660 réponses à ce sujet

[Sir George Parr]

berelinde wrote...

It really is better for everyone if they give characters they want to use later on plot armor. Don't want that character to stay dead? Make them unkillable.

I would hope to see the PC being allowed some choice in how they deal with these characters who get pampered and coddled with plot armour. As it was annoying that at the end of MoTA you just let that elf go and you couldn't do a damm thing about it.

[KiwiQuiche]

XM-417 wrote...

berelinde wrote...

It really is better for everyone if they give characters they want to use later on plot armor. Don't want that character to stay dead? Make them unkillable.

I would hope to see the PC being allowed some choice in how they deal with these characters who get pampered and coddled with plot armour. As it was annoying that at the end of MoTA you just let that elf go and you couldn't do a damm thing about it.

Nah, apparently that was only annoying because we are all jealous of Tallis, not like she was a back-stabbing qunari spy or anything.


But yeah I agree. They need to be very careful about this sort of thing as it goes bad quickly if handled poorly, as it currently is.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Someone I can't be bothered figuring out wrote...

and I find it odd that the Warden wouldn't make sure she's dead esp 
since so many darkspawn (esp Ogres) can get up again after only seeming
to have taken fatal wounds (see Ogre entry).  I would expect "making
sure" of death would be Grey Warden SOP.

So it's an example that perhaps the Warden isn't as much your character as you've historically convinced yourself to believe?

Careful there, Allan...

This is a counter-argument you shouldn't be using in an RPG, especially not where the PC is concerned. It's also, I think, illogical to imply the Warden would not be checking to see if his/her adversaries are alive or dead, for a number of reasons in Leliana's case:

1. She attacked you;
2. She's an Orlesian bard and well-equipped to try again one day;
3. She was either your friend and you might want to see if she's alive, or she was not  your friend and it'd be smart to make sure she's dead.

Not that devs can't arbitrarily rule "This character is alive", but it's a little insulting (to the PC, if anyone) to suggest that after months of adventuring and killing things...they essentially suck at killing things.  It sets an irksome precedent. Suddenly anyone could be alive if they don't get a scriped death sequence like Meredith or Loghain, and Anders might yet live if you killed him in combat instead of with the 'murder-knife'.


(Note: I'm not saying Leliana can't be alive despite the combat's outcome.)

Modifié par Shadow of Light Dragon, 07 juillet 2013 - 12:16 .

[BlueMagitek]

IanPolaris wrote...

Yes but the Codex entry clearly shows that Sten's fate is ambigious.  The same applies to Lels if you left her in Lothering.  You can not say with certainty that he (or she in this case) did in fact die and the game makes that clear to you.  By contrast if you kill Lelianna the game makes it very clear that she is dead, door-nail, pushing daisies, whathaveyou.

It's very easy for Lel's corpse to be at the bottom of the stairs as well.

We see not one scintilla of evidence that there is anything special or supernatural about Lelianna at all.  In fact the Guardian calls her out for her misplaced pride in this regard.  While we are also told the place is magical, we are NOT told that the veil to the fade is thin here (and yes a mage warden can tell....see Soldier's Peak).  In short this is a blatent and obvious retcon.

If you choose to openly kill a character, then that character should stay dead unless you are given a VERY good reason or expectation that they won't be.  In the case of Flemeth this is done both in DAO and in DA2.

The canon is supposed to reflect the choices you made.  If those choices are overwritten by the Devs, then it;'s a retcon.

-Polaris

As I have been told many times, the Codex is falliable.  I took the key from the Chantry Mother and left, not opening Sten's Cage.  They have no way of getting him out, that I know about.  So he is dead.  Any attempt to bring him back is kicking my choice in the face with a rusty, blunted knife!

She begins her assault from when you first defile the Ashes, so I assume she falls there.  Wherever she falls, she's still the faithful of the Maker, who supposedly had a vision granted by him in a dream, falling in the Ashes/Mountain of Lyrium/Dragon's blood.  And, that third part was missing from the rest of the corpses.

The Guardian tries to cast doubt on everyone.  It is a part of the trial.  That is why you encounter a character from your origin, who challenges your actions.   And since when does the Veil need to be thin for spirits to emerge?  Have you forgotten the Deep Roads?

I'm sure we have a good reason, you're just being annoyed that they didn't tell you it.

Let me know when those other examples I posted start happening; then we can talk about retcons.

Rawgrim wrote...

There are other corpses around the ashes
too. If its the lyrium doing the ressurection, it wouldn`t distinguish
between who it was it brought back from the dead. Also. If Leliana kills
you next to the ashes you don`t come back to life either. Its just
Leliana. So the lyrium in the mountain argument doesn`t hold water.

The other corpses were missing the final ingredient: dragon's blood. :happy:

[Killdren88]

We left Leliana for dead. It is perfectly acceptable that she may have survived. And it has been stated above that codex aren't fully accurate. The choice wasn't made invalid. You made the choice to defile the ashes. That still stands. leliana attacking you was just the outcome. You can't rely on in game mechanics such as deathblows. If you still can't accept these perfectly reasonable bits of information then go ahead and call it a retcon.

[HiroVoid]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Wulfram wrote...
and I find it odd that the Warden wouldn't make sure she's dead esp 
since so many darkspawn (esp Ogres) can get up again after only seeming
to have taken fatal wounds (see Ogre entry).  I would expect "making
sure" of death would be Grey Warden SOP.

So it's an example that perhaps the Warden isn't as much your character as you've historically convinced yourself to believe?

Careful there, Allan...

This is a counter-argument you shouldn't be using in an RPG, especially not where the PC is concerned. It's also, I think, illogical to imply the Warden would not be checking to see if his/her adversaries are alive or dead, for a number of reasons in Leliana's case:

1. She attacked you;
2. She's an Orlesian bard and well-equipped to try again one day;
3. She was either your friend and you might want to see if she's alive, or she was not  your friend and it'd be smart to make sure she's dead.

Not that devs can't arbitrarily rule "This character is alive", but it's a little insulting (to the PC, if anyone) to suggest that after months of adventuring and killing things...they essentially suck at killing things.  It sets an irksome precedent. Suddenly anyone could be alive if they don't get a scriped death sequence like Meredith or Loghain, and Anders might yet live if you killed him in combat instead of with the 'murder-knife'.


(Note: I'm not saying Leliana can't be alive despite the combat's outcome.)

Yikes.  That quote sounds alot worse taken out of everything else said.  That would be an absolutely terrible argument to go down since one of the biggest complaints in Dragon Age 2 was the lack of player agency with Hawke.

[JWvonGoethe]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

I see no reason to exalt cinematics over the rest - Leliana is depicted as clearly as dead as Loghain, Howe, the Warden and the Archdemon, and unlike the archdemon she's not known for body switching. Dev comments are irrelevant to the reality established in the game, aside from as interesting trivia that you might incorporate into head canon.

Outside of the deathblow (if people can't recognize this as an oversight/mistake, then that's their prerogative), is Leliana depicted as clearly as dead as... the PC (or any companions) that are knocked down in combat?

I'm playing Devil's Advocate here since I'm actually pretty satisfied with the developer comments about Leliana and so no longer consider it an issue, but to answer your question..... her body does turn into a pile of bones if you leave her long enough. This never happens to the PC when knocked out in combat.

Obviously bodies don't decay that quickly in reality, so it doesn't make much sense to put a lot of stock in this, but I thought it was only fair to point it out.

Modifié par JWvonGoethe, 06 juillet 2013 - 04:47 .

[Fredvdp]

It doesn't bother me because I never made the choice, but I think the explanation in DA2 is lacking. At least with Anders we got a decent explanation.

Modifié par Fredvdp, 06 juillet 2013 - 04:57 .

[SpazzKidJake]

 How many people actually made it to the ashes, aside from the PC and the few members of his group? 

The ashes did disappeared one day.  Must have happened due to someone highly religious person not wanting them defiled. The only two whom I can think of would be Wynne and Leliana. Wynne could be ruled out for other reasons mentioned in DA2 and her motives. So that leave Leliana. 

But as stated by many,"What if we killed her?" Well you did you"kill" her? I do believe she said that the maker told her to go with you and help you, should you turn on her and "Kill her".Perhaps the maker would save her because her mission is not complete. [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/angel.png[/smilie]

The ashes of andraste; God like healing abilitiy. That is one method of being brought back to life if killed. 

There was also the possiblity of the Feign death: When activated the character falls to the ground and appears dead. Could she have played dead, after all she was a rogue and faked her death before upon being betrayed. 

My personal favorite idea would be that the guardian spirit who was with you or Andraste herself made her way into her body, bringing her back to life in a similar way that Wynne is alive. DA logic folks. Wynne is dead but not "Dead" Think outside the box.  
ZOMBIE SKIN Leliana anyone[smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/tongue.png[/smilie] Jk

Wether you "killed" her or not the Developers... I mean Maker decides her fate.  Lets be honest people it wouldn't be the first time leliana was saved by the maker would it?  

Just wait and see how DA:I plays out. Obviously she has made enough cameo's to confirm she lived, the question shouldn't be "Why was my choice ignored?" but "How did she survive and how pissed is she" she killed one person who betrayed her who is to say your warden isn't  next. 
-Insert Kill bill whistle- [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/whistling.png[/smilie]

Side note I didn't "kill" her, just giving a few ideas and creative explainations as to how she survived. The tactic being used isn't a new mind blowing idea, many people have "Died" in movies or games only to come back crazier then ever.

Modifié par SpazzKidJake, 06 juillet 2013 - 05:36 .

[Wulfram]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Wulfram wrote...
and I find it odd that the Warden wouldn't make sure she's dead esp 
since so many darkspawn (esp Ogres) can get up again after only seeming
to have taken fatal wounds (see Ogre entry).  I would expect "making
sure" of death would be Grey Warden SOP.

So it's an example that perhaps the Warden isn't as much your character as you've historically convinced yourself to believe?

Uh, I didn't write that

[Boycott Bioware]

If Leliana can be alive, then the Warden who doing the Ultimate Sacrifice can be alive too..maybe because of his/her sacrifice The Maker/Creator/Ancestor decide it is not his/her time yet...

[Steppenwolf]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

BasilKarlo wrote...
No head=dead. I cut Leliana's head off in one of my playthroughs and yet she was alive and intact in DA][ when I imported that save. You can't change the definition of dead just because you want to side with BioWare. Or the definition of retcon. She was dead, then without explanation she was alive. Until they explain it it is a retcon.

You didn't.

A combat animation is insignificant and has no bearing on the plot/story/setting.

That's absolutely ridiculous. What a dumb argument to make. Seriously, how does that make sense to you?

[Hazegurl]

scyphozoa wrote...

I don't mind the idea that the consequences of Leliana being struck down "aren't what I expected" - but the ramification of that is basically this, at the end of DA2, when given the option to kill Anders, the thought honestly crossed through my mind "Will killing Anders actually matter? Will he stay dead or just be resurrected if the writers want him?" I didn't think that way about killing lesser characters, small bit characters are pretty disposable, but I am pretty sure, anytime I am faced with the option of killing a main character, I am always going to have my doubts if they are going to stay dead upon (the act and appearance of) killing them.

I agree, I honestly don't care if Leliana is alive or dead. I killed her off in one playthrough and I'm not even sure if that's the import I used when I played DA2 so when I saw her I just figured that I used the import where I didn't kill her. Knowing she is alive no matter what only bohers me because now I question if any death matters in this game. Imagine killing Zevran only for him to pop up fighting against the Crows and flirting with Hawke anyway.  Then the player is told that although the Warden was hyped up as a killing machine, he/she suddenly made a  mistake and just didn't check the corpse properly.

[Lotion Soronarr]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Also, many codex entires are written from the Wardens POV, and Codex entreis are NOT infalible or immutable.
So when the Codex setz "The warden fought and killed Leleiana" is basicly mimics the wardens diary.
It's what the Warden THOUGHT happened. 

You mean Origins established her as dead when The Warden killed her, while Dragon Age II established her as alive even if this confrontation happened? A change of the past narrative by the developers is retroactive continuity.

Origins didn't establish anything other than the Warden defeated her.

It's also, I think, illogical to imply the Warden would not be checking
to see if his/her adversaries are alive or dead, for a number of
reasons in Leliana's case:

1. She attacked you;
2. She's an Orlesian bard and well-equipped to try again one day;
3.
She was either your friend and you might want to see if she's alive, or
she was not  your friend and it'd be smart to make sure she's dead.

Not
that devs can't arbitrarily rule "This character is alive", but it's a
little insulting (to the PC, if anyone) to suggest that after months of
adventuring and killing things...they essentially suck at killing
things.  It sets an irksome precedent. Suddenly anyone could be alive
if they don't get a scriped death sequence like Meredith or Loghain, and
Anders might yet live if you killed him in combat instead of with the
'murder-knife'.

And yet...not everyone checks corpses.
If Leliana has a drug that can stop her heart/breathing for a while, then it stands to reason she could have fooled hte PC.

Of course, one has to realise that FORCING yourcharacter to check each and every corpse is just as insulting as forcing him NOT to. I don't recall a corpse-checking function in the game, so it's out of the players hands anyway.

Either way, complaining that your Warden would have or should have done X is irrelevant. He didn't. And the game doesn't track that.

[Airdeen]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Wulfram wrote...
and I find it odd that the Warden wouldn't make sure she's dead esp 
since so many darkspawn (esp Ogres) can get up again after only seeming
to have taken fatal wounds (see Ogre entry).  I would expect "making
sure" of death would be Grey Warden SOP.

So it's an example that perhaps the Warden isn't as much your character as you've historically convinced yourself to believe?

Careful there, Allan...

This is a counter-argument you shouldn't be using in an RPG, especially not where the PC is concerned. It's also, I think, illogical to imply the Warden would not be checking to see if his/her adversaries are alive or dead, for a number of reasons in Leliana's case:

1. She attacked you;
2. She's an Orlesian bard and well-equipped to try again one day;
3. She was either your friend and you might want to see if she's alive, or she was not  your friend and it'd be smart to make sure she's dead.

Not that devs can't arbitrarily rule "This character is alive", but it's a little insulting (to the PC, if anyone) to suggest that after months of adventuring and killing things...they essentially suck at killing things.  It sets an irksome precedent. Suddenly anyone could be alive if they don't get a scriped death sequence like Meredith or Loghain, and Anders might yet live if you killed him in combat instead of with the 'murder-knife'.


(Note: I'm not saying Leliana can't be alive despite the combat's outcome.)

If those who killed Leliana didn't see the Warden checking if she was really dead on screen, then it would make sense to assume that the Warden didn't check. If you didn't see it happen on screen you cannot automatically assume that it happened.

[Ziggeh]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

Careful there, Allan...

This is a counter-argument you shouldn't be using in an RPG, especially not where the PC is concerned.

 I disagree.

As the writers in a continuining series they, by definition, need to add things. Those things are often going to contradict things that people have added themselves, such as "The warden would definitely have taken a pulse". When this happens, as the player, you cannot say "I own this narrative, you cannot make this addition".

You are free to ignore any such additions, but you have no claim concerning the text.

[Ziggeh]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Origins didn't establish anything other than the Warden defeated her.

She becomes a corpse, the codex says she is dead, and I'm reasonably sure it comes up in some dialogue.

These are flawed enough to retain the possibility that she survived, but it definitely "established" her demise simply by stating it.

[Killdren88]

BasilKarlo wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

BasilKarlo wrote...
No head=dead. I cut Leliana's head off in one of my playthroughs and yet she was alive and intact in DA][ when I imported that save. You can't change the definition of dead just because you want to side with BioWare. Or the definition of retcon. She was dead, then without explanation she was alive. Until they explain it it is a retcon.

You didn't.

A combat animation is insignificant and has no bearing on the plot/story/setting.

That's absolutely ridiculous. What a dumb argument to make. Seriously, how does that make sense to you?

It dose indeed make sense. How do you associate the mechanics of the game to the story. You can decapitate Howe's and he talks to you headless. The thing is you need a glitch or console command for that. Characters vital to the plot aren't many for it. Saying you decapitated leiana is. Like me using my devour ability on my revenant warrior. Sure I devoured her corpse. Dose it make it canon? No it doesn't.

Modifié par Killdren88, 06 juillet 2013 - 07:29 .

[Ziggeh]

BasilKarlo wrote...

That's absolutely ridiculous. What a dumb argument to make. Seriously, how does that make sense to you?

Because it's fairly evident from the number of times you can pull a fatality on someone you chat to in the next cut scene?

[DPSSOC]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...
 Lelianna was as dead as everyone else we fight in the game, we reduced her hit points to 0 and she fell down, that's always been enough.  People expected her to be dead, but she's not, this upsets them.

Incorrect. That was not always enough.

There are multiple enemies that you fight and when they reached 0 HP, they are still alive and fine in the next cutscene.

Good point.  However I will maintain that given how Lelianna's defeat was handled people expected her to be dead, and are thus upset she's not.  Just like some were upset that Cerberus were revealed as an enemy because from the way their ME2 games ended they expected them to be an ally (tense though the alliance might be) against the Reapers.  Keep in mind this is before the game was released after which people shifted to the argument that it just wasn't done particularly well.

Again I'm not upset she didn't stay dead, but I can understand why people would be.

Killdren88 wrote...
The choice wasn't made invalid. You made the choice to defile the ashes. That still stands. leliana attacking you was just the outcome.

This is in my mind the best counter argument to the "our choices don't matter anymore Bioware can just change them" stance.  The choice was never to kill Lelianna, this isn't like Zevran, Loghain, or Anders where the choice is given as "Kill x".  Killing Lelianna might be a player's motivation for defiling the ashes, but that still wasn't the choice they were given to make.  Just like the existence of mage survivors doesn't invalidate the choice to side with the Templars at the end of DA2.

Although it's important to note that Bioware could just change or ignore our choices if they felt like it, many sequels have done this in the past, and I think we should have just a little bit of gratitude for the fact that they don't.  I'm not saying we should fall to our knees, sing their praises, declare ourselves unworthy of being in their presence (I actually think those'd make them remarkably uncomfortable, at least it would me), and not criticize them, but just be a little thankful, even if you do feel some of your choices have been invalidated, for those that haven't.

Killdren88 wrote...
You can't rely on in game mechanics such as deathblows.

 
This is a worse counter argument.  I get what you're saying, and I agree, it's just poor phrasing.  It invites the question of, "Well what game mechanics can we rely on?"  If deathblow animations aren't reliable are death animations at all?  Can we rely on anything that's not a fully scripted cutscene?  Now this isn't my line of reasoning nor is it one that stands up very well, but as we've seen it does come up.  Again I understand and I agree the devs have stated (repeatedly) that deathblow animations exist for flavour and variety and are not factored in to anything (see Howe's conversation after a deathblow animation takes his head off).

[PsychoBlonde]

Most of the errors in the lore thus far have been incredibly minor, by the way. If you want an example of a lore that is INCREDIBLY convoluted and screwed up, look at Elder Scrolls. I mean, seriously, their CANNON SOLUTION for the fact that there are three possible endings to Daggerfall that should have substantially changed events was to invent a gigantic multi-dimensional TIME WARP where all three options somehow OCCURRED SIMULTANEOUSLY and caused a freakish dimensional rip. I am not kidding in the slightest. Elder Scrolls is seriously jacked up. Heck, in the Age of Myth there wasn't even any such thing as linear time in order to accommodate all their crazy lore.

I don't really care about the whole Leliana thing.  What bugs me is that the Dark Ritual decision had a huge buildup in Origins as being some kind of game-changer, but the nature of the save import as it's been done thus far kind of limits them from doing anything particularly big or interesting with that storyline.  Or maybe not.  We'll see.

Modifié par PsychoBlonde, 06 juillet 2013 - 07:50 .

[BlueMagitek]

There are a lot more than 3 endings to Daggerfall, if I remember it right.

Besides, the super powerful artifact just broke time, so every ending happened, most of them cancelled each other out. That's why you have things like a mortal and immortal Lich god running around.

[PsychoBlonde]

BlueMagitek wrote...

There are a lot more than 3 endings to Daggerfall, if I remember it right.

Besides, the super powerful artifact just broke time, so every ending happened, most of them cancelled each other out. That's why you have things like a mortal and immortal Lich god running around.

3 major endings depending on what you decided to do with Numidium.  Lots of minor variations.  Granted, I spent 90% of my time playing that game just randomly running around.

[BlueMagitek]

That's how Daggerfall is meant to be played, though. =D