660 réponses à ce sujet

[o Ventus]

TexasToast712 wrote...

 Because atheists hate the idea of there being a higher power in a fictional world with the ability to resurrect. Thats my guess anyway.

...

You've got to be f**king kidding me.

[Ziggeh]

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Now you are just being a troll. How quaint. <_<

Now, now, you totally handed that one to me. I was hardly going to turn it down.

I think the idea that the story of the Hero has been altered through it's telling fairly interesting. It's not a great rationale here, but it's a servicable one. The only real argument against it is that you'd rather not believe it, which isn't exactly firm ground either.

[KiwiQuiche]

Ziggeh wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Now you are just being a troll. How quaint. <_<

Now, now, you totally handed that one to me. I was hardly going to turn it down.

I think the idea that the story of the Hero has been altered through it's telling fairly interesting. It's not a great rationale here, but it's a servicable one. The only real argument against it is that you'd rather not believe it, which isn't exactly firm ground either.

Use it by making yourself seem foolish? Seems legit.

And it's not servicable, it just makes DA2 even more useless than normal. Next thing you know there will be IT threads here about it.

[o Ventus]

Ziggeh wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

That's nearly as good as the "Leliana is the reincarnation of Andraste" arguments.

Oh don't start with that stupid argument.

Do you have evidence that she's not?

The implication here being that Leliana is Andraste, simply because there's no hard evidence stating that she isn't?

[Ziggeh]

KiwiQuiche wrote...

And it's not servicable, it just makes DA2 even more useless than normal. 

Why? "Makes it useless" isn't really an argument.

[KiwiQuiche]

Ziggeh wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

And it's not servicable, it just makes DA2 even more useless than normal. 

Why? "Makes it useless" isn't really an argument.

You're the one who used that stupid example in the first place, you explain it.

Modifié par KiwiQuiche, 04 juillet 2013 - 01:32 .

[Ziggeh]

o Ventus wrote...

The implication here being that Leliana is Andraste, simply because there's no hard evidence stating that she isn't?

No, but that it can be.
Not that I wasn't exactly being serious, mind.

[Ziggeh]

KiwiQuiche wrote...

You're the one who used that stupid example in the first place, you explain it.

My point was that her information is only an error if you assume everything said to you is true. Given they make it clear in both games that this is false the position is flawed.

Your counter point was: No it's not, that's stupid. 

I have to admit, you have me in the crushing vice of reason.

[Rane7685]

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Rane7685 wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

No, since the option is only *stab Morrigan* not open combat and killing her during it and you don't see her corpse. It's not the same scenario.

It doesnt actually need to be the same situation to have the same invalidating effect. If you stabbed Morrigan I'm pretty sure those players meant for her to die. Just as I guess most people (provided they saw it coming) were happy to kill Leliana. Same goes for the others that you kill be it in combat or in cutscenes (See Wynne, Anders etc). If any of them came back it would invalidate that choice somewhat but wouldnt necessarily be against the lore (lets face it I've 'died' in combat a lot and been revived (though I admit that is a different thing entirely). But resurrection/ crossing back and forth from the Fade isnt unheard of (See Justice, see the necromancer etc).

All I am saying is that if you decided to stab Morrigan with what is frankly a fatal wound (seriously ask a doctor if you could survive a cutshot to the hilt stab in the gut without medical attenton) if they bring her back it is just as invalidating as Leliana. Again I dont really mind Im not convinced that every action you should make should have consequences. Most people in the real world die long before they make any kind of impact whatsoever. 

Provided the retcon is well written and consistent with the world's lore I am fine with it. I still dont see the difference between a Morrigan resurrection and a Leliana one

They may have meant for her to die, yet it doesn't show her dead. She falls back in the mirror. She's also a witch with magic, she could heal herself. Leliana isn't a mage, she can't heal.

Justice? He isn't human. Spirits can't get killed, they just go back to fade if they are destroyed in Thedas, not a valid comparison. And necromancer? Who?

You don't see her drop dead. She falls through a mirror, vanishes from sight and still alive. Leliana drops dead and you can kick her corpse. How you think the two scenarios have no difference it beyond me.

I didnt say the scenarios werent different. What I am saying is that player choice gets invalidated in both scenarios. In the Morrigan one the player elects to kill Morrigan by stabbing her in the gut in the other scenario you kill Leliana in combat. The point you are trying to make is that the ambiguity surrounding Morrigans death is a material difference. The circumstances of that 'death' I do not find particularly ambiguous considering I have seen mages cop a dagger and die in the same way (See Anders (who incidently specialises in healing)). The difference you seem to be pointing out is the confirmed kill (Leliana). Im saying the chances of Morrigan surviving are so low as to be tantamount to a confrimed kill. 

Even if it was some magical survival why couldnt Leliana be resurrected in some Chantry rite or by another mage or as some walking copse like the necromancer did to your mother. 

There is no real difference in Leliana being brought back to life (however much that might invalidate player agency) and Morrigan miraculously surviving an attempted kill (however much that invalidates player agency).

My initial point was that in both scenarios player agency is invalidated because the player made a choice (to kill either Leliana or Morrigan) and these choices were invalidated. Hence if you are upset about Leliana I was enquiring why people werent also upset about Morrigan

EDIT: As for the Justice comparison all I was trying to suggest was that in the world of Dragon Age that line between life and death is blurry and explored. It wouldnt be so outrageous to see someonecome back to life whether as an abomination, a product of blood magic (see necromancer with your mother), or anything else. The writers will have to come up with something to explain it but if its well written it wont matter

Modifié par Rane7685, 04 juillet 2013 - 01:47 .

[KiwiQuiche]

Ziggeh wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

You're the one who used that stupid example in the first place, you explain it.

My point was that her information is only an error if you assume everything said to you is true. Given they make it clear in both games that this is false the position is flawed.

Your counter point was: No it's not, that's stupid. 

I have to admit, you have me in the crushing vice of reason.

That wasn't my counter point, genius. You made the stupid example in the first place, don't whine when you can't explain it without sounding daft and expect other people to do so for you.

[KiwiQuiche]

Rane7685 wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

They may have meant for her to die, yet it doesn't show her dead. She falls back in the mirror. She's also a witch with magic, she could heal herself. Leliana isn't a mage, she can't heal.

Justice? He isn't human. Spirits can't get killed, they just go back to fade if they are destroyed in Thedas, not a valid comparison. And necromancer? Who?

You don't see her drop dead. She falls through a mirror, vanishes from sight and still alive. Leliana drops dead and you can kick her corpse. How you think the two scenarios have no difference it beyond me.

I didnt say the scenarios werent different. What I am saying is that player choice gets invalidated in both scenarios. In the Morrigan one the player elects to kill Morrigan by stabbing her in the gut in the other scenario you kill Leliana in combat. The point you are trying to make is that the ambiguity surrounding Morrigans death is a material difference. The circumstances of that 'death' I do not find particularly ambiguous considering I have seen mages cop a dagger and die in the same way (See Anders (who incidently specialises in healing)). The difference you seem to be pointing out is the confirmed kill (Leliana). Im saying the chances of Morrigan surviving are so low as to be tantamount to a confrimed kill. 

Even if it was some magical survival why couldnt Leliana be resurrected in some Chantry rite or by another mage or as some walking copse like the necromancer did to your mother. 

There is no real difference in Leliana being brought back to life (however much that might invalidate player agency) and Morrigan miraculously surviving an attempted kill (however much that invalidates player agency).

My initial point was that in both scenarios player agency is invalidated because the player made a choice (to kill either Leliana or Morrigan) and these choices were invalidated. Hence if you are upset about Leliana I was enquiring why people werent also upset about Morrigan

Yet you don't see her dead body but you see Leliana's. That's the difference I'm point out.

Right, some mage who was stalking the Warden so closely he managed to bring Leliana back to life seconds afterwards or random Chantry magic. Because that isn't daft or nonsensical at all.

Yes there is. You don't see Morrigan dead, she's still alive when she falls through the mirror. We don't know what's on the other side or who is there.  With Leliana she drops dead.

Because they are different scenarios, that's why people have different attitudes about it.

[Ziggeh]

KiwiQuiche wrote...

That wasn't my counter point, genius. 

KiwiQuiche wrote...
That's nearly as good as the "Leliana is the reincarnation of Andraste" arguments.

Oh don't start with that stupid argument.

I'm sorry, you were saying?

[Nightdragon8]

ok... basicly, "Murder knife" (which at this point should be considered its own character) didn't "Murder" Morrigan.

The rest of the time we all saw that the person was dead... so there should be 0 doubt that those people are dead. While with Morrigan we didn't see her dead after. But are making the assumtion that sense you stabbed her with the "Murder knife" she should be dead right?

And here is the flaw in the arugment, "You assume" you don't have 100% proof that because you stabbed her with the "Murder knife" that you ended up killing her.

As for Lil... you never stab her with the Murder knife you "defeat her in battle" which someone can live from. (yes yes decaptation animation, not canon matrial)

[Nightdragon8]

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Rane7685 wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

They may have meant for her to die, yet it doesn't show her dead. She falls back in the mirror. She's also a witch with magic, she could heal herself. Leliana isn't a mage, she can't heal.

Justice? He isn't human. Spirits can't get killed, they just go back to fade if they are destroyed in Thedas, not a valid comparison. And necromancer? Who?

You don't see her drop dead. She falls through a mirror, vanishes from sight and still alive. Leliana drops dead and you can kick her corpse. How you think the two scenarios have no difference it beyond me.

I didnt say the scenarios werent different. What I am saying is that player choice gets invalidated in both scenarios. In the Morrigan one the player elects to kill Morrigan by stabbing her in the gut in the other scenario you kill Leliana in combat. The point you are trying to make is that the ambiguity surrounding Morrigans death is a material difference. The circumstances of that 'death' I do not find particularly ambiguous considering I have seen mages cop a dagger and die in the same way (See Anders (who incidently specialises in healing)). The difference you seem to be pointing out is the confirmed kill (Leliana). Im saying the chances of Morrigan surviving are so low as to be tantamount to a confrimed kill. 

Even if it was some magical survival why couldnt Leliana be resurrected in some Chantry rite or by another mage or as some walking copse like the necromancer did to your mother. 

There is no real difference in Leliana being brought back to life (however much that might invalidate player agency) and Morrigan miraculously surviving an attempted kill (however much that invalidates player agency).

My initial point was that in both scenarios player agency is invalidated because the player made a choice (to kill either Leliana or Morrigan) and these choices were invalidated. Hence if you are upset about Leliana I was enquiring why people werent also upset about Morrigan

Yet you don't see her dead body but you see Leliana's. That's the difference I'm point out.

Right, some mage who was stalking the Warden so closely he managed to bring Leliana back to life seconds afterwards or random Chantry magic. Because that isn't daft or nonsensical at all.

Yes there is. You don't see Morrigan dead, she's still alive when she falls through the mirror. We don't know what's on the other side or who is there.  With Leliana she drops dead.

Because they are different scenarios, that's why people have different attitudes about it.

How do you know the guardin didn't reserect her? hmm? how do you know what happend, you left her for dead, did you wait until the body decomposed or made a fire to creamate her? nope you looted her and left. so anything that happened outside of the character being there is only assumtion.

[KiwiQuiche]

Ziggeh wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

That wasn't my counter point, genius. 

KiwiQuiche wrote...
That's nearly as good as the "Leliana is the reincarnation of Andraste" arguments.

Oh don't start with that stupid argument.

I'm sorry, you were saying?

You do realize that's the whole point of stupidity, which you are trying to use as an actual argument? Lol and I was responding to your "It was made up by Varric" argument, genius. Way to ignore the point.

Modifié par KiwiQuiche, 04 juillet 2013 - 02:08 .

[KiwiQuiche]

Nightdragon8 wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...


Yet you don't see her dead body but you see Leliana's. That's the difference I'm point out.

Right, some mage who was stalking the Warden so closely he managed to bring Leliana back to life seconds afterwards or random Chantry magic. Because that isn't daft or nonsensical at all.

Yes there is. You don't see Morrigan dead, she's still alive when she falls through the mirror. We don't know what's on the other side or who is there.  With Leliana she drops dead.

Because they are different scenarios, that's why people have different attitudes about it.

How do you know the guardin didn't reserect her? hmm? how do you know what happend, you left her for dead, did you wait until the body decomposed or made a fire to creamate her? nope you looted her and left. so anything that happened outside of the character being there is only assumtion.

Seriously? You kill the Guardian as well after you destroy the ashes. Ugh, what is with you people? You seriously cannot tell the difference?

[9TailsFox]

Reasons why Leliana alive.
1.She is rogue.
2.She is rogue.
3.She is rogue.
4. Maker did it.
5. Andraste did it.
6. Flemeth did it.
7. Sandal did it.
8. Magical room filed with lyrium can cure any disease.
9. Magic.
10. Other reason.

It's ridiculous them people cry then explained every minor mystery no explained. Like dragon age origin is bad and incomplet we didn't know the darkspawn came we didn't meet 1 darkspawn...

[9TailsFox]

Catroi wrote...

It also contradicts some player belief that the Maker doesnt exist

Your pathetic maker is nothing compared to my power.
http://youtu.be/bkhYO42mM0Q?t=22s

[Nashimura]

Catroi wrote...

It also contradicts some player belief that the Maker doesnt exist

You fact the ash worked should go at least some way to prove his existence

[Rane7685]

Nightdragon8 wrote...

ok... basicly, "Murder knife" (which at this point should be considered its own character) didn't "Murder" Morrigan.

The rest of the time we all saw that the person was dead... so there should be 0 doubt that those people are dead. While with Morrigan we didn't see her dead after. But are making the assumtion that sense you stabbed her with the "Murder knife" she should be dead right?

And here is the flaw in the arugment, "You assume" you don't have 100% proof that because you stabbed her with the "Murder knife" that you ended up killing her.

As for Lil... you never stab her with the Murder knife you "defeat her in battle" which someone can live from. (yes yes decaptation animation, not canon matrial)

Yes there is a difference between possibility and probability but there are some events that are so improbable that you can safely assume it. In fact all science apart from mathematics relies on it (see for example the heisenberg unceratinty principle). Scientists use a confidence interval of 95% (usually). I.e. they only say they have a result when the probability of them bein wrong is less than 5% but it is still possible.

In this case a gut shot with a knife with no means of medicine should lead to the pretty safe assumption that she died. It is actually quite absurd to think she survived it (see occams razor/ law of parsimony). Given the extraordinarily low possibility of surviving 'murder knife' as you put it there really isnt that much of a difference. The difference between the Morrigan/ Leliana deaths is pretty negligible

[Ziggeh]

KiwiQuiche wrote...
You do realize that's the whole point of stupidity, which you are trying to use as an actual argument? Lol and I was responding to your "It was made up by Varric" argument, genius. Way to ignore the point.

Wow.

Ok, so it was a counterpoint to your misunderstanding of my point, and it's still not a good one. Let me walk you through the actual point, it's really not that hard:

Varric made up a story to show you both that he is an unreliable narrator and that the stories of heroes often differ from the reality.

Leilana tells you a story about her time with a hero. 

Now, from the privileged position as the player, privy as we are to the truth about the Warden can determine if this story, a story told to us by someone we know is a trained liar, is true or false. 

Instead, you are saying we should assume, and again, to reiterate, this story we believe is told to us by a liar bceause of a story told us by another liar, is very definitely true. 

[fchopin]

Leliana is alive in my games so there is no problem for me but there are other players who kill her so there lay the problem.

[Angrywolves]

I never killed Leliana. She was often a Li for my wardens. Don't understand why some players enjoy killing their party members.
So I am glad she will be in future DA games, albeit as an npc and not as a party member.

[Bionuts]

Well, not everyone enjoys killing her. However, not everyone meta-games.

I don't like Leliana, anymore, however. I hate the chantry, and her being the ****** hand of the Divine isn't helping her look good in my eyes.