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[Azaron Nightblade]

EJ107 wrote...

People go on too much about that stupid decapitation thing. How many people actually decided to kill Leliana and got that special killing blow animation? Two, maybe three?

If one were to judge by this thread? 90%.
In reality? Probably far less, but it's far easier to "monkey see, monkey do" and just copy the lame arguement everyone on this thread clings to so desperately.
It appeared on their screen, so therefore it must be true - her head came off.
Makes me wonder if someone calls them idiots on their screen whether they'll take it as gospel too. 

[What a Succulent Ass]

David Gaider wrote...

Since this is another topic that has come up yet again, I shall point to my blog post which addresses it.

Not that it will make much difference to those who just don't like it no matter the reasoning or explanation (or lack thereof), I'm sure-- but there you go.

[addiction21]

LobselVith8 wrote...
snip

But it does not explain why what is happening is happening. That there is a large vein of lyrium is a fact. What it is doing is speculation and never confirmed.

No its not a retcon because its not established lore just a possible choice. Yes choices would be carried over but it was never said they would meet our headcannon. That these choices would pan out how we imagined they would and David Gaider has been rather adamant about Lelianna being explained so its again not a retcon or being handwaved.

[Azaron Nightblade]

Filament wrote...

Azaron Nightblade wrote...

EJ107 wrote...

People go on too much about that stupid decapitation thing. How many people actually decided to kill Leliana and got that special killing blow animation? Two, maybe three?

If one were to judge by this thread? 90%.
In reality? Probably far less, but it's far easier to "monkey see, monkey do" and just copy the lame arguement everyone on this thread clings to so desperately.
It appeared on their screen, so therefore it must be true - her head came off.
Makes me wonder if someone calls them idiots on their screen whether they'll take it as gospel too. 

Maybe they just killed her normally and remembered that in some combats spectacular killing blows occur, then checked with others to confirm that this is in fact possible with Leliana, indicating for those keen to watch out for twist type endings that she is indeed very dead. That's assuming they were planning ahead though and not flying by the seat of their pants, then maybe they'd want to make sure there was a flag for some enemies for killing blow chance = 0.

Sounds plausible.
"Hey, didn't I decapitate a Darkspawn at some point? Hey dude, does that work on Leliana too? It does? Oh, sweet, my Warden TOTALLY did that too! Hey Gaider, WTF man?! My Warden cut off Leliana's head, her FRIGGIN'. HEAD!!!".

[Ianamus]

David Gaider wrote...

Since this is another topic that has come up yet again, I shall point to my blog post which addresses it.

Not that it will make much difference to those who just don't like it no matter the reasoning or explanation (or lack thereof), I'm sure-- but there you go.

People don't look at it and go "Leliana's alive- therefore she must not have died" they look at it and go "Leliana's alive- therefore Bioware must have ignored the possibility of her death". While I don't agree with scapegoating or jumping to conclusions I do have to be incredibly honest and say that I too just went with the latter explanation at the time, because there was no evidence otherwise and it seemed like the most likely explanation. 

I don't think it was necessary to go into any great detail in-game, but if it was decided that if Leliana fought the warden the ashes kept her alive then just adding a piece of gossip between two NPC's about the ashes being able to revive people from near death or talk of a woman who claims to have been "saved by the Maker" or something similar would have sufficed to show that it was thought out rather than ignored for inconvinience. Leliana could even have been given an throwaway line of dialogue along the lines of "I've been too close to death myself" or something like that. 

Filament wrote...

Maybe they just killed her normally and remembered that in some combats spectacular killing blows occur, then checked with others to confirm that this is in fact possible with Leliana, indicating for those keen to watch out for twist type endings that she is indeed very dead. That's assuming they were planning ahead though and not flying by the seat of their pants, then maybe they'd want to make sure there was a flag for some enemies for killing blow chance = 0.

I am 100% sure that's what's happened. And then everyone jumped on the decapitatiopn bandwagon. 

Modifié par EJ107, 05 juillet 2013 - 01:22 .

[The Spirit of Dance]

Imagine if the Anvil got reconstructed and Orzammar got an army of golems no matter what you did, Anora usurps Alistair and becomes Queen of Ferelden 10 years after the events of Origins or The Maker using his sacred powers to make the Urn of Sacred Ashes magically replenish itself despite pouring dragon blood in it. Stuff like that makes all the choices we made seem pointless and eliminates one of the attractions of the DA games which is constructing your own world. From now on I think story writers should be careful about which characters we can and can't kill.

Modifié par supremebloodwolf, 05 juillet 2013 - 01:14 .

[Milan92]

Why would you not want her back? Why do you want her dead in the first place?

[Ryzaki]

9TailsFox wrote...

Bionuts wrote...

Why would Leliana instigate a fight only to feign death 1 minute later?

She saw she can't win. She crazy not stupid.

To be frank she never should've instigated that fight in the first place.

To me it's just an attempt to have a consequence (leliana dying because you poisoned the ashes) and still have her be around for future content regardless of her having be killed.

Cheap.

[LobselVith8]

addiction21 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
snip 

But it does not explain why what is happening is happening. That there is a large vein of lyrium is a fact. What it is doing is speculation and never confirmed.

It is the only explanation given in Origins as to why the ashes have healing properties.

addiction21 wrote...

No its not a retcon because its not established lore just a possible choice. Yes choices would be carried over but it was never said they would meet our headcannon. That these choices would pan out how we imagined they would and David Gaider has been rather adamant about Lelianna being explained so its again not a retcon or being handwaved.

It is a recton since it changes the previous established narrative of Leliana being dead.

[Neon Rising Winter]

LobselVith8 wrote...

addiction21 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
snip 

But it does not explain why what is happening is happening. That there is a large vein of lyrium is a fact. What it is doing is speculation and never confirmed.

It is the only explanation given in Origins as to why the ashes have healing properties.

addiction21 wrote...

No its not a retcon because its not established lore just a possible choice. Yes choices would be carried over but it was never said they would meet our headcannon. That these choices would pan out how we imagined they would and David Gaider has been rather adamant about Lelianna being explained so its again not a retcon or being handwaved.

It is a recton since it changes the previous established narrative of Leliana being dead.

Seems a bit suspicious that the previously established narrative had her killed right next to the much celebrated super healing device doesn't it? Now whether this is good planning or luck is one thing, but either way that's still the situation. I'm not buying the decapitation argument because gameplay =\\= story for me, certainly not at that level of detail. Maybe the previously established narrative was having fun messing with you a bit.

[Andraste_Reborn]

I once decapitated Howe, only for his head to be re-attached for his death scene. (Which was a shame, since the character that did the decapitating was my Cousland.) It's also entirely possible to cut Zevran's head off and then recruit him. It seems that deathblows are not canon.

[Azaron Nightblade]

Neofelis Nebulosa wrote...

Why does everyone citing Leliana being dead when confronted in that situation the Urn of Ashes as "the glaringly obvious weakpoint that would have negated any and all damage to Leliana, because, durp, the Urn somehow fell of its altar and smothered leliana in the all healing ashes" UTTERLY FORGET the fact that situation only occurs when you DEFILED those very ashes, robbing them off their powers?



Do you people have such horrible memory or are you just ignoring the inconvinient?

There's no guarantee the Ashes are what brought her back - though it does seem to be the arguement of choice for the opposite faction of the Decapitators. 
Though I feel I should also point out that the defiling of the ashes was done using the word of some Dragon worshipping loonie, and the logic that: Old Gods = Maker's nemesis, therefore the blood of "Old Gods" (AKA Dragons) should do the job of defiling the "Maker's" creation.
It doesn't make it a 100% sure bet either that it worked.

Andrastee wrote...

I once decapitated Howe, only for his head to be re-attached for his death scene. (Which was a shame, since the character that did the decapitating was my Cousland.) It's also entirely possible to cut Zevran's head off and then recruit him. It seems that deathblows are not canon.

I think the first time it happened to me was with Zevran, sure he was still bloodied from the beating he'd taken, but his head was magically re-attached - much to my amusement at the time.

Modifié par Azaron Nightblade, 05 juillet 2013 - 01:38 .

[dragondreamer]

How do we know defiling the ashes robs them of their powers? Because the crazy cult guys said so? The same ones who think their pet dragon is Andraste? I dunno, sounds kinda sketchy.

[Neon Rising Winter]

Neofelis Nebulosa wrote...
Why does everyone citing Leliana being dead when confronted in that situation the Urn of Ashes as "the glaringly obvious weakpoint that would have negated any and all damage to Leliana, because, durp, the Urn somehow fell of its altar and smothered leliana in the all healing ashes" UTTERLY FORGET the fact that situation only occurs when you DEFILED those very ashes, robbing them off their powers?

Do you people have such horrible memory or are you just ignoring the inconvinient?

I guess I'm more comfortable with the idea of the unreliable narrator. You defiled the ashes. Well you did something that a few people told you would defile them, and you believed them. An assortment of religious zealots wasn't it? I mean really for all we know you may just have created the urn of the sacred mudpack instead.

And hey, the writers might have something else entirely in mind, who knows. Not me for sure. I'm just saying there's enough there already for my sense of disbelief to walk away.

[GreyLycanTrope]

Nightdragon8 wrote...
???? Your the one that brought up Lyrium exposure not me??

So was the lyrium in the cave Raw? where is the codex that says it is,

Also where is the data that the blood effected 100% of the ashes,

Also did the Warden or any other member check to see if she was really dead and not passed out because of the pain... or you know faking it.

Also "Its magic" does it really need to be rationalized?

Er.. no I brought up spirits and mages the lyrium line cave was something you brought up:

Nightdragon8 wrote...

Greylycantrope wrote...
Because she's not a mage with a connection to spirits and the fade and offers no explination of how her beheading got cured and she suddenly got better, merely that the rumors of her dead were greatly exaggerated. We also see that more than just her soul remains intact.

yea she only "died" in a lyrim lined cave that was able to make ashs into a cureall for everything....

See? Seemed like you were also implying the lyrium could itself act to revive her. I could've also read too much into it, if that's the case feel free to disregard that comment.

It's a lyrium vein I'm assumming it's raw, as in not distilled enough for human use.

People seek out and use it's miracle cure only if you don't corrupt the ashes:
"If The Warden defiled the Sacred Ashes for Kolgrim but then kills him and does not kill the High Dragon, rumours about the Urn of Ashes involvement in curing Arl Eamon spread and people begin to mount expeditions to find it. After finding nothing but a High Dragon and many failed attempts to slay the Dragon, the expeditions are decided to be too dangerous to continue. The Dragon eventually goes west to find a new Haven but goes on a rampage beforehand leaving nothing but ruins of the temple. Later expeditions and digs in the ruins found nothing. Some believe that the Urn is still in the ruins while some say it was destroyed, others wonder if it ever existed at all, the Urn falls into myth once more."

Doesn't sound like anyone found any more ashes does it?

Again though at no point do the ashes cure death.

You can loot her corse so yeah, sure looks like they did check. Her codex even updates to say she died if I recall correctly.

Even magic has rules.

Modifié par Greylycantrope, 05 juillet 2013 - 01:46 .

[In Exile]

LobselVith8 wrote...

...
It is the only explanation given in Origins as to why the ashes have healing properties.
...
It is a recton since it changes the previous established narrative of Leliana being dead.

These positions are completely inconsistent. If the only lore available justification is that the mountain is magic, then there's no reason to believe some ashes have unique healing powers, and then there's nothing for Leliana's healing to constitute a "retcon", because there was no basis to be sure in DA:O that she could be dead.

[LobselVith8]

Azaron Nightblade wrote...

There's no guarantee the Ashes are what brought her back - though it does seem to be the arguement of choice for the opposite faction of the Decapitators. 
Though I feel I should also point out that the defiling of the ashes was done using the word of some Dragon worshipping loonie, and the logic that: Old Gods = Maker's nemesis, therefore the blood of "Old Gods" (AKA Dragons) should do the job of defiling the "Maker's" creation.
It doesn't make it a 100% sure bet either that it worked.

Kolgrim and his followers thought the High Dragon was Andraste reborn; they didn't worship the Old Gods. And there are very old corpses in the same room as the Urn.

[addiction21]

LobselVith8 wrote...


It is the only explanation given in Origins as to why the ashes have healing properties.

No it is not. The other one is that it is divine. The cause of some higher power. Neither that or lyrium are proven to be the reason why but both are there.

LobselVith8 wrote...


It is a recton since it changes the previous established narrative of Leliana being dead.

No its not because we were never promised that sort of power. Even then if BiioWare covers the possibility of her being dead in the future then it has not been handwaved or retconned. Something they have been adamant about covering.

You not liking it or feeling that you didn't get the outcome you wanted does not make it a retcon. Throwing retcon around does not make your argument more valid. Retcon just like plot hole has lost all meaning around here.

LobselVith8 wrote...

And there are very old corpses in the same room as the Urn.

What is your excuse for those old corpses? They stayed dead but Leliana did not? Did the lytium like her accent or hair so much it brought her back to life but not the rest? Why is this inanimate object, this thing so picky?

Modifié par addiction21, 05 juillet 2013 - 02:12 .

[Eveangaline]

I've never killed her, but she can be killed in places other than the area with andrastes ashes, right?

[franciscoamell]

Eveangaline wrote...

I've never killed her, but she can be killed in places other than the area with andrastes ashes, right?

I think that's her only death on screen. You could never recruit her and then Lothering would be destroyed by the darkspawn but that doesn't seem to kill her.

[In Exile]

Eveangaline wrote...

I've never killed her, but she can be killed in places other than the area with andrastes ashes, right?

Well, she can be set on fire and then munched on by the dragon, fall unconscious, have a broken skull and internal hemorrages, but she seems to be totally fine after all of that.