660 réponses à ce sujet

[Asch Lavigne]

It wasn't even that she was resurrected, if you never recruited her in Origins she was still all "oh my time with the Warden blah, blah, blah" when you met her in 2.

[PinkShoes]

Because it makes no sense.

But hey, plot no jutsu!

[Zetheria Tabris]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

It doens't.
It negates the EXPECTED OUTCOME of that choice.
The player has a choice of attacking Leliana. That doesn't guarantee he will suceed.
To put it more simply ,some poepel are equating "choice" with "result of choice". Choice is about making a decision, NOT about it pannign out exactly as you predicted.

Some players railed saying they "decapitated her" compeltely ignoring the fact tthat the finishing move is a randomly triggered animation that has no bearing on anything - as plenty of people decapitated Zevran or Howe (or any of the other people you have to defeat before talking to them) and then had a merry chat with them, their heads still attached to their body.

The difference between Howe, Zevran and Leliana is that it was scripted that they were "defeated" in battle instead of killed. Then there were cutscenes afterward where you talked to both of them before they died, or in Zevran's case, possibly recruited. With Leliana, you attack her and she falls, just like any other enemy you fight. It's quite logical to assume that she is dead if you choose to kill her. Just because there wasn't a cutscene showing you finishing her off doesn't mean she isn't supposed to be dead.

In other words, Lelianas death was never a 100% certanty to begin with,
and the circumstances and loaction of her "death" make it rather
credible for her to be back.

The ashes were destroyed, defiled in a way that drained it of its holy powers. That's why she attacked you in the first place. It's no longer able to heal/resurrect anyone. The location itself isn't really mystical - just the ashes. There were spirits there, so the Veil is a bit thin, but why would anything want to resurrect Leliana?

The fact was, Bioware obviously didn't intend for Leli to be an important part of later installments, and, when realizing they wanted to use her in the future, horribly retconned her optional death. I'm guessing they thought it was an unpopular decision.

Modifié par Zetheria Tabris, 04 juillet 2013 - 10:43 .

[Rane7685]

Couldnt Morrigan be killed in witch hunt? So if people are upset about leliana shouldnt they be upset about morrigan too?. Doesnt really bother me either way though

[KiwiQuiche]

Because I killed her and she didn't stay dead.

[KiwiQuiche]

Rane7685 wrote...

Couldnt Morrigan be killed in witch hunt? So if people are upset about leliana shouldnt they be upset about morrigan too?. Doesnt really bother me either way though

No, she could only be stabbed and she's still alive when she falls back through the mirror. With Leliana you get in a fight and kill her. It's not open to interpretation like Morrigan, which is why people have a problem with such a blatant retcon.

[MisanthropePrime]

Zetheria Tabris wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

It doens't.
It negates the EXPECTED OUTCOME of that choice.
The player has a choice of attacking Leliana. That doesn't guarantee he will suceed.
To put it more simply ,some poepel are equating "choice" with "result of choice". Choice is about making a decision, NOT about it pannign out exactly as you predicted.

Some players railed saying they "decapitated her" compeltely ignoring the fact tthat the finishing move is a randomly triggered animation that has no bearing on anything - as plenty of people decapitated Zevran or Howe (or any of the other people you have to defeat before talking to them) and then had a merry chat with them, their heads still attached to their body.

The difference between Howe, Zevran and Leliana is that it was scripted that they were "defeated" in battle instead of killed. Then there were cutscenes afterward where you talked to both of them before they died, or in Zevran's case, possibly recruited. With Leliana, you attack her and she falls, just like any other enemy you fight. It's quite logical to assume that she is dead if you choose to kill her. Just because there wasn't a cutscene showing you finishing her off doesn't mean she isn't supposed to be dead.

In other words, Lelianas death was never a 100% certanty to begin with,
and the circumstances and loaction of her "death" make it rather
credible for her to be back.

The ashes were destroyed, defiled in a way that drained it of its holy powers. That's why she attacked you in the first place. It's no longer able to heal/resurrect anyone. The location itself isn't really mystical - just the ashes. There were spirits there, so the Veil is a bit thin, but why would anything want to resurrect Leliana?

The fact was, Bioware obviously didn't intend for Leli to be an important part of later installments, and, when realizing they wanted to use her in the future, horribly retconned her optional death. I'm guessing they thought it was an unpopular decision.

Well, it's entirely possible for a few of the ashes to have been kicked into the air in the ensuing conflict and some may have fallen onto her lifeless body and healed her. Oghren also posits a theory that the ashes get their power from a massive lyrium vein running through the mountain, which would make the room the urn is stored in just as magical/holy as the ashes themselves, so that could have also healed her.


I'm not happy about her coming back, but I do wish it was explained better.

[Ziggeh]

Zetheria Tabris wrote...

The ashes were destroyed, defiled in a way that drained it of its holy powers. That's why she attacked you in the first place. It's no longer able to heal/resurrect anyone. The location itself isn't really mystical - just the ashes. There were spirits there, so the Veil is a bit thin, but why would anything want to resurrect Leliana?

But you have evidence to the contrary: Leilana walking about. 

Modifié par Ziggeh, 04 juillet 2013 - 11:07 .

[KiwiQuiche]

Ziggeh wrote...

Zetheria Tabris wrote...

The ashes were destroyed, defiled in a way that drained it of its holy powers. That's why she attacked you in the first place. It's no longer able to heal/resurrect anyone. The location itself isn't really mystical - just the ashes. There were spirits there, so the Veil is a bit thin, but why would anything want to resurrect Leliana?

But you have evidence to the contrary: Leilana walking about. 

As Asch pointed out, she still thinks she had mad adventures with a Warden who told her to stuff it. Bioware are just fumbling really badly with this.

Modifié par KiwiQuiche, 04 juillet 2013 - 11:11 .

[Brexan]

I got my DA:O protaganist killed at level 3, for some reason Bioware ignored my repeated requests to cancel the rest of the series and completely ignore my choice - I'm still outraged!

But seriously, I wonder if people's expectations are a tad unrealistic. A game with a plethora of different choices, then each subsequent game built to meet their specific preferences just isn't going to happen.

It sometimes feels like people are expecting one game version for anyone who killed Leliana, than another version for everyone who killed Leliana and made Alistair King, then another for when Leliana didn't die, Zevrahn did, Loghain survived and Alistair became a wandering drunkard etc etc

Maybe if the game was only 5 hours long it could be rebuilt to accept every possible combination of choices, but I'd rather they spend development time moving the game and story forward than focussing on the past at the expense of new content.

Modifié par Brexan, 04 juillet 2013 - 12:01 .

[Ziggeh]

KiwiQuiche wrote...

As Asch pointed out, she still thinks she had mad adventures with a Warden who told her to stuff it. Bioware are just fumbling really badly with this.

Firstly, she's a fairly adept liar, but secondly that's a different point, and I'm not saying either works well or even at all. 

What I'm saying is that "the place wasn't magical enough to resurrect people" is a problematic argument if you have someone it's actuallyly resurrected. It's starting with the conclusion rather than looking at the evidence.

Modifié par Ziggeh, 04 juillet 2013 - 11:45 .

[Rane7685]

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Rane7685 wrote...

Couldnt Morrigan be killed in witch hunt? So if people are upset about leliana shouldnt they be upset about morrigan too?. Doesnt really bother me either way though

No, she could only be stabbed and she's still alive when she falls back through the mirror. With Leliana you get in a fight and kill her. It's not open to interpretation like Morrigan, which is why people have a problem with such a blatant retcon.

The other side better have some good hospitals because a stab to the gut (without urgent medical attention) would kill you but regardless if we are talking about the choices being invalidated surely those people who picked the stab Morrigan option intended to kill her. Isnt that choice being invalidated in the same way?

If Morrigan lives because of some spooky magic (or is even reincarnated on the other side of the mirror) how is that any less of an invalidation then uses some forbidden chant of the maker or something to resurrect leliana?

My only point is that IF you are upset about Leliana you should be upset about Morrigan. Personally I liked them both and they never died (I didnt actually play witch hunt though) so lucky me

[KiwiQuiche]

Rane7685 wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Rane7685 wrote...

Couldnt Morrigan be killed in witch hunt? So if people are upset about leliana shouldnt they be upset about morrigan too?. Doesnt really bother me either way though

No, she could only be stabbed and she's still alive when she falls back through the mirror. With Leliana you get in a fight and kill her. It's not open to interpretation like Morrigan, which is why people have a problem with such a blatant retcon.

The other side better have some good hospitals because a stab to the gut (without urgent medical attention) would kill you but regardless if we are talking about the choices being invalidated surely those people who picked the stab Morrigan option intended to kill her. Isnt that choice being invalidated in the same way?

If Morrigan lives because of some spooky magic (or is even reincarnated on the other side of the mirror) how is that any less of an invalidation then uses some forbidden chant of the maker or something to resurrect leliana?

My only point is that IF you are upset about Leliana you should be upset about Morrigan. Personally I liked them both and they never died (I didnt actually play witch hunt though) so lucky me

No, since the option is only *stab Morrigan* not open combat and killing her during it and you don't see her corpse. It's not the same scenario.

Ziggeh wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

As Asch
pointed out, she still thinks she had mad adventures with a Warden who
told her to stuff it. Bioware are just fumbling really badly with
this.

Firstly, she's a fairly adept liar, but secondly that's a different point, and I'm not saying either works well or even at all. 

What
I'm saying is that "the place wasn't magical enough to resurrect
people" is a problematic argument if you have someone it's actuallyly
resurrected. It's starting with the conclusion rather than looking at
the evidence.

She's there regardless, she says the Warden has vanished as well, even if the Warden is dead or she's been killed. Bioware just wanted to cram her in for a call-back and didn't think it through and aren't explaining it.

What?

[Rane7685]

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Rane7685 wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Rane7685 wrote...

Couldnt Morrigan be killed in witch hunt? So if people are upset about leliana shouldnt they be upset about morrigan too?. Doesnt really bother me either way though

No, she could only be stabbed and she's still alive when she falls back through the mirror. With Leliana you get in a fight and kill her. It's not open to interpretation like Morrigan, which is why people have a problem with such a blatant retcon.

The other side better have some good hospitals because a stab to the gut (without urgent medical attention) would kill you but regardless if we are talking about the choices being invalidated surely those people who picked the stab Morrigan option intended to kill her. Isnt that choice being invalidated in the same way?

If Morrigan lives because of some spooky magic (or is even reincarnated on the other side of the mirror) how is that any less of an invalidation then uses some forbidden chant of the maker or something to resurrect leliana?

My only point is that IF you are upset about Leliana you should be upset about Morrigan. Personally I liked them both and they never died (I didnt actually play witch hunt though) so lucky me

No, since the option is only *stab Morrigan* not open combat and killing her during it and you don't see her corpse. It's not the same scenario.

It doesnt actually need to be the same situation to have the same invalidating effect. If you stabbed Morrigan I'm pretty sure those players meant for her to die. Just as I guess most people (provided they saw it coming) were happy to kill Leliana. Same goes for the others that you kill be it in combat or in cutscenes (See Wynne, Anders etc). If any of them came back it would invalidate that choice somewhat but wouldnt necessarily be against the lore (lets face it I've 'died' in combat a lot and been revived (though I admit that is a different thing entirely). But resurrection/ crossing back and forth from the Fade isnt unheard of (See Justice, see the necromancer etc).

All I am saying is that if you decided to stab Morrigan with what is frankly a fatal wound (seriously ask a doctor if you could survive a cutshot to the hilt stab in the gut without medical attenton) if they bring her back it is just as invalidating as Leliana. Again I dont really mind Im not convinced that every action you should make should have consequences. Most people in the real world die long before they make any kind of impact whatsoever. 

Provided the retcon is well written and consistent with the world's lore I am fine with it. I still dont see the difference between a Morrigan resurrection and a Leliana one

[Ziggeh]

KiwiQuiche wrote...

She's there regardless, she says the Warden has vanished as well, even if the Warden is dead or she's been killed. Bioware just wanted to cram her in for a call-back and didn't think it through and aren't explaining it.

What?

Again, not sure what this has to do with my point about evidence.

But again, you're assuming she's telling the truth, or the story that everyone knows about The Hero is the one you played. Despite them going to the trouble of explaining how stories differ from reality right up front.

[KiwiQuiche]

Rane7685 wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

No, since the option is only *stab Morrigan* not open combat and killing her during it and you don't see her corpse. It's not the same scenario.

It doesnt actually need to be the same situation to have the same invalidating effect. If you stabbed Morrigan I'm pretty sure those players meant for her to die. Just as I guess most people (provided they saw it coming) were happy to kill Leliana. Same goes for the others that you kill be it in combat or in cutscenes (See Wynne, Anders etc). If any of them came back it would invalidate that choice somewhat but wouldnt necessarily be against the lore (lets face it I've 'died' in combat a lot and been revived (though I admit that is a different thing entirely). But resurrection/ crossing back and forth from the Fade isnt unheard of (See Justice, see the necromancer etc).

All I am saying is that if you decided to stab Morrigan with what is frankly a fatal wound (seriously ask a doctor if you could survive a cutshot to the hilt stab in the gut without medical attenton) if they bring her back it is just as invalidating as Leliana. Again I dont really mind Im not convinced that every action you should make should have consequences. Most people in the real world die long before they make any kind of impact whatsoever. 

Provided the retcon is well written and consistent with the world's lore I am fine with it. I still dont see the difference between a Morrigan resurrection and a Leliana one

They may have meant for her to die, yet it doesn't show her dead. She falls back in the mirror. She's also a witch with magic, she could heal herself. Leliana isn't a mage, she can't heal.

Justice? He isn't human. Spirits can't get killed, they just go back to fade if they are destroyed in Thedas, not a valid comparison. And necromancer? Who?

You don't see her drop dead. She falls through a mirror, vanishes from sight and still alive. Leliana drops dead and you can kick her corpse. How you think the two scenarios have no difference it beyond me.

[KiwiQuiche]

Ziggeh wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

She's there regardless, she says the Warden has vanished as well, even if the Warden is dead or she's been killed. Bioware just wanted to cram her in for a call-back and didn't think it through and aren't explaining it.

What?

Again, not sure what this has to do with my point about evidence.

But again, you're assuming she's telling the truth, or the story that everyone knows about The Hero is the one you played. Despite them going to the trouble of explaining how stories differ from reality right up front.

I didn't even understand what you were trying to say in your first point.

So she's refering to a Warden from a different universe then?

[wright1978]

Jonathan Seagull wrote...

GodWood wrote...

jtav wrote...
Because it negates a player choice.

It negates a player choice all the while never providing an explanation as to how she survived nor does it acknowledge that she was even killed.

Yes, actually, it does.

Yeah i have no issue with Leilana's return as they reference her supposed death if that choice was made in origins. They are the story crafters and are entitled to resurrect characters at the behests of narrative necessity.

[Sir George Parr]

Asch Lavigne wrote...

It wasn't even that she was resurrected, if you never recruited her in Origins she was still all "oh my time with the Warden blah, blah, blah" when you met her in 2.

Thats something i never considered before. She appears in DA2 completely delusional about something that never happened.

[Ziggeh]

KiwiQuiche wrote...

I didn't even understand what you were trying to say in your first point.

That "she couldn't have been resurrected" is a circular argument.

KiwiQuiche wrote...
So she's refering to a Warden from a different universe then?

The story that Varric tells at the start of DA2; Is that Hawke from a different universe?

[KiwiQuiche]

Ziggeh wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

I didn't even understand what you were trying to say in your first point.

That "she couldn't have been resurrected" is a circular argument.

KiwiQuiche wrote...
So she's refering to a Warden from a different universe then?

The story that Varric tells at the start of DA2; Is that Hawke from a different universe?

That's nearly as good as the "Leliana is the reincarnation of Andraste" arguments.

Oh don't start with that stupid argument.

[Tenshi]

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Ziggeh wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

I didn't even understand what you were trying to say in your first point.

That "she couldn't have been resurrected" is a circular argument.

KiwiQuiche wrote...
So she's refering to a Warden from a different universe then?

The story that Varric tells at the start of DA2; Is that Hawke from a different universe?

That's nearly as good as the "Leliana is the reincarnation of Andraste" arguments.

Oh don't start with that stupid argument.

because they decided she is need for plot. lets face it, humans are lazy and they wont rewrite everything because 0.3% playthroughs killed leliana. just beat it or not. nothing will change anyway. 

Modifié par xxx2emo4Uxxx, 04 juillet 2013 - 12:53 .

[KiwiQuiche]

xxx2emo4Uxxx wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Ziggeh wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

I didn't even understand what you were trying to say in your first point.

That "she couldn't have been resurrected" is a circular argument.

KiwiQuiche wrote...
So she's refering to a Warden from a different universe then?

The story that Varric tells at the start of DA2; Is that Hawke from a different universe?

That's nearly as good as the "Leliana is the reincarnation of Andraste" arguments.

Oh don't start with that stupid argument.

because they decided she is need for plot. lets face it, humans are lazy and they wont rewrite everything because 0.3% playthroughs killed leliana. just beat it or not. nothing will change anyway. 

That statstic isn't low enough.

[Ziggeh]

KiwiQuiche wrote...

That's nearly as good as the "Leliana is the reincarnation of Andraste" arguments.

Oh don't start with that stupid argument.

Do you have evidence that she's not?

[KiwiQuiche]

Ziggeh wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

That's nearly as good as the "Leliana is the reincarnation of Andraste" arguments.

Oh don't start with that stupid argument.

Do you have evidence that she's not?

Now you are just being a troll. How quaint. <_<