660 réponses à ce sujet

[Sanunes]

MadCat221 wrote...

Doesn't killing her involve taking her head off? I never did it, but I remember reading that it involves beheading.

Just how do they negate that?

Duct Tape.

[GodWood]

jtav wrote...
Because it negates a player choice.

It negates a player choice all the while never providing an explanation as to how she survived nor does it acknowledge that she was even killed.

WittingEight65 wrote...
Because killing Lealiana doesn't make any sense anyways. I mean, if you don't like the character, just don't recruit her.

I liked Leliana yet my main warden killed her.

Modifié par GodWood, 04 juillet 2013 - 01:50 .

[EnerPrime]

MadCat221 wrote...

Doesn't killing her involve taking her head off? I never did it, but I remember reading that it involves beheading.

Just how do they negate that?

It doesn't canonicly involve taking her head off. Killing Leliana is in-game, player controlled combat. Some people get the random 'beheading' finishing move animation, and can't understand that those animations were never, ever going to be binding canon (see also: The people who behead Zevran before recruiting him)

[Spatchmo]

I am not sure how much foresight the writers use when determining who are important plot characters and who aren't, but they should really just use good old plot armor on the people they want to keep using. A lot of people complain about plot armor too, but it is easier for them to deal with than resurrection.

I also think they should cut back on freedom with major choices in general. It makes it difficult to account for all of them without making them pointless, as was seen in Mass Effect 3, where literally the most game and story effecting choice was who you had to leave behind on Virmire in the original Mass Effect.

[Malanek]

I had a problem with it because it a) lessened integrity of player choice, and seemed like it was done for no particularly good reason as she was completely irrelevant to da2. I would actually have no major problem with a retcon that was done for the sake of the story or something similar like making the old god baby canon. But it has to be worth it and Liliana just doesn't even approach that degree of importance imo.

[Dabrikishaw]

Xilizhra wrote...

scyphozoa wrote...

jtav wrote...

Because it negates a player choice, albeit one I've never made.

Exactly this. I am never going to kill Leliana, she is one of my favorite characters. But any character who dies, either directly by the choice of the player, or as a result of a player's choice, that (all)aspect of the player's choice has to be accurately upheld. Now, David Gaider has said they will directly address this in the future, so it is not being retconned or ignored, but it will be explained within the lore.

Still, my feeling is that any time the devs choose to contradict a player's choice, they are undermining the entire choice making feature of the games they make and advertise. They have the entire game as their product to create and craft and shape. The devs have their hands on all the levers of power, so when they specifically designate a choice for the player to make, that has to be sacred. The devs get to exert their influence over the entirety of the game, players only get to exert the influence that developers give them. So if developers undermine that player influence too, then it trivializes the entire feature of making choices.

To be fair, the Leliana situation seems sort of like the Rachni Queen scenario in ME3. They didn't want to give up that plot point if people killed a necessary character, so they just shoe-horn in a clone, or a resurrected version to keep it within the lore. 

The moral: don't give options to kill important NPCs, especially companions. You might need them later.

[Sylvius the Mad]

EnerPrime wrote...

It doesn't canonicly involve taking her head off. Killing Leliana is in-game, player controlled combat. Some people get the random 'beheading' finishing move animation, and can't understand that those animations were never, ever going to be binding canon (see also: The people who behead Zevran before recruiting him)

Some of us flatly reject the idea of gameplay/story segregation.  And some of us fail to see any meaningful difference between combat animations and cutscene animations.

And yet people ask us to treat cutscene animations as true representations of the events, but dismiss combat animations as meaningless fluff.  How can that completely arbitrary division be justified?

[EnerPrime]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

EnerPrime wrote...

It doesn't canonicly involve taking her head off. Killing Leliana is in-game, player controlled combat. Some people get the random 'beheading' finishing move animation, and can't understand that those animations were never, ever going to be binding canon (see also: The people who behead Zevran before recruiting him)

Some of us flatly reject the idea of gameplay/story segregation.  And some of us fail to see any meaningful difference between combat animations and cutscene animations.

And yet people ask us to treat cutscene animations as true representations of the events, but dismiss combat animations as meaningless fluff.  How can that completely arbitrary division be justified?

Because cutscene animations are scripted, while combat finisher animations are randomly selected and not recorded by the game?

The finisher animations have no impact in Origins itself (again, see Zevran or Arl Howe), why would you ever think they would be immutable canon in future games?

Modifié par EnerPrime, 04 juillet 2013 - 02:13 .

[Plaintiff]

franciscoamell wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...
People carrying on about how they decapitated her need to get over it. DA:O doesn't flag the specific kill animation that as used on a character. Zevran can be beheaded in DA:O and he'll still be alive five seconds later. It means nothing, quit being pedants.

Sorry about wanting headless people to stay headless. <_<

Accept that it is and always was a non-canon animation that occurs at random. And move on.

[Zetheria Tabris]

I've never killed Leliana, but I can understand why the people who did kill her are upset that she was alive and well in their DA2 playthrough. It's completely ignoring player choice. If Bioware thought Leli was going to be a more important character in little installments of the franchise, they should have never given players the option to kill her.

[SpazzKidJake]

I am sure it could be easily explained in some sort of "Saved by the maker" story if she was killed where the cultists got her or andraste herself blah blah blah. It isn't uncommon that we see those "Killed" alive. Makes for a better story and a bit of a rage kill on the players end. Story line wise I believe the Default selection for the game in Dragon age 2 was the game plan for 3 I am assuming. Dark Ritual;OGB,Survived and reconstructing wardens ect. So I can only assume what we see in trailers or discussion is the "Default" topic hopefully they don't shaft us with choices made like ME3 ...

Modifié par SpazzKidJake, 04 juillet 2013 - 02:45 .

[Nightdragon8]

Faust1979 wrote...

I've honestly never did anything to make her turn on her in any of my games but there is a presedence for dead people coming back to life. Like Wynn who was dying or dead and now living on borrowed time. So there is no reason that Leliana couldn't have done the same thing

because, they think chopping her head off is cannon.... and yes thast the reason.

[Nightdragon8]

SpazzKidJake wrote...

I am sure it could be easily explained in some sort of "Saved by the maker" story if she was killed where the cultists got her or andraste herself blah blah blah. It isn't uncommon that we see those "Killed" alive. Makes for a better story and a bit of a rage kill on the players end. Story line wise I believe the Default selection for the game in Dragon age 2 was the game plan for 3 I am assuming. Dark Ritual;OGB,Survived and reconstructing wardens ect. So I can only assume what we see in trailers or discussion is the "Default" topic hopefully they don't shaft us with choices made like ME3 ...

latest F&F movie...

[In Exile]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

I don't have a problem with it, as long as the explanation they have for her survival accounts for the possibility that she was decapitated.

The same thing that let's Zevran tape his head back on after you depitate and then interrogate him after your first meeting.

[BlueMagitek]

Libido?

[Twisted Path]

Leiliana being cut down right next to the sacred magic healing ashes does provide a good hand wave and I'm sure that will be the explanation. It would have probably been better if they had put that in DA2.

"Sister Leiliana? I thought you were dead."

"I was healed by Andraste's Ashes. It's a long story." Bam! Awkwardly hand waved away, over and done with.

I also agree it's a bit pedantic to say that she was beheaded. It's a bit like that guy complaining on Youtube about Commander Shepard always drawing her shotgun from the assault rifle slot on her back in the animations in Mass Effect 3. Or heck: why are swords always floating an inch off people's backs in Thedas? It's a visual glitch that doesn't mesh with the story but isn't really enough to ruin it (much as I'd love to see sheaths.)

[TsaiMeLemoni]

So the decapitation isn't a scripted event? That makes it even easier to see how she survive, especially being so close to the Urn.

[Nightdragon8]

i thought killing Zevern (when you first meet him) was cannon...

[In Exile]

TsaiMeLemoni wrote...

So the decapitation isn't a scripted event? That makes it even easier to see how she survive, especially being so close to the Urn.

Nope. It's pure fluke. 

[Hazegurl]

TexasToast712 wrote...

 Because atheists hate the idea of there being a higher power in a fictional world with the ability to resurrect. Thats my guess anyway.

I don't believe in Gods IRL but I can get down with any deity who actually resurrects the dead. If the Maker was like the Lord of Light from Game of Thrones I'll be the best servant Andraste ever had.

[Jonathan Seagull]

GodWood wrote...

jtav wrote...
Because it negates a player choice.

It negates a player choice all the while never providing an explanation as to how she survived nor does it acknowledge that she was even killed.

Yes, actually, it does.

[Bionuts]

Adding dialogue about it in DA2 would not have been that hard.

Leliana:

"Yeah, I traveled with that b*&%^$. We were even lovers, but she tried to destroy the ashes of blah blah blah ... Make preserved me, andraste, holy mother, abrakadabra and I'm back"

Also, how does she resurrect? The ashes were destroyed. Kolgrim even tells you to get a pinch before you taint the urn.

[Azaron Nightblade]

Plaintiff wrote...

Personally, I'd prefer it if they were able to explain Leliana's reappearance with something other than resurrection. Maybe the Chantry has an underground cloning facility under Orlais, full of backup Lelianas.

Does that mean she'll have uber telekinetic skillz in DA:I? 

Twisted Path wrote...

Leiliana being cut down right next to the sacred magic healing ashes does provide a good hand wave and I'm sure that will be the explanation. It would have probably been better if they had put that in DA2.

"Sister Leiliana? I thought you were dead."

"I was healed by Andraste's Ashes. It's a long story." Bam! Awkwardly hand waved away, over and done with.

In all honesty that would be pretty metagame-y at best.
Leliana would be one of the several thousand faceless casualties of the Blight - Thedas doesn't have any television that broadcasts the adventures of the Warden and his/her brave band of merry misfits. 
So not only would Hawke be unlikely to know about her, I also don't see her volunteering some very personal information to the random stranger she just met.
"Oh, by the way, I was once stupid enough to trust this complete douchebag of a Warden. It ended with me getting whacked on some remote mountaintop. But then I got over it."

Hazegurl wrote...

TexasToast712 wrote...

 Because atheists hate the idea of there being a higher power in a fictional world with the ability to resurrect. Thats my guess anyway.

I don't believe in Gods IRL but I can get down with any deity who actually resurrects the dead. If the Maker was like the Lord of Light from Game of Thrones I'll be the best servant Andraste ever had. [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/lol.png[/smilie]

I imagine people would convert en masse!

Modifié par Azaron Nightblade, 04 juillet 2013 - 05:28 .

[Eternal Phoenix]

Filament wrote...

TexasToast712 wrote...

 Because atheists hate the idea of there being a higher power in a video game with the ability to resurrect. Thats my guess anyway.

While the most vocal detractors do seem to be atheists and also wish to be in-game atheists, I really don't think that has anything to do with it. If her resurrection were explicitly divine it might be a different story, but for now the complaint is retcon, retcon, retcon. Also, Leliana is a big fat bigot, etc. 

As the opposite of them I have a problem with the red hair bard coming back to life too. I have a problem with any ordinary human coming back to life if I killed them off in Origins. I only killed her off twice in six play-throughs mind.

Still the way all these companions from Origins and DA2 are coming back for Inqusitor makes me question Bioware about their whole "oh each game is different with a different protagonist and absolutely not connected" yet each protagonist will have had mutual companions (provided the player recruited them for each).

Why didn't they just go the Mass Effect route and make Dragon Age a whole series about one hero instead of clearly focusing it on these annoying companions such as Morrigan, Leliana and Anders? Well Anders better not be alive in Inquistion if we killed him but knowing Bioware he'll probably turn up even if you killed him with some lame ass excuse such as "I got better" or "magic healed my pierced heart" or some other crap. At least Oghren's story if you "kill" him is believable when he turns up in Awakening. "I woke up two days later named in some bush" seems legit to me considering it's coming from a drunk but for more serious characters? No.

[Lotion Soronarr]

jtav wrote...

Because it negates a player choice, albeit one I've never made.

It doens't.
It negates the EXPECTED OUTCOME of that choice.
The player has a choice of attacking Leliana. That doesn't guarantee he will suceed.
To put it more simply ,some poepel are equating "choice" with "result of choice". Choice is about making a decision, NOT about it pannign out exactly as you predicted.

Some players railed saying they "decapitated her" compeltely ignoring the fact tthat the finishing move is a randomly triggered animation that has no bearing on anything - as plenty of people decapitated Zevran or Howe (or any of the other people you have to defeat before talking to them) and then had a merry chat with them, their heads still attached to their body.

In other words, Lelianas death was never a 100% certanty to begin with, and the circumstances and loaction of her "death" make it rather credible for her to be back.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 04 juillet 2013 - 08:08 .