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Why do some people have a problem with Leliana coming back to life?


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#651
xnode

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Travie wrote...

xnode wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

Since this is another topic that has come up yet again, I shall point to my blog post which addresses it.

Not that it will make much difference to those who just don't like it no matter the reasoning or explanation (or lack thereof), I'm sure-- but there you go.



It may or may not been brought up, but for me (after reading your blog) my gripe on this is your company promotes these "Chained event's" from other previous versions of their games. In your example you are basically saying "yes I am god this is my world and this is my choice", but the point most are trying to make is , "if that's the case, your stories don't fully carry over as you have boasted for years they do" Because in the end, some of our choices might make a difference some now won't, so why does it matter in that aspect anymore? 

Personally if that is truly your stance and the stance of the company you should take out chained event's all together and stop promoting your titles and carry overs and chained events stories. For choices are a whim and are as meaningful as you see fit, not the player. This is not an insult but an observation, when you do this sort of writing you might not be the writer you think you are in my eyes at least. To me , it sounds like the fans know the world better then the creators and writers whom designed the world to begin with, that's pretty sad.


This is actually the best point I've seen in this thread. 

If they are deciding to completely ignore player choice whenever they want it is no longer a selling point of the game. 


Thnx for noticing, yes that is my point. I have NO ISSUE with them changing their story, their game their whatever. My issue is , if this is the way it is, then the selling point of continious story or choices is all bogus and the whole concept of bioware being the rpg makers of choice is way off. Thou, I have to admit, sense the release of the Witcher series Bioware employees could definitly learn allot from them. They know how to make real cool choices in a game.

Mind you , before the redundent arguments of relative choices which are pre-ordained in scripts rears it's ugly head again, I mention Witcher for the point that indeed you never see all the content unless you play it different ways and the carry over details have meaning. The redproject guys might have even taken this idea from Bioware's previous titles and ran with it, but they ran with it really well.

I love both IP's atm to be honest, but this one is slowly eating away at that, the more I read the more I dread a future release. It is almost as if the doctors left and the employees said "Finally, now we can do what WE want". I don't think all the developers have this stance, but man not many post by these guys and gales have gave me really any postive thoughts on DA3. I have seen 2 or 3  things that I like, but allot more I read that I think "Man, what a way to ruin a great IP"... opinions are like a****** we all got one. So that's my opinion on it anyways.

Modifié par xnode, 12 juillet 2013 - 11:45 .


#652
ArenCordial

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Ziggeh wrote...

ArenCordial wrote...

but placing a canon that undo's the effects of a player's decisions in these games where our decisions are supposed to carry over and influence the world does not mesh with how they really advertise us making our mark on the world because it contradicts our own personal story.

It wouldn't if they were doing it constantly, no. Once is not a trend.


No its not a trend, its a precedent.

#653
Rawgrim

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Ziggeh wrote...

ArenCordial wrote...

People like to mock the slippery slope argument because of its commonality but that isn't a refutation that it doesn't bring up a good point and that's you've set up a precedent so where's the line that says 'gone too far.'  

They've gone too far when they're contradicting things that can't be justified by their own rules. This is not a precedent for that.

ArenCordial wrote...

Also where does it say cut scenes > gameplay, like Slyvius said they should work together to create a consistent image of the world not contradict one another. 

Should and does are different things. There are numerous examples of the disconnect.

ArenCordial wrote...

but placing a canon that undo's the effects of a player's decisions in these games where our decisions are supposed to carry over and influence the world does not mesh with how they really advertise us making our mark on the world because it contradicts our own personal story.

It wouldn't if they were doing it constantly, no. Once is not a trend.


Leliana, Zevran (a bug) and Anders all showed up in my playthrough, when they were dead after DA:O. Thats a trend.

#654
ArenCordial

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Rawgrim wrote...

Leliana, Zevran (a bug) and Anders all showed up in my playthrough, when they were dead after DA:O. Thats a trend.


Good point I always forget about Anders and the very epilogue in Awakenings says he's dead, so no random combat animations to blame here.  Just another example of wanting familiar faces so lets change the story.

Modifié par ArenCordial, 13 juillet 2013 - 12:58 .


#655
BlazingSpeed

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Sylvius the Mad wrote...

I don't have a problem with it, as long as the explanation they have for her survival accounts for the possibility that she was decapitated.


I'll go with this one because when my Warden tainted the ashes Alister decapitated Leliana which shocked me to on end.

#656
Ziggeh

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ArenCordial wrote...

No its not a trend, its a precedent.

And I'm sure they'll do similar things again. Because it's their text and the idea that they need such a justification to do so is frankly a little bizarre.

Rawgrim wrote...

Leliana, Zevran (a bug) and Anders all showed up in my playthrough, when they were dead after DA:O. Thats a
trend.

That's actually a very good point.

Leilana's "resurrection" is likely the result of not really being dead, and saved from the brink by some magical means - just like Anders - and she can "die" as a result of player choices in a previous game - just like Anders.

I'm suprised that hasn't come up before. It's the same situation.

Zevran is a different case mind, and if we're being precise two isn't a trend either.

Modifié par Ziggeh, 13 juillet 2013 - 01:05 .


#657
ArenCordial

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BlazingSpeed wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

I don't have a problem with it, as long as the explanation they have for her survival accounts for the possibility that she was decapitated.


I'll go with this one because when my Warden tainted the ashes Alister decapitated Leliana which shocked me to on end.


Its not going to be hard.  They'll probably just say somebody gave her a helping of the sacred ashes. 

Q:  What if the Warden defiled them all but the pinch that was taken

A  .....uh somebody had a pinch hidden somewhere.

Q:  Who?  I doubt the Dragon Cult would help and Genitivi could be dead.

A:  Some else found the location after.

Q:   I thought the Dragon Age setting wasn't supposed to have resurrection magic?

A: ....uh Andrastae is special!

How am I doing ;) 

Ziggeh wrote...

ArenCordial wrote...

No its not a trend, its a precedent.

And I'm sure they'll do similar things again. Because it's their text and the idea that they need such a justification to do so is frankly a little bizarre.


Needs to?  No.   Should they?  Certainly.  Considering how some of these features have be advertised and promoted by the company in the past as selling points.  Hence the criticism they are receiving. 

I get how difficult it is to write/code for reactivity to the point ultimately it would be better for each individual game to be more self contained and to stop trying to show us familiar faces (especially when they should be dead).  I've said before that moving the timeline forward enough and different locations should take of the problem.   It would also allow BW to be incredibly reactive in those self-contained stories.

Modifié par ArenCordial, 13 juillet 2013 - 01:15 .


#658
Rawgrim

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Ziggeh wrote...

ArenCordial wrote...

No its not a trend, its a precedent.

And I'm sure they'll do similar things again. Because it's their text and the idea that they need such a justification to do so is frankly a little bizarre.

Rawgrim wrote...

Leliana, Zevran (a bug) and Anders all showed up in my playthrough, when they were dead after DA:O. Thats a
trend.

That's actually a very good point.

Leilana's "resurrection" is likely the result of not really being dead, and saved from the brink by some magical means - just like Anders - and she can "die" as a result of player choices in a previous game - just like Anders.

I'm suprised that hasn't come up before. It's the same situation.

Zevran is a different case mind, and if we're being precise two isn't a trend either.



The Anders retcon started a war between the chantry and the mages too. Pretty big retcon there.

#659
Guest_Faerunner_*

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Give the player the option to kill a character and bring them back anyway--that's consistency for you.

If BioWare doesn't respect their own canon, why should I?

#660
Fredward

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^ Are you seriously just going from thread to thread, saying something bitter and resentful that makes it sound like Bioware stole all your cookies and then leaving? I'm torn between laughing and slowly backing away and avoiding eye contact.



I'm not really bothered with Leliana coming back. The devs have said they have an explanation for that. It's always bothered me more that in my DAO playthrough Cullen went insane and killed three apprentices but this isn't even mentioned in DA2. Oh well. C'est la vie.

#661
Eveangaline

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ArenCordial wrote...

BlazingSpeed wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

I don't have a problem with it, as long as the explanation they have for her survival accounts for the possibility that she was decapitated.


I'll go with this one because when my Warden tainted the ashes Alister decapitated Leliana which shocked me to on end.


Its not going to be hard.  They'll probably just say somebody gave her a helping of the sacred ashes. 

Q:  What if the Warden defiled them all but the pinch that was taken

A  .....uh somebody had a pinch hidden somewhere.

Q:  Who?  I doubt the Dragon Cult would help and Genitivi could be dead.

A:  Some else found the location after.

Q:   I thought the Dragon Age setting wasn't supposed to have resurrection magic?

A: ....uh Andrastae is special!

How am I doing ;)


Can't she also die in camp? Far away from any ashes?