660 réponses à ce sujet

[garrusfan1]

OP it sounds like you should follow my opinion. if you killed leliana in DAO you deserve to be punished

[TheKomandorShepard]

Because this is a bit annoying if we kill ogrhen in Orgins he comes back in awakening and tells you that you don't kill him just he was unconscious but dialogue option was "kill him".Then Flemeth is alive even if we kill her i know she is justified i can understand that her is alive but only her.Next is anders who should be dead in two cases when you give him to templars and leave him in keep but still he is alive.And now we have Leliana we can kill her but still she is alive and don't give us even cheap explanation.My main character romanced her and don't kill but this is a slap in the face for those who killed her a few more characters and this will be resurrection age.

[Sylvius the Mad]

I don't have a problem with it, as long as the explanation they have for her survival accounts for the possibility that she was decapitated.

[Ollys]

garrusfan1 wrote...

OP it sounds like you should follow my opinion. if you killed leliana in DAO you deserve to be punished

 
I also killed Garrus on suicide mission, because he dont deserve to live.

[The Six Path of Pain]

TexasToast712 wrote...

 Because atheists hate the idea of there being a higher power in a fictional world with the ability to resurrect. Thats my guess anyway.

No,They hate it because people don't want their choices retconned.If someone dies in one of these types of games then they expect them to stay dead in all future games.

[garrusfan1]

Ollys wrote...

garrusfan1 wrote...

OP it sounds like you should follow my opinion. if you killed leliana in DAO you deserve to be punished

 
I also killed Garrus on suicide mission, because he dont deserve to live.

I am foaming at the mouth and putting a curse on you. you don't deserve the honor of seeing garrus yyou are unworthy

[MisanthropePrime]

garrusfan1 wrote...

Ollys wrote...

garrusfan1 wrote...

OP it sounds like you should follow my opinion. if you killed leliana in DAO you deserve to be punished

 
I also killed Garrus on suicide mission, because he dont deserve to live.

I am foaming at the mouth and putting a curse on you. you don't deserve the honor of seeing garrus yyou are unworthy

You ever read (or watch) Stephen King's Misery, dude?

Garrus and Leliana are fictional characters. Relax.

[Mykel54]

Secretlyapotato wrote...

Because it's possible for her to be decapitated when you're killing her, lol

The Maker created a whole world, sure He has a head spare for her favourite heretical sister.

Anyways this extends far beyond dead characters coming back. Bioware also retconned Ander´s fate in awakening because he was so central to DA2, like giving him to the templars, or not recruiting justice. It feels cheap to have these multiple options if later on they are going to be ignored.

The most recent example was Isabela in DA2, when you give her to the Arishok, i can see the writers going:
- Woah stop there, we still want to use her!
- Ok, what do you suggest then, we remove the option of giving her to the Arishok?
- No, that´s removing player agency, just make her steal the book again and escape the qunari too, i´m sure that will go over well

So what was the point of having that choice, if it is invalidated a few seconds later? I actually reloaded the game and picked something else just because that situation annoyed me so much Now i just avoid giving her to the qunari altogether, so the result in the end is that it may as well have been no option to turn her for the qunari, if the consequences for that choice are just handwaved so easily.

What i would have done is something in between: so you want to use Isabela again? Fine, then maybe she endures the ben hassrath indoctrination, and then starts working in the labor camps, until she sees a chance to escape and flees in a merchant ship. She doesn´t steal the book, and the old Arishok dies somewhere else (like battling the Tevinter Imperium), but she escapes and has endured the qunari forced labor and indoctrination. There are some consequences while still allowing to use the character later on.

[azarhal]

Mykel54 wrote...

The most recent example was Isabela in DA2, when you give her to the Arishok, i can see the writers going:
- Woah stop there, we still want to use her!
- Ok, what do you suggest then, we remove the option of giving her to the Arishok?
- No, that´s removing player agency, just make her steal the book again and escape the qunari too, i´m sure that will go over well

So what was the point of having that choice, if it is invalidated a few seconds later?

Varric tell a "rumor" of her escaping the Qunari 2 days after they arrested her (along with the book) at the start of Act 3.

Also, the point is roleplaying, it never was controlling the NPCs and being a gamemaster that decide all the NPCs fate and future adventures. BioWare is the gamemaster and they control everyone fate, include the player character.

[Maria Caliban]

Because it's random and never explained.

One of the rules of magic in that the dead can't be brought back to life. Oh, you can stuff a demon in the corpse and have it run around eating people, but the person is gone.

If you're going to break a rule like that, it's good to offer some explanation.

And it wouldn't be so bad if DA II didn't take a mystery box approach to several things. If I watch an episode of Lost and bunch of strange things aren't explained, I can lie to myself and say that next week things will be clearer.

For a game, I am expected to wait years for an explanation that might never come.

Even better, Mass Effect 3 showed that BioWare will present big mysteries and when you open the box there's a steaming pile of dog poo inside.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 03 juillet 2013 - 09:57 .

[Jonathan Seagull]

Morocco Mole wrote...

WittingEight65 wrote...

Because killing Lealiana doesn't make any sense anyways. I mean, if you don't like the character, just don't recruit her.

You can like a character and still kill them for roleplaying purposes. Or do it on accident and not feel the need to reload.

Yep to both parts.  I actually had one Warden who let Leliana come along essentially because she was attractive and seemed nonthreatening.  And then she stood up to him when he defiled the ashes, and he killed her.  So I agree there.  However...

Because it's sloppy writing with one of the worst handwaves ever (god did it)

We don't actually even know what the "handwave" is at this point, so I'm not sure how its quality can be judged yet.  Leliana alluded to the Maker having bigger plans for her, but that doesn't tell us anything about the actual circumstances, and it's been indicated that there will be further explanation.

Hazegurl wrote...

(snip)
Honestly, I think they just forgot she could be killed and now they have to throw in a reason why they were so careless.

I don't think they forgot, given that there's dialogue variation for it in DA2.  I guess you could think that they forgot when they were planning her DA2 appearance (and then threw in that line later), but I suspect that wasn't the case.

Modifié par Jonathan Seagull, 03 juillet 2013 - 10:00 .

[SamFlagg]

scyphozoa wrote...

jtav wrote...

Because it negates a player choice, albeit one I've never made.

Exactly this. I am never going to kill Leliana, she is one of my favorite characters. But any character who dies, either directly by the choice of the player, or as a result of a player's choice, that aspect of the player's choice has to be accurately upheld. Now, David Gaider has said they will directly address this in the future, so it is not being retconned or ignored, but it will be explained within the lore.

Still, my feeling is that any time the devs choose to contradict a player's choice, they are undermining the entire choice making feature of the games they make and advertise. They have the entire game as their product to create and craft and shape. The devs have their hands on all the levers of power, so when they specifically designate a choice for the player to make, that has to be sacred. The devs get to exert their influence over the entirety of the game, players only get to exert the influence that developers give them. So if developers undermine that player influence too, then it trivializes the entire feature of making choices.

To be fair, the Leliana situation seems sort of like the Rachni Queen scenario in ME3. They didn't want to give up that plot point if people killed a necessary character, so they just shoe-horn in a clone, or a resurrected version to keep it within the lore. 

Grrrr Rachni Queen bothered me as a player, because the entire reason I killed the Rachni Queen in ME1 was I made the calculated estimation that "You're suspectable to the reapers now, it's too big a risk"

AND ME3 PROVED THAT I WAS CORRECT!   (Still annoyed that they didn't make it so that the paragon option there didn't bite you in the ass in ME3)

/ME3 Rant over.

To Leliana, I believe the main problem with it is, they didn't set it up or offer any explanation in DA2.

People do dislike story fiat, but even more than that they dislike story fiat which doesn't even try to put a coat of paint on it.  Heck if Lelianna would've said something along the lines of "The warden?  That bastard left me to die, and it was only due to the still mystical ashes of andraste that I was saved" I think you could've avoided most of your problem.  A single line in DA2 and it's way less of an issue.

Even if that is ultimatelly the explanation they go with it very clearly looks like an "Wow, we totally dropped the ball and we're pasting some retcon in here and hope you won't notice."

(This is coming from someone who would never kill Leliana.)

[Clertar]

It happens... I dumped Minsc and Dynaheir as soon as I met them in BG, and there in BG2 they showed up as my dear companions.
I didn't kill Leliana, but I happily murdered the annoying elf assassin on my final playthrough and he also showed up in DA2... I assumed he just "got better", so can Leliana, especially if she was killed during combat: in the DA games getting an enemy to 0 HP doesn't always mean death.

[LobselVith8]

TexasToast712 wrote...

Because atheists hate the idea of there being a higher power in a fictional world with the ability to resurrect. Thats my guess anyway.

That's one of the most ridiculous statements I've read on BSN. It's an issue of negating player choice.

[BlueMagitek]

Killing characters next to the Holy Grail of Thedas and being surprised when they come back alive.

Cool.

[Sanunes]

I think it was the "nothing ever happened" part of Leliana coming back. If they explained it when we met her or made it part of the Story Varric was telling, there probably would be a lot less hostility towards it happening. Its a lot like the Anderson/Uldina issue I had with Mass Effect 3, Uldina is the representative of Earth even though I always picked Anderson. Of course its done this way because Drew Karpyshyn wrote it that way in his novels, but it could have been done better with a simple throwaway like from Anderson saying he rather be on Earth and actually being able to contribute.

[franciscoamell]

I've seen her body without a head. If had stabbed her in the belly or the back then maaaaaaybe it would be ok if she came back but I freaking cut the girl's head off so it should stay that way. I hope she remembers at least.

[LobselVith8]

Filament wrote...

TexasToast712 wrote...

Because atheists hate the idea of there being a higher power in a video game with the ability to resurrect. Thats my guess anyway.

While the most vocal detractors do seem to be atheists and also wish to be in-game atheists, I really don't think that has anything to do with it. If her resurrection were explicitly divine it might be a different story, but for now the complaint is retcon, retcon, retcon. Also, Leliana is a big fat bigot, etc. 

Most of the detractors are people who don't want their choices overwritten or rectonned. Atheism has nothing to do with it; TexasToast is conflating an entirely different complaint into the one about the players who dislike Leliana being brought back from the dead if their Warden killed her.

[Plaintiff]

I don't like resurrections generally. They are a lame plot device. It's lazy writing. If characters can just "come back" from the dead anytime, then death has no meaning.

People carrying on about how they decapitated her need to get over it. DA:O doesn't flag the specific kill animation that as used on a character. Zevran can be beheaded in DA:O and he'll still be alive five seconds later. It means nothing, quit being pedants.

Personally, I'd prefer it if they were able to explain Leliana's reappearance with something other than resurrection. Maybe the Chantry has an underground cloning facility under Orlais, full of backup Lelianas.

[Plaintiff]

Mykel54 wrote...
So what was the point of having that choice, if it is invalidated a few seconds later? I actually reloaded the game and picked something else just because that situation annoyed me so much Now i just avoid giving her to the qunari altogether, so the result in the end is that it may as well have been no option to turn her for the qunari, if the consequences for that choice are just handwaved so easily.

The choice to turn Isabela over isn't invalidated by having her escape. You still lose her character for the rest of the game. It's a significant consequence.

Wanting to deprive Isabela of her ability to escape isn't roleplaying, it's wanting to play God.

[franciscoamell]

Plaintiff wrote...
People carrying on about how they decapitated her need to get over it. DA:O doesn't flag the specific kill animation that as used on a character. Zevran can be beheaded in DA:O and he'll still be alive five seconds later. It means nothing, quit being pedants.

Sorry about wanting headless people to stay headless. <_<

[MisanthropePrime]

Plaintiff wrote...

I don't like resurrections generally. They are a lame plot device. It's lazy writing. If characters can just "come back" from the dead anytime, then death has no meaning.

People carrying on about how they decapitated her need to get over it. DA:O doesn't flag the specific kill animation that as used on a character. Zevran can be beheaded in DA:O and he'll still be alive five seconds later. It means nothing, quit being pedants.

Personally, I'd prefer it if they were able to explain Leliana's reappearance with something other than resurrection. Maybe the Chantry has an underground cloning facility under Orlais, full of backup Lelianas.

They elected Doctor Venture as the new Divine?

[Gallimatia]

Modifié par Gallimatia, 04 juillet 2013 - 01:18 .

[MadCat221]

Doesn't killing her involve taking her head off? I never did it, but I remember reading that it involves beheading.

Just how do they negate that?