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[TheRealJayDee]

Rane7685 wrote...

My initial point was that in both scenarios player agency is invalidated because the player made a choice (to kill either Leliana or Morrigan) and these choices were invalidated. Hence if you are upset about Leliana I was enquiring why people werent also upset about Morrigan

Seriously, you don't see a difference betwen those scenarios? People who are upset about the Morrigan scene are likely upset because Morrigan's fate was deliberatley left ambiguous, we didn't see her die. It's a completely different situation to give the character the option to attempt something and (potentially) have him fail, and letting him do something with obvious success and later invalidate this successfull action without explanation. Morrigan fell through a misterious mirror that led to who-knows-where, wounded but alive. Leliana was a damn corpse (probably without head).

At least in similar situations in the future there shouldn't be an option for things like the beheading animation, because these really really hurt the believability of the scenario.

[QueenPurpleScrap]

For those who went that route you only think you killed her. The big outcome for you is that she is no longer in your party. Lyrium mountain + the Guardian could = a bit of glamour. Leliana is hit hard and knocked unconscious. The Guardian, who has some connection to the Maker, understands (or is told) that she still has an important role to play in upcoming events and is given the ability to create the illusion she is still fighting. The Warden can even cut off 'her' head, and leave thinking she's dead.

Thus she can easily reappear in DA2 or DA:I. There is absolutely no reason for her to explain her supposed death to Hawke, somebody she just met. She can still talk about her (limited) time with the Warden, if she wishes. She can know what happened to the Warden. She is a bard after all.

Talking about her time with the Warden if she was never recruited? That's a bit tougher and I can only explain it by extreme artistic (bardistic?) license. Or a genuine oversight by the devs/writers (there were one or two of those).

[Lennard Testarossa]

Rane7685 wrote...
In this case a gut shot with a knife with no means of medicine should lead to the pretty safe assumption that she died. It is actually quite absurd to think she survived it (see occams razor/ law of parsimony). Given the extraordinarily low possibility of surviving 'murder knife' as you put it there really isnt that much of a difference. The difference between the Morrigan/ Leliana deaths is pretty negligible

First of all, the Heisenberg Principle has nothing to do with what you just described. The part of physics that relies on statistics is statistical physics, not quantum physics.

Secondly, Morrigan is a ****ing master mage with lots of healing magic at her disposal. Care to explain why exactly it is unlikely that she'd be able to heal herself? Or that someone on the other side heals her?

It is not the least bit absurd to assume that she might have survived. What is absurd, however, is citing Occam's razor in this context.

[Nightdragon8]

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Nightdragon8 wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...


Yet you don't see her dead body but you see Leliana's. That's the difference I'm point out.

Right, some mage who was stalking the Warden so closely he managed to bring Leliana back to life seconds afterwards or random Chantry magic. Because that isn't daft or nonsensical at all.

Yes there is. You don't see Morrigan dead, she's still alive when she falls through the mirror. We don't know what's on the other side or who is there.  With Leliana she drops dead.

Because they are different scenarios, that's why people have different attitudes about it.

How do you know the guardin didn't reserect her? hmm? how do you know what happend, you left her for dead, did you wait until the body decomposed or made a fire to creamate her? nope you looted her and left. so anything that happened outside of the character being there is only assumtion.

Seriously? You kill the Guardian as well after you destroy the ashes. Ugh, what is with you people? You seriously cannot tell the difference?

and we know spirts don't "die" and the whole cave is made of lyrium. considering the "unknowns" can't really say

also "its magic" and leave it alone, they aren't going to retcon it a second time.

[Bionuts]

QueenPurpleScrap wrote...

For those who went that route you only think you killed her. The big outcome for you is that she is no longer in your party. Lyrium mountain + the Guardian could = a bit of glamour. Leliana is hit hard and knocked unconscious. The Guardian, who has some connection to the Maker, understands (or is told) that she still has an important role to play in upcoming events and is given the ability to create the illusion she is still fighting. The Warden can even cut off 'her' head, and leave thinking she's dead.

Thus she can easily reappear in DA2 or DA:I. There is absolutely no reason for her to explain her supposed death to Hawke, somebody she just met. She can still talk about her (limited) time with the Warden, if she wishes. She can know what happened to the Warden. She is a bard after all.

Talking about her time with the Warden if she was never recruited? That's a bit tougher and I can only explain it by extreme artistic (bardistic?) license. Or a genuine oversight by the devs/writers (there were one or two of those).

You can't kill Leliana without killing the Guardian. They both die.

As for her being unconscious.... my party wasn't fist fighting her. We were using sharp objects to stab her to death.

[Bfler]

Omg, why do you people argue about the same thing for the nth time? The writers decided, that she is alive, so deal with it. It's a written story and no real time simulation, which calculates your personal game according to your own actions.

Btw. during fights in Origins your chars are e.g. crushed by the fists of giant ogres or by the jaws of dragons, they are spiked by the salvos of archers etc. etc. and yet nobody dies. Why should she die from a simple stroke of a sword or axe?

[Bionuts]

Bfler wrote...
Why should she die from a simple stroke of a sword or axe?

Why would the Warden, Sten, and Morrigan give her a simple stroke? She was intent on killing them, so they killed her in return.

Seriously, the all the loops, trampolines, roller coasters, and mind jumping people are doing is weird.

Just say they retconned it, and messed up. Writers make mistakes. I can accept that.

[azarhal]

TheRealJayDee wrote...

Leliana was a damn corpse

And? We already have examples of dead people coming back to life in the setting. The 1st one was Wynne (she explain that she died in the Tower before you showed up). The concept was reused in Asunder with Evangeline and, technically, with Anders if he died in Awakening. These three were all saved by spirits. Then we have Flemeth who can put a piece of her soul in amulet and recreate her body. Shale shows that someone soul is all that is needed to keep someone alive as well. The setting is full of example of people cheating death through either immortality or "body jumping" too.

So tell me, why should Leliana be exempt of any of these? We don't know how it happened yet, but it's not like BioWare are twisting their own setting to make it happen.

[Nightdragon8]

Rane7685 wrote...

Nightdragon8 wrote...

ok... basicly, "Murder knife" (which at this point should be considered its own character) didn't "Murder" Morrigan.

The rest of the time we all saw that the person was dead... so there should be 0 doubt that those people are dead. While with Morrigan we didn't see her dead after. But are making the assumtion that sense you stabbed her with the "Murder knife" she should be dead right?

And here is the flaw in the arugment, "You assume" you don't have 100% proof that because you stabbed her with the "Murder knife" that you ended up killing her.

As for Lil... you never stab her with the Murder knife you "defeat her in battle" which someone can live from. (yes yes decaptation animation, not canon matrial)

Yes there is a difference between possibility and probability but there are some events that are so improbable that you can safely assume it. In fact all science apart from mathematics relies on it (see for example the heisenberg unceratinty principle). Scientists use a confidence interval of 95% (usually). I.e. they only say they have a result when the probability of them bein wrong is less than 5% but it is still possible.

In this case a gut shot with a knife with no means of medicine should lead to the pretty safe assumption that she died. It is actually quite absurd to think she survived it (see occams razor/ law of parsimony). Given the extraordinarily low possibility of surviving 'murder knife' as you put it there really isnt that much of a difference. The difference between the Morrigan/ Leliana deaths is pretty negligible

umm Morrigan = mage, mage = healing magic, knife wound not so serious anymore. I mean come on, the warden survived with an arrow though his chest, and was "healed" by Felimth's magic. If that could be healed fully, i'm sure a knife can be healed as well.

ahh occam's razor......  the assumer's defense. just because you are lead to think something happened, doesn't mean it did happen.

I mean look at the TV show 'Lost' begining plane crash and a few people survived, but the end you find out what really happened. 99% of mystery murder cop shows do this as well... Oh you think it was this person that did it, nope, it was this other person.

So while it is a decent guildline, just remember life isn't that simple sometimes. And in stories they can twist and proposfully distort and only show you what they want to show you. I mean just because you stab someone doesn't mean you kill them. The same with gunshots. Its not unheard of, of people getting shot in the head, and driving themselves tot he hospital and saying "I was shot in the head" and then the nurses not bleaving the person.

because getting shot in hte head = death 100% of the time. (yes it was just a .22 bullet but still how the hell was the guy who got shot in the head sposed to know what size round went in... I'm sure he wasn't really worried about the size as wanting to get treated.

Also I call "red herring" on the issue with Morigan, however it looks like alot of people are going with the Chewbacca Defense on this one...

Modifié par Nightdragon8, 04 juillet 2013 - 04:07 .

[GreyLycanTrope]

azarhal wrote...
And? We already have examples of dead people coming back to life in the setting. The 1st one was Wynne (she explain that she died in the Tower before you showed up). The concept was reused in Asunder with Evangeline and, technically, with Anders if he died in Awakening. These three were all saved by spirits. Then we have Flemeth who can put a piece of her soul in amulet and recreate her body. Shale shows that someone soul is all that is needed to keep someone alive as well. The setting is full of example of people cheating death through either immortality or "body jumping" too.

So tell me, why should Leliana be exempt of any of these? We don't know how it happened yet, but it's not like BioWare are twisting their own setting to make it happen.

Because she's not a mage with a connection to spirits and the fade and offers no explination of how her beheading got cured and she suddenly got better, merely that the rumors of her dead were greatly exaggerated. We also see that more than just her soul remains intact.

Modifié par Greylycantrope, 04 juillet 2013 - 04:09 .

[Bionuts]

So Leliana is an abomination?

[Nightdragon8]

Greylycantrope wrote...

azarhal wrote...
And? We already have examples of dead people coming back to life in the setting. The 1st one was Wynne (she explain that she died in the Tower before you showed up). The concept was reused in Asunder with Evangeline and, technically, with Anders if he died in Awakening. These three were all saved by spirits. Then we have Flemeth who can put a piece of her soul in amulet and recreate her body. Shale shows that someone soul is all that is needed to keep someone alive as well. The setting is full of example of people cheating death through either immortality or "body jumping" too.

So tell me, why should Leliana be exempt of any of these? We don't know how it happened yet, but it's not like BioWare are twisting their own setting to make it happen.

Because she's not a mage with a connection to spirits and the fade and offers no explination of how her beheading got cured and she suddenly got better, merely that the rumors of her dead were greatly exaggerated. We also see that more than just her soul remains intact.

yea she only "died" in a lyrim lined cave that was able to make ashs into a cureall for everything....

[azarhal]

Bionuts wrote...

So Leliana is an abomination?

That or she got a friend that can fix her body and rebind her soul to it or she's actually at power Flemeth-level and when you see her in DA2 it's not the body she had in DAO.

[Angrywolves]

People that hate Leliana may have an opprotunity to kill her for good.
It may be that destroying the chantry is an option the Inquisitor will have in DAI.

[GreyLycanTrope]

Nightdragon8 wrote...
yea she only "died" in a lyrim lined cave that was able to make ashs into a cureall for everything....

Cure for existing ailments, I wasn't aware death was an ailment. Not to mention dripping blood in the ashes makes them worthless as a curative. Prolonged exposure to lyrium also makes people crazy and ill incase you're forgetting.

Modifié par Greylycantrope, 04 juillet 2013 - 04:40 .

[LobselVith8]

MadCat221 wrote...

Doesn't killing her involve taking her head off? I never did it, but I remember reading that it involves beheading.

Just how do they negate that?

I know that it's a game mechanic of animation, but I do get the general point about Leliana coming back from the dead from a wound that should have killed her. Logically, killing her could involve seriously hurting her with magic (like Orsino did when he fried one of the Qunari guarding the Viscount's Keep) with a mage, perhaps putting a sword through her chest (and her heart) with a warrior Warden, or doing something similar with daggers or a bow with a rogue Warden.

Then again, they might simply not bother to explain it, like when the Warden-Commander doesn't recruit Anders and kills Justice at the Dragonbone Wastes, or when Oghren is ressurected in Awakening from being killed in Origins just because.

[QueenPurpleScrap]

I don't think you actually kill the Guardian. He's weak and defeated but not dead. In which case my scenario is still possible. I never said he didn't attack you. In any case, I was simply offering an alternative to her resurrection.

I've never killed or failed to recruit any of my companions, I may see if I can do so. It's not easy for me since it means playing in a way that's out of my comfort zone.

[AlanC9]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Then again, they might simply not bother to explain it, like when the Warden-Commander doesn't recruit Anders and kills Justice at the Dragonbone Wastes, or when Oghren is ressurected in Awakening from being killed in Origins just because.

Another option would be to prevent a save import if the save has anyone dead who shouldn't be. I don't know if that approach would be too popular, though.

[Nole]

Leliana is Andraste.

[KENNY4753]

I love the whole "BioWare ignored my choice" arguement. It makes no sense. Your choice wasnt to kill Leliana. Your choice was to defile the ashes. The choice was not retconned. 1 of the many consequences of this choice was retconned. Not the choice itself.

As for people saying they chopped off her head, that too means nothing. It was a random game animation. Nothing more

[TheRealJayDee]

KENNY4753 wrote...

As for people saying they chopped off her head, that too means nothing. It was a random game animation. Nothing more

Then these random animations need to stay the hell away from scenarios like this. A chopped off head is a chopped off head.

[Nightdragon8]

Greylycantrope wrote...

Nightdragon8 wrote...
yea she only "died" in a lyrim lined cave that was able to make ashs into a cureall for everything....

Cure for existing ailments, I wasn't aware death was an ailment. Not to mention dripping blood in the ashes makes them worthless as a curative. Prolonged exposure to lyrium also makes people crazy and ill incase you're forgetting.

yes and the blood effected 100% of the ashes and none of teh ashes could have touched Leliana.. ever....

Do we know the numbers of how long it takes for Lyrium exposier to make someone crazy? I haven't seen any.