriously squishy) vs the Warden (of any type), choosing to attack the warden IS essentially suicide and Lelianna knows it (and it's why you can intimidate her into not attacking you).

It's akin to 'suicide by cop'.

-Polaris

No, it's not. Calling it suicide implies that she WANTS to die. Sure, as you describe, it might be totally stupid on her part to attack the Warden, but she is not doing it because she wants to die.

Also, "suicide by cop" is just that, doing something that you know will force the police to kill you (i.e. raising a gun in a threatening manner). If the police are called out to a scene with a dangerous dog and are going to shoot the dog because it is attacking someone, and the owner of the dog attacks the police to save their dog, the dog owner is not committing suicide, they are being stupid.

[nightscrawl]

Twisted Path wrote...

I wonder what percentage of players actually killed Leiliana. I know I never did and I would guess it's actually a vanishingly small number of people. Despite the impression you might get from the internet it seems like most people play these sorts of games as a good guy.

I didn't either. The actual number doesn't matter, it's the principle of the issue. Who is to say they might not do something similar with an aspect of the game you did experience?

As I said, it's not a huge deal for me, it doesn't affect my plays. However, I can see why others are irritated, and I do think it could have been handled a bit better. Ultimately, I don't think it's about whether Leliana specifically should be alive or dead, but about how intra and inter game decisions are handled. I totally get that the mindset is, "work on the current game, and if we are green-lit for a sequel, great, if not we'll move onto some other IP," particularly with DA that is not designed as a trilogy like ME. I don't think that every potentiality should be taken into account -- some decisions don't matter that much -- but it does seem like certain things might benefit from planning ahead with the hope that there might be future games. The whole Morrigan thing is one such example.

I do question the idea of bringing people back at all. As a DAO player I think it's GREAT. But, would Anders in DA2 be different if his name were Aaron, even if he had the exact same story? Did it have to be Anders specifically, and not a new person? People who came into Dragon Age with DA2 didn't know Anders, so the background had no significance for them.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Lelianna was THOUGH TO BE dead.  Now she isn't.  It's a retcon to me.

Fixed it for ya.

Also, gameplay balance is irrelevant to the lore. Leliana isn't "notoriously squishy" and the Warden isn't "notoriously tough".
As far as the setting is concenrned, the Warden dies just as easily from a backstab as any random mook. Hence, with Warden being a normal squishy human, there is no real reason for Leliana to think she couldn't kill him.


Also:




Also, many codex entires are written from the Wardens POV, and Codex entreis are NOT infalible or immutable.
So when the Codex setz "The warden fought and killed Leleiana" is basicly mimics the wardens diary.
It's what the Warden THOUGHT happened.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 06 juillet 2013 - 10:35 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

DPSSOC wrote...
 Lelianna was as dead as everyone else we fight in the game, we reduced her hit points to 0 and she fell down, that's always been enough.  People expected her to be dead, but she's not, this upsets them.

Incorrect. That was not always enough.

There are multiple enemies that you fight and when they reached 0 HP, they are still alive and fine in the next cutscene.

[Lotion Soronarr]

BasilKarlo wrote...
No head=dead. I cut Leliana's head off in one of my playthroughs and yet she was alive and intact in DA][ when I imported that save. You can't change the definition of dead just because you want to side with BioWare. Or the definition of retcon. She was dead, then without explanation she was alive. Until they explain it it is a retcon.

You didn't.

A combat animation is insignificant and has no bearing on the plot/story/setting.

[wright1978]

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

I find the number of people defending this as a non retcon to be really surprising. If you don't like the word retcon I'll exchange it for the phrase "complete dev 180 on a certain outcome involving Leliana." What evidence in DAO or anywhere is there that the devs planned for it to be possible for Leliana to survivie aside from her showing up unannounced and alive in DA2? Are the devs even arguing that they didn't in fact change their mind?

I certainly don't feel it is ideal but in reality it little different to multiple TV series where characters die only to be brought back by some miracolous event when writers think that that character would be great in a later story. As long as they acknowledge the previous import choice i have little issue with it.

[Rawgrim]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Or, you could make the reasonable assumption that the constitution granting magical dragon's blood didn't really ruin the Ashes, which you left her corpse next to. Inside the giant Lyrium filled mountain. Which is full of all sorts of magical or divine things.

There are other corpses around the ashes too. If its the lyrium doing the ressurection, it wouldn`t distinguish between who it was it brought back from the dead. Also. If Leliana kills you next to the ashes you don`t come back to life either. Its just Leliana. So the lyrium in the mountain argument doesn`t hold water.

[Rawgrim]

addiction21 wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

I think the evidence is fairly clear.  Lelianna could be killed in DAO, and the people that wrote/developed Thedas wanted her around in DA2 and beyond and so changed their minds, but don't want to admit the retcon.  At least that's how I am seeing it.

-Polaris

If they wanted her in DA2 and beyond how could they have changed their minds? From the first meeting and conversations you have with her there is something unusual about her.

And no its not a retcon. It is not a retcon. Repeat it with me. It is not a retcon. Just because your course of action did not turn out how you wanted to (and retreating to flawed sources of information like the codex and "she looked dead because health bar") does not make it a retcon.

King Calian showing up and saying "oh that ogre thing never happened" is a retcon. On of many possible outcomes for a charcter not panning out how you thought it would IS NOT A RETCON.

Throwing retcon around does not make something bad or lend weight to your point. Everyone stop doing it.

P.S.
The same goes for Plot Hole

So what you are saying is that the codex should be ignored fom now on, since everything in it could be false. And wacking someone with a sword til their health\\life goes away isn`t an indicator of you having killed him\\her at all.

[KiwiQuiche]

wright1978 wrote...

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

I find the number of people defending this as a non retcon to be really surprising. If you don't like the word retcon I'll exchange it for the phrase "complete dev 180 on a certain outcome involving Leliana." What evidence in DAO or anywhere is there that the devs planned for it to be possible for Leliana to survivie aside from her showing up unannounced and alive in DA2? Are the devs even arguing that they didn't in fact change their mind?

I certainly don't feel it is ideal but in reality it little different to multiple TV series where characters die only to be brought back by some miracolous event when writers think that that character would be great in a later story. As long as they acknowledge the previous import choice i have little issue with it.

At least with shows like Supernatural they have a legit "God did it" excuse since God is canon in their universe, whereas in Thedas the Maker is vague and not proven to exist or interact with people, hence why so many call it a retcon/asspull for Leliana's sudden lack of being dead with no explaintion besides the devs saying "durr familiar faces" in response.

That and I don't see how Leliana would be great in the story later on. I hated her VA so much, especially since she was a bard and wouldn't shut up.

[Zazzerka]

KiwiQuiche wrote...

I hated her VA so much, especially since she was a bard and wouldn't shut up.

Man, really? I thought that was the cutest **** ever.

Modifié par Zazzerka, 06 juillet 2013 - 11:54 .

[KiwiQuiche]

Zazzerka wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

I hated her VA so much, especially since she was a bard and wouldn't shut up.

Man, really? I thought that was the cutest **** ever.

Ugh I couldn't stand it. It was like she couldn't pronouce her words properly (and I'm not meaning the accent) which I found really damn annoying for a so-called Bard.

[DarkKnightHolmes]

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Zazzerka wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

I hated her VA so much, especially since she was a bard and wouldn't shut up.

Man, really? I thought that was the cutest **** ever.

Ugh I couldn't stand it. It was like she couldn't pronouce her words properly (and I'm not meaning the accent) which I found really damn annoying for a so-called Bard.

Maybe Leliana purposely talks like that to fool you!

[nightscrawl]

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Ugh I couldn't stand it. It was like she couldn't pronouce her words properly (and I'm not meaning the accent) which I found really damn annoying for a so-called Bard.

Can you give an example? I normally notice those things, and people not enunciating clearly is a pet peeve of mine. I didn't think she was bad though.


As an aside: we can swear on the forums now? Did they mess with the profanity filters or something? o_O

Anyway, back to dead, er, living people.

Modifié par nightscrawl, 06 juillet 2013 - 12:12 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Rawgrim wrote...
So what you are saying is that the codex should be ignored fom now on, since everything in it could be false. And wacking someone with a sword til their healthlife goes away isn`t an indicator of you having killed himher at all.

Usually it is, but it's ntoa 100%

After all, I whacked Zevran with a sword till his HP dropped to 0 and he still wasn't dead.
And when Sten challenged me, I whacked him too.
And Arl Howe.
And many others.


The only conclusive significance of HP reaching 0 is that the opponent was DEFEATED. Not killed.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 06 juillet 2013 - 12:21 .

[KiwiQuiche]

DarkKnightHolmes wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Zazzerka wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

I hated her VA so much, especially since she was a bard and wouldn't shut up.

Man, really? I thought that was the cutest **** ever.

Ugh I couldn't stand it. It was like she couldn't pronouce her words properly (and I'm not meaning the accent) which I found really damn annoying for a so-called Bard.

Maybe Leliana purposely talks like that to fool you!

Yeah, like her legit story of the Maker, which even the Ashes Guardian calls her out on.

nightscrawl wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Ugh
I couldn't stand it. It was like she couldn't pronouce her words
properly (and I'm not meaning the accent) which I found really damn
annoying for a so-called Bard.

Can you give an example? I
normally notice those things, and people not enunciating clearly is a
pet peeve of mine. I didn't think she was bad though.


As an aside: we can swear on the forums now? Did they mess with the profanity filters or something? o_O

Anyway, back to dead, er, living people.

Whenever she talks? And I'm not talking about that weird latin song she whips out in camp that has everyone standing around awkwardly.

No, we can't. Zazz will get a warning for swearing like that, I'll bet.

Dead. So she's a zombie and apparently a few of my dead Wardens somehow managed to vanish as well lol

[Paul E Dangerously]

If we're going to start having comic book villain death logic - "If you don't see the body they're not dead" - as a way to explain away player decisions, this is going to get old fast. What next, you-know-who the terrorist from the end of DA2 gets back up after the possible murder knifing?

[nightscrawl]

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Whenever she talks? And I'm not talking about that weird latin song she whips out in camp that has everyone standing around awkwardly.

That's elvish.

[Nerevar-as]

Sopa de Gato wrote...

If we're going to start having comic book villain death logic - "If you don't see the body they're not dead" - as a way to explain away player decisions, this is going to get old fast. What next, you-know-who the terrorist from the end of DA2 gets back up after the possible murder knifing?

We already have character development and lore thrown away in order to advance the plots that wouldn´t happen otherwise, so comic book logic is already in effect. They do claim that guy is going to stay dead, though.

[KiwiQuiche]

nightscrawl wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Whenever she talks? And I'm not talking about that weird latin song she whips out in camp that has everyone standing around awkwardly.

That's elvish.

It was awkward as hell, that's what it is.

[Nightdragon8]

KiwiQuiche wrote...

nightscrawl wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Whenever she talks? And I'm not talking about that weird latin song she whips out in camp that has everyone standing around awkwardly.

That's elvish.

It was awkward as hell, that's what it is.

.... sounds more like just Leliana hate, so you are upset that you didn't get to kill her.... *shrugs*

[KiwiQuiche]

Nightdragon8 wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

nightscrawl wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Whenever she talks? And I'm not talking about that weird latin song she whips out in camp that has everyone standing around awkwardly.

That's elvish.

It was awkward as hell, that's what it is.

.... sounds more like just Leliana hate, so you are upset that you didn't get to kill her.... *shrugs*

Sounds like you're making assumptions and acting as if you know my own feelings and opinions on the issue better than myself *shrugs*

[Nightdragon8]

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Nightdragon8 wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

nightscrawl wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Whenever she talks? And I'm not talking about that weird latin song she whips out in camp that has everyone standing around awkwardly.

That's elvish.

It was awkward as hell, that's what it is.

.... sounds more like just Leliana hate, so you are upset that you didn't get to kill her.... *shrugs*

Sounds like you're making assumptions and acting as if you know my own feelings and opinions on the issue better than myself *shrugs*

sorry my idea of "Hate" maybe a bit loose at the moment, but really, this isn't "complain about Leliana" thread its of "Why do some people have a problem with Leliana coming back to life" 

And I think its because they don't like the character, and are partly soicopath's

Or they wanted to see what the world would be like without her,

But I think if they did that, we would have gotten the ME3, ME2 character treatment on everything. I mean really, the ME2 in ME3 where pretty weak, only Garus/Tali got out of that pretty much unscathed, and from what I hear, person doing Tali had to seriously fight to even keep her alive....

[berelinde]

It really is better for everyone if they give characters they want to use later on plot armor. Don't want that character to stay dead? Make them unkillable.

[KiwiQuiche]

Nightdragon8 wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Nightdragon8 wrote...

.... sounds more like just Leliana hate, so you are upset that you didn't get to kill her.... *shrugs*

Sounds like you're making assumptions and acting as if you know my own feelings and opinions on the issue better than myself *shrugs*

sorry my idea of "Hate" maybe a bit loose at the moment, but really, this isn't "complain about Leliana" thread its of "Why do some people have a problem with Leliana coming back to life" 

And I think its because they don't like the character, and are partly soicopath's

Or they wanted to see what the world would be like without her,

But I think if they did that, we would have gotten the ME3, ME2 character treatment on everything. I mean really, the ME2 in ME3 where pretty weak, only Garus/Tali got out of that pretty much unscathed, and from what I hear, person doing Tali had to seriously fight to even keep her alive....

Unfortunetly them bringing back Leliana for no other reason than "durr familar faces" isn't helping. If it was another companion brought back from the dead, no doubt this would be the same reaction, so it's not isolated with her, she's just the one who got hit with it.

No really, with ME2 it's easy to keep everyone alive as long as you actually do it smart. But yeah, let dead characters stay dead. At least ME3 didn't retcon everyone into "lol surviving due to nonsensical events" like what happened with Leliana.

[LobselVith8]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Also, many codex entires are written from the Wardens POV, and Codex entreis are NOT infalible or immutable.
So when the Codex setz "The warden fought and killed Leleiana" is basicly mimics the wardens diary.
It's what the Warden THOUGHT happened. 

You mean Origins established her as dead when The Warden killed her, while Dragon Age II established her as alive even if this confrontation happened? A change of the past narrative by the developers is retroactive continuity.