335 réponses à ce sujet

[MerinTB]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

^

The Final Fantasy series has a shot at beating Skyrim. Otherwise, if memory serves me correctly, Skyrim is the highest selling game ever dubbed with the title of being an RPG. Besides maybe Call of Duty: Black Ops.

If you count Grand Theft Auto or The Sims (arguments can be made for those being RPGs, I wouldn't call them such, but I also don't like calling Diablo an RPG so there you go...)

Then GTA and Sims wins hands down.

FF XIII beats Skyrim on PS3.

[Asdrubael Vect]

one of the main problems with voiced protag is

1)that you will be forced to play only as a ****ing boring human character in universe who have 4 interesting races or more...this is why many peoples not like Hawke/Shepard clones

2)that you can not like his/her voice and limited dialog options ...this is why many peoples not like Hawke/Shepard clones

if i cant create my own character who would be as i wanted and who have voice as i wanted in rich fantasy/sci fi universe so why the hell i need this bull**** characters like Hawke and Shepard

voiced protag have some + but they have more -

so i am for silent protag if we would have another only boring human race character with one voice

why the hell bioware creates good game universes with interesting world and races with their cultures but force us to play only for one the most boring race in their universse

Modifié par Dark Korsar, 23 juillet 2013 - 06:09 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

Given that JRPGs traditionally give the player no control at all of the PC's personality or motivation, I'm disinclined to include them in the analysis.

Obviously, given that difference, it should be much easier to voice a JRPG protagonist without otherwise damaging the game.

[Am1vf]

Diablo an RPG? Seems like an action hack and slash game to me.

[D1ck1e]

Voiced.

[Fast Jimmy]

Even though I started the sales line of discussion, I think it is misleading to go down. If Bioware were to follow this alone, DA:I would be a single player game (or one where you can bring along one flat, boring companion character).

I stick by my guns previously that production costs and keeping project dependencies as light as possible is the best policy when making an RPG, especially one that is dialogue and choice driven. Spending the extra money to make things more cinematic obviously isn't a gateway into exponentially more sales and if it harms the level of delivery of other systems or abilities within your game, it is doing more harm than good.

[o Ventus]

Dark Korsar wrote...

1)that you will be forced to play only as a ****ing boring human character in universe who have 4 interesting races or more...this is why many peoples not like Hawke/Shepard clones

Not necessarily.

2)that you can not like his/her voice and limited dialog options ...this is why many peoples not like Hawke/Shepard clones

You  already have a limited selection of dialogue choices even wih a silent protagonist. I don't know where you're getting "many people" from. I also don't know where you're getting "clones" from. Everybody's Shepard/Hawke is different.

[MerinTB]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Given that JRPGs traditionally give the player no control at all of the PC's personality or motivation, I'm disinclined to include them in the analysis.

Obviously, given that difference, it should be much easier to voice a JRPG protagonist without otherwise damaging the game.

Right behind Diablo, however, is The Witcher 2 then The Witcher.  Fully preset, voiced characters, for the PC.

So, yeah, I think JRPG's count.  Especially since the main dislike of voiced, that it eliminates player agency over creating their character, is actually most directly countered by players happily playing absolutely pre-set, voiced characters.

[Plaintiff]

There are FOUR interesting races in Dragon Age? I must've missed that.

[Amycus89]

Plaintiff wrote...

There are FOUR interesting races in Dragon Age? I must've missed that.

Humans, elves, dwarves and qunari? 

[Fast Jimmy]

According to the devs, this is incorrect. Voiced protagonist is not the main obstacle to having multiple race options. It's more the full level of reactivity to that choice. (and simply their discretion about wanting to tell a story specifically about a human protagonist)

And I would be disinclined to say they are being entirely upfront with their response.

Because what is reactivity if not more dialogue from NPCs? And what is the biggest constraint to more dialogue options/lines if not the VA and the associated drive for cinematic quality that goes with it?

Changing a text editor with a /if-then <text> script is a matter of minutes to update. Recording lines is a matter of weeks.

I simply don't accept the premise that building more reactivity in a game is not limited by high production values. It can still be done, but it greatly increases cost for each element you try to incorporate. Hence, it makes sense for them to focus all of their efforts of reactivity to being on class, or gender, or romance choice, etc. rather than adding in another facet to the complexity with race.

[TribolMan]

Voiced protags can work if they're done right and the voice acting is good but that's usually not the case so I tend prefer the silent ones like the Warden or the heroes from the Fallout series

[Magdalena11]

Amycus89 wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

There are FOUR interesting races in Dragon Age? I must've missed that.

Humans, elves, dwarves and qunari? 

But you have to be interested in them.  I've played city elves, dalish elves, noble and commoner dwarves and the fact that they were a non-human race did not add anything to my playthrough.  I loved Sten to pieces but have no interest in playing a qunari.  If I'm stuck being a human again I won't lose any sleep.

[Fast Jimmy]

^

I'd disagree. Although I would not in the least argue against a non-voiced world, it stil is a matter of scale. An NPC need only react with one response. A PC must have each dialogue option recorded (three, four, five, six or more options) as well as need to be recorded for two genders.

For instance, Leliana asking us how we feel about being an elf has only maybe four or five lines by her. Yet the Warden's response number in the dozens over the course of the short conversation, depending on different attitudes and word choices. Couple that with double dialogue for gender and it is suddenly clear - the voiced PC is easily the source of VA glut.

Having an NPC call is a dirty knife ear as we walked by, with no response a all able from the PC, would be one of the few examples of one-sides dialogue options. The vast majority of reacitovty would involve a PC response, usually all with options (and, again, doubled by gender).

I think when Bioware says the voiced protag is not the source, they mean that they could physically offer the "skin" of a different race, regardless of the VA. However for them to build any kind of reaction to it with the voiced PC, it becomes a nightmare of ballooning scope and cost. That's why they don't do it.

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 23 juillet 2013 - 07:46 .

[aeoncs]

cjones91 wrote...

aeoncs wrote...

easygame88 wrote...

Renmiri1 wrote...

It is going to be voiced. The majority likes it this way.

Get over it

Hardly

Hardly? Try positively.
The vast, vast, vast (!) majority prefers a voiced protagonist if said protagonist takes centre stage - which will be the case in DA: I. It's not the 90's anymore.

Skyrim and the Fallout series say otherwise.

You do know what "taking centre stage" means, right? Fallout and Elder Scrolls aren't story driven games and don't need to have a strong and fleshed out lead. Let's just say it as it is, no one really cares about the main storyline in games like that - and even though this is true, do you really believe that the sales would be lower with a voiced PC? Right.
The Warden in DA:O was "ok" because it took some time for him to be really relevant to the plot and even then, he will never be as memorable as The Champion, even considering DA2 was the inferior game.

Shevy_001 wrote...
Proof? Source?

Stop making things up and state them as fact.

Seriously?
Just take your time and count voiced vs. silent in this very thread.
And it's the same damn thing every single time, in every single poll/discussion in many different gaming communities.

Modifié par aeoncs, 23 juillet 2013 - 07:52 .

[Fast Jimmy]

Filament wrote...

Well that goes back to your original point that you basically think the devs are lying, but I think you're overestimating the scale of the protagonist's input and they probably aren't lying. You originally supported that point by talking about NPC-specific reactivity but now it's about the PC, which makes more sense given what you're saying.

If we're just talking high production values beyond voice, then yes, I believe specifically it was the game reacting in cinematics to different heights, needing custom animations etc that was the main concern. But not voice per se.

I don't want to make it sound like I'm being accusatory or saying anyone's lying, but I think it is a mater of perspective. They may not even see a voiced PC and a design that focuses on the cinematic approach as being anywhere near the same thing. A cinematic design, of course, requires a voiced PC and may be the bigger overall culprit of higher production costs, (after all, David Gaider says its confusing when players say auto-dialogue, because it represents a myriad of different types of writing and development, despite it being one overall experience/impression by gamers) but its six or half-a-dozen to us players. I see the biggest chunk of voice work being done by the PC and the amount of reactivity, divergence and more nuanced story-through-gameplay rather than direct dialogue drop dramatically occur when the voiced PC happens.

Again, I'm not against a 100% silent cast across the board (Project Eternity or Wasteland 2 will be examples of this), so I might not be the most objective person to ask. But it seems that the voiced PC takes the level of required work and obstacles to a critical mass level, where change becomes monumental rather than just difficult. Using totally arbitray numbers, reworks with 2000 voiced lines and 6000 written ones could be much easier than reworks in a system with 4000 voiced lines alone, even though there are half the total amount of lines. 

[RydeCrash]

Just a thought, would not having a VA for the player PC allow for the use of other races for the PC? If that was an actual option what would you pick?

1) PC with only human PC and Male/Female VA.

Or

2) PC with four playable races and story arcs (Male or Female) but no VA?

Ryde...

[Teddie Sage]

I'd pick 1 for sure. I'm tired of silent protagonists.

[Sylvius the Mad]

RydeCrash wrote...

Just a thought, would not having a VA for the player PC allow for the use of other races for the PC? If that was an actual option what would you pick?

1) PC with only human PC and Male/Female VA.

Or

2) PC with four playable races and story arcs (Male or Female) but no VA?

Ryde...

2.  No hesitation.

I don't even need the extra races as as incentive.  Silent protagonists are simply better, in all relevant respects.

[cjones91]

aeoncs wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

aeoncs wrote...

easygame88 wrote...

Renmiri1 wrote...

It is going to be voiced. The majority likes it this way.

Get over it

Hardly

Hardly? Try positively.
The vast, vast, vast (!) majority prefers a voiced protagonist if said protagonist takes centre stage - which will be the case in DA: I. It's not the 90's anymore.

Skyrim and the Fallout series say otherwise.

You do know what "taking centre stage" means, right? Fallout and Elder Scrolls aren't story driven games and don't need to have a strong and fleshed out lead. Let's just say it as it is, no one really cares about the main storyline in games like that - and even though this is true, do you really believe that the sales would be lower with a voiced PC? Right.
The Warden in DA:O was "ok" because it took some time for him to be really relevant to the plot and even then, he will never be as memorable as The Champion, even considering DA2 was the inferior game.

Shevy_001 wrote...
Proof? Source?

Stop making things up and state them as fact.

Seriously?
Just take your time and count voiced vs. silent in this very thread.
And it's the same damn thing every single time, in every single poll/discussion in many different gaming communities.

Fallout New Vegas had a great story that did'nt need a voiced protoganist,many games like the Legend of Zelda series have great stories and they can be classified as a RPG.Did I forget to mention the main character and icon is also non voiced?Despite people demanding Link to be voiced Nintendo refuses to do so since he is and always will be a non voiced protoganist.

Also I disagree when you say Hawke is more memorable than the Warden simply because Hawke is voiced.The Warden has done more than Hawke ever will and there's a reason people like the Warden more than Hawke.

[Realmzmaster]

cjones91 wrote...

Fallout New Vegas had a great story that did'nt need a voiced protoganist,many games like the Legend of Zelda series have great stories and they can be classified as a RPG.Did I forget to mention the main character and icon is also non voiced?Despite people demanding Link to be voiced Nintendo refuses to do so since he is and always will be a non voiced protoganist.

Also I disagree when you say Hawke is more memorable than the Warden simply because Hawke is voiced.The Warden has done more than Hawke ever will and there's a reason people like the Warden more than Hawke.

The poster was stating an opinion. He/she felt that for he/she Hawke was more memorable because of the voice. You stated a different opinion. Neither is wrong or right since it is not a fact just an opinion. There are also many voiced games with excellent stories like the Witcher 2 that many have praised.

So both sides can point to successful games for voice and silent protagonists.

[Fast Jimmy]

Realmzmaster wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Fallout New Vegas had a great story that did'nt need a voiced protoganist,many games like the Legend of Zelda series have great stories and they can be classified as a RPG.Did I forget to mention the main character and icon is also non voiced?Despite people demanding Link to be voiced Nintendo refuses to do so since he is and always will be a non voiced protoganist.

Also I disagree when you say Hawke is more memorable than the Warden simply because Hawke is voiced.The Warden has done more than Hawke ever will and there's a reason people like the Warden more than Hawke.

The poster was stating an opinion. He/she felt that for he/she Hawke was more memorable because of the voice. You stated a different opinion. Neither is wrong or right since it is not a fact just an opinion. There are also many voiced games with excellent stories like the Witcher 2 that many have praised.

So both sides can point to successful games for voice and silent protagonists.

I'd say no one can point to a party-based RPG with a voiced protagonist that was well received. If they can, I'd love to try it out.