660 réponses à ce sujet

[Bionuts]

9TailsFox wrote...

Bionuts wrote...

Why would Leliana instigate a fight only to feign death 1 minute later?

She saw she can't win. She crazy not stupid.

Might be stupid to draw your blade against Warden, Sten, and Morrigan...

Writers made a mistake. I don't accept their "God, drugs, lyrium, ghosts, abrakadabra" excuse.

They made a mistake, I'll just pretend like she didn't die on that one playthrough.

[Sylvius the Mad]

EnerPrime wrote...

Because cutscene animations are scripted, while combat finisher animations are randomly selected and not recorded by the game?

It's impossible to make that distinction without breaking character.

In Exile wrote...

The same thing that let's Zevran tape his head back on after you depitate and then interrogate him after your first meeting.

I'll admit I didn't even know this could happen (though it stands to reason) until I read about it in this thread.  My disdain for melee combat meant that I almost never saw those deathblow animations.

[The Six Path of Pain]

Bionuts wrote...

Bfler wrote...
Why should she die from a simple stroke of a sword or axe?

Why would the Warden, Sten, and Morrigan give her a simple stroke? She was intent on killing them, so they killed her in return.

Seriously, the all the loops, trampolines, roller coasters, and mind jumping people are doing is weird.

Just say they retconned it, and messed up. Writers make mistakes. I can accept that.

Haha hit the nail on the head buddy.There is no need for some elaborate explanation, since they didn't even bother coming up with one in the first place, why? Because they simply retconned it, which is really annoying by the way. Though she did tell the truth when she said"The Maker decided it wasn't my time yet," by maker she's obviously reffering to Gaider lol.

Modifié par The Six Path of Pain, 04 juillet 2013 - 09:16 .

[Zetheria Tabris]

Ziggeh wrote...

But you have evidence to the contrary: Leilana walking about. 

Because Bioware retconned her death. Horribly, I might add.

[Azaron Nightblade]

If the former is the case, Evangeline was indeed dead (dead, lethally wounded and unconscious, dead, just to make my point clear!) and she was brought back to life and is indeed Evangeline, her soul/essence/whatever, her personality and everything JUST her and no Spirit of Faith fusion/whatever?

If someone who read Asunder could shed light on that question with a detailed answer that can verify or contradict my question, please do so.

It is exactly her, Evangeline herself - not a meatpuppet operated by the spirit, she doesn't even know if the spirit is still inside her or whether it somehow got consumed in the whole resurrection thing.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Nightdragon8 wrote...

sigh and another round of "but she lost her bead" 

not real never happened not canon

It was depicted on screen.  If we're supposed to ignore that, then are we also supposed to ignore the contents of cutscenes?  And then won't the plot of both games suddenly be a complete mystery to us?

If these games are supposed to be cinematic, then the stuff we see happen needs to be stuff that actually happens.  Either the game is cinematic or it isn't.  They can't have it both ways.

[MisanthropePrime]

I don't think it's at all impossible that Leliana is an abomination, albeit a well preserved one. There's a bit of a change in her personality between the two games- though that could be explained by her being "hardened" (if you did it) or just 10 years of being a BAMF doing black ops for the Divine. The thing is, it's much harder to tell when a non-mage is an abomination because they don't get all glowy-eyed and transform.

[David Gaider]

Since this is another topic that has come up yet again, I shall point to my blog post which addresses it.

Not that it will make much difference to those who just don't like it no matter the reasoning or explanation (or lack thereof), I'm sure-- but there you go.

[Azaron Nightblade]

Neofelis Nebulosa wrote...


Duh, well ... it's good to know the head writer has decided to ignore his lore.


Everything's fair then I suppose.



edit://
Wait a second, before I go out and say Mr. Gaider (who just ninja'd me with his blog ) ignored his lore alltogether, I just looked up the corresponding codex entry on the cardinals of magic once more and am willing to suspense my disbelieve as far as to accept the possibility of Evangeline being brought back from the precipice of death (as opposed to dead). I assume Wynne did so right after her supposed death, correct? So, with a bit of stretching on what the Spirit is actually capable of, I may accept Evangeline as brought back from the precipice of death. I still maintain my position that there is no resurrection in the Dragon Age lore though.




edit2://

Now that Mr. Gaider is here, are you willing to indulge me in a small argument about the Leliana thing in particular? You may not know me and fear I may start calling you arrogant and stuff, but I can asure you I will not. I prefer to have an as civil discussion as humanly possible and can always agree on disagreeing, but I would love to discuss the supposed certainty of Leliana's death in the context of (head-) canon and it's handling in DAII.


Please.

Not sure if this is what you are referring to, but if I recall correctly the codex entry where it is stated that magic can do a lot of things, but it can't bring anyone back from the dead, is actually based on a dissertation or some kind of study performed by some famous Enchanter.
Mind you, I could be wrong - it could be a loading screen tip, but IF it is based on the opinion of a person - who is to say that this means "No resurrection" is actually set in stone?
Once upon a time the most brilliant minds in the academic world would've laughed at anyone that claimed the planet was actually round - is it therefore so hard to believe an Enchanter could be equally wrong?
As for Evangeline, she was dead dead if I recall correctly. A sword thrust right through the heart that dropped her on the spot - and she had been dead for at least several minutes before Wynne arrived.

Modifié par Azaron Nightblade, 04 juillet 2013 - 11:13 .

[Heimdall]

Neofelis Nebulosa wrote...


edit2://

Now that Mr. Gaider is here, are you willing to indulge me in a small argument about the Leliana thing in particular? You may not know me and fear I may start calling you arrogant and stuff, but I can asure you I will not. I prefer to have an as civil discussion as humanly possible and can always agree on disagreeing, but I would love to discuss the supposed certainty of Leliana's death in the context of (head-) canon and it's handling in DAII.


Please.

He may prove me wrong, but I wouldn't get your hopes up.  Mr.Gaider has discussed the matter ad nauseum on these forums.  

[Ianamus]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Nightdragon8 wrote...

sigh and another round of "but she lost her bead" 

not real never happened not canon

It was depicted on screen.  If we're supposed to ignore that, then are we also supposed to ignore the contents of cutscenes?  And then won't the plot of both games suddenly be a complete mystery to us?

If these games are supposed to be cinematic, then the stuff we see happen needs to be stuff that actually happens.  Either the game is cinematic or it isn't.  They can't have it both ways.

It was possible to decapitate Zevran and then talk to him and let him join the party. 

Other events that were depicted on screen: My Hawke kiting the Arishok across the room for nearly half an hour. My warden running across the entire length of the deep roads three times to change party members. My Hawke inadvertedly hitting about ten by-standers with his spells while fighting in Kirkwall. My commander Shepard getting stuck on top of a pile of crates for about ten minutes during a glitch in ME1. 

Trying to say that gameplay aspects are canon because they are depicted on screen is rather pointless when you consider all the ways gameplay is seperated from the story. Using your logic you could justify any number of ridiculous things you did during gameplay as canon. 

Modifié par EJ107, 04 juillet 2013 - 11:31 .

[Face of Evil]

I once recruited Justice while he was on fire.

Another time, I saw the First get up and chat with the Baroness when his head was missing.

Those both happened during cutscenes, by the way.

Modifié par Face of Evil, 04 juillet 2013 - 11:29 .

[Azaron Nightblade]

Neofelis Nebulosa wrote...

I am aware the codex is written from an ingame biased perspective and thus not the end of wisdom. I am however personally biased on account of me not wanting to have magic serve as the allsolving handwave mechanic. I'd rather discover something using reason, cause and effect than just say "a mage did it".

That is the reason why I personally regard the death is ultimate as one of the cardinal finites of Thedas. For example what would hinder any particularily powerful darkspawn to simply resurrect all the fallen Old Gods? Why search for others if you could just burn through a couple dozen Emissaries and resurrect the one you just lost? It would theoretically cause a perpetual Blight.



Note that in regard to Evangeline, who seems to be the prime example as an exemplary counter argument against the "no resurrections", I would adhere to that set of magic restrictions, just really, really stretch the realm of possibility, not break it.




The problem with Leliana however is, with the Urn defiled, the Guardians dead and the lyrium mountain itself evidently not bringing people back to life (as evidenced by the swath of corpses my Warden left behind getting up there, none of them got up, aye?), I see no possibility that someone could have rushed there and rescued Leliana from what firmly roleplay as a serious confrontation with the Warden. the ones (well, just one) that defile the Urn of Sacred Ashes would have no qualm, even be motivated to permanently silence Leliana from acting against them, which means death.



I am trying to wrap my head around how it is possible that she remains alive if that happened to be that case.





Mind you, I am not deadset on proving everyone how it shouldn't be possible, I am trying quite the contrary as I am trying to think of a way how it could be.

Though I suppose I give wrong signs with me deconstructing all those counterarguments. I am however merely eliminating what does not work. Hence my plead to have a small discussion with Gaider as he may divulge plans and background information we may not know that could render her comeback a viable explanation that doesn't contradict the game's lore, or at least countermands the implications of the lore as we know it.

In general I'd say because it would be a lot harder to channel enough magic to resurrect something as massive as a Dragon, and probably because even IF resurrection were to exist in Thedas - it means that it's basically the magical equivalent of neuro-surgery, with only a handful of people that can do it (so few in fact that this highly regarded Enchanter didn't know about it).
I would also assume that the Wardens would go out of their way to dismember and dispose of an Archdemon's corpse once it's slain, since it probably would have a lot of value to Blood Mages and other darker magic users.

And I can already hear people going: "Well, why wouldn't my Warden have done this to Leliana then? Chopped her into bits and scattered the remains all over Thedas so she couldn't back!" to which I can only say "Really? And did your Warden do this for every enemy you killed? You know, the several THOUSANDS that you mowed down in the course of the game? No? Ah, then he just happened to be precognitive and saw that in the future a writer was going to bring Leliana back? Must be nice for you."
That being said, there could've been a number of contingencies she had in play - maybe some magic trinket that whisked her body away to a safe place if she was close enough to dying.
But I really doubt they'll be going with a simple handwave and go "magic did it", and that I believe their explanation will be far better than my D&D-ish example above. 
I think the only answer we'll get from David Gaider at this point is the one he gave at the bottom of that link.

Modifié par Azaron Nightblade, 04 juillet 2013 - 11:44 .

[Angrywolves]

some people like to argue.
I never killed leliana or morrigan So I can't be retconned. Too bad for the players who were. shrugged.

[addiction21]

LobselVith8 wrote...

addiction21 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Oghren provides an explanation about the wall of lyrium effecting everything in the ruins of the temple, including the ashes.

Its a guess a theory at best not an explanation.

Oghren's a dwarf who has a more informed knowledge of lyrium than anyone else in The Warden's company. He explains that the thick wall of lyrium is actively effecting everything in the temple, including Andraste's ashes. Oghren says: "The lyrium veins in these walls are richer and purer than any I've sensed in a while. It's doing things... changing this temple and everything in it."

I know what Oghren said and its still JUST A THEORY. It is never confirmed why the ashes heal, why who or what the guardian is and the rest of the things going on in the shrine.

A theory, not a fact or a explanation.

P.S.

Stop using recon because it is not a retcon. The 5th blight never happening, King Cailan is alive and soaking up rays on a Antivan beach, or Gray Wardens being magical robotic ninjas from Pluto are retcons.

And no we were never promised EVERY choice possible would be carried out and that we would be allowed to mold this franchise thru them and that they would always turn out how we imagined they would.

[ames4u]

Lord Aesir wrote...

Neofelis Nebulosa wrote...


edit2://

Now that Mr. Gaider is here, are you willing to indulge me in a small argument about the Leliana thing in particular? You may not know me and fear I may start calling you arrogant and stuff, but I can asure you I will not. I prefer to have an as civil discussion as humanly possible and can always agree on disagreeing, but I would love to discuss the supposed certainty of Leliana's death in the context of (head-) canon and it's handling in DAII.


Please.

He may prove me wrong, but I wouldn't get your hopes up.  Mr.Gaider has discussed the matter ad nauseum on these forums.  

And his response to the very well wrote questions and arguments is: Because I can. Get used to it.

Problem is, it won't be quite as amusing for him when DA3 sells about as well as bottled farts. And then the ensuing fury that will result in how botched the game is will provide endless entertainment for those Who Saw It Coming and an endless headache for Those Who Thought They Knew Better. But hey, I might be wrong, doubtful, but there is a very slim anorexic possibility that they may prove me wrong.

The problem with retconning character death's is that it starts a very dangerous precedent-because if they retcon one aspect, they will in fact retcon plenty of other things as well. It is a dangerous landslide, one that will get out of hand fairly quickly-ME3 stands as a perfect example of WTF are you doing if ever I saw one. Yes, it was a different section of Bioware, but the warning signs and practices are prevalent in both franchises.

[Lord Gremlin]

When someone dies via decapitation you have to give an actual explanation when they're resurrected. Seriously. No such proper explanation with Leliana. Yes, Sacred Ashes. Defiled ones. But how she came together? Somebody put pieces together? It's little details.

[Savber100]

David Gaider wrote...

Since this is another topic that has come up yet again, I shall point to my blog post which addresses it.

Not that it will make much difference to those who just don't like it no matter the reasoning or explanation (or lack thereof), I'm sure-- but there you go.

I think you're missing the point. The problem isn't the fact player choices were negated but how poorly it was explained when Bioware needs to create a version of canon. 

If you had a character get killed as in the main character thrusted a sword into the chest or cut off the head come back, explain it through the very lore you created.


Don't just handwave it and say she ain't dead because she apppeared in DA2. Instead, it's better to provide a clear explanation of how it happened. 

How did the Sacred Ashes revive her? How did her head magically find itself back onto her body? It's an attention to detail that fans are clamoring for. 

Modifié par Savber100, 05 juillet 2013 - 12:46 .

[Azaron Nightblade]

Savber100 wrote...

How did the Sacred Ashes revive her? How did her head magically find itself back onto her body? It's an attention to detail that fans are clamoring for. 

[LobselVith8]

addiction21 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Oghren's a dwarf who has a more informed knowledge of lyrium than anyone else in The Warden's company. He explains that the thick wall of lyrium is actively effecting everything in the temple, including Andraste's ashes. Oghren says: "The lyrium veins in these walls are richer and purer than any I've sensed in a while. It's doing things... changing this temple and everything in it."

I know what Oghren said and its still JUST A THEORY. It is never confirmed why the ashes heal, why who or what the guardian is and the rest of the things going on in the shrine.

A theory, not a fact or a explanation. 

Explaining that a thick, rich wall of lyrium is actively effecting everything in the temple is also a fact.

addiction21 wrote...

Stop using recon because it is not a retcon. The 5th blight never happening, King Cailan is alive and soaking up rays on a Antivan beach, or Gray Wardens being magical robotic ninjas from Pluto are retcons.

Leliana being brought back from the dead if she was killed is also a recton.

addiction21 wrote...

And no we were never promised EVERY choice possible would be carried out and that we would be allowed to mold this franchise thru them and that they would always turn out how we imagined they would.

We were told choices would be carried over. That's why some people take issue with handwaves and rectons.

[Ianamus]

People go on too much about that stupid decapitation thing. How many people actually decided to kill Leliana and got that special killing blow animation? Two, maybe three?

Modifié par EJ107, 05 juillet 2013 - 12:57 .