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Silent Protangonist vs Voiced Protagonist


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#276
Sylvius the Mad

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Ziggeh wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

In a game  series based on creating your own character, why on Earth would anyone want a set protagonist shoved down their throat for marketing can box cover purposes? 

People are more likely to buy boxes with faces on the cover.

People generally, perhaps.

But I doubt that research has been done specifically for RPG players.

Misapplying consumer research is a constant risk.  Apple routinely misapplied their research that said people preferred using mice to keyboards, based on a single study they did in 1986.

Han Shot First wrote...

I prefer voiced.

Its one of the few areas where DA2 was an improvement over DAO. It gives the protagonist a lot more personality and involvement with the supporting characters, and conversations feel much more natural when both parties are fully voiced.

Giving the PC personality is not the game's job.  That is the player's job, and anything that prevents the player from doing that is a bad feature.

As for feeling natural, I'm not likely to care whether they feel natural unless I first get some input into what is said.  If it's just a conversation between NPCs (which is largely how ME and DA2 work), I'm not interested in the content regardless of how it's presented.

Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 29 juillet 2013 - 11:44 .


#277
mopotter

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i like voiced. Even though half the time I'm playing with the sound off and using the captions. I still like having the voice.

#278
In Exile

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Sylvius the Mad wrote...
Giving the PC personality is not the game's job.  That is the player's job, and anything that prevents the player from doing that is a bad feature.


I agree with you entirely. But we disagree about those things that prevent the player from doing so. For example, I would argue that the lack of voice prevents players (the set of people with tastes similar to mine) from designing a personality. 

Being able to interact with and manipulate the game-world is crucial for me in terms of building a character, because my characters are active. This is why, for example, a game like TES that is exclusively passive is something I can't even really consider an RPG. 

#279
WingsandRings

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I admit, when I first encountered the dialogue wheel/voiced PC, I was skeptical. But now when I replay DA:O I feel like I miss it. Plus, I actually think DA2 did a pretty good job at giving Hawke a personality even with the voice, especially with how her auto-dialogue changed (more snarky, more serious) based on the previous decisions you picked. (I know saying anything positive about DA2 is not popular, but I'm sorry, I do think they did some things well.)

So I'm all for a voiced PC.

#280
Sylvius the Mad

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In Exile wrote...

I agree with you entirely. But we disagree about those things that prevent the player from doing so. For example, I would argue that the lack of voice prevents players (the set of people with tastes similar to mine) from designing a personality.

You still have total control over what he thinks and how he feels.  And then you can use those states of mind to inform his choices from among the available actions.

That's all I ever need.

But if even I don't have total control over what he thinks or how he feels, then the game is irrevocably broken.

#281
Han Shot First

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Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Han Shot First wrote...

I prefer voiced.

Its one of the few areas where DA2 was an improvement over DAO. It gives the protagonist a lot more personality and involvement with the supporting characters, and conversations feel much more natural when both parties are fully voiced.

Giving the PC personality is not the game's job.  That is the player's job, and anything that prevents the player from doing that is a bad feature.

As for feeling natural, I'm not likely to care whether they feel natural unless I first get some input into what is said.  If it's just a conversation between NPCs (which is largely how ME and DA2 work), I'm not interested in the content regardless of how it's presented.


How does a fully voiced protagonist prevent a player from defining that character's personality?

So long as there are multiple dialogue options that shouldn't be an issue. On the other hand a character who is not voiced is going to seem to be lacking in personality compared to one that is, as the replies are going to much shorter and missing the emotion you get in a voiced line.

#282
IC-07

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Turn the sound off, he'll be silent. Turn it on and he'll talk.
Problem solved, everyone is happy.

Modifié par IC-07, 30 juillet 2013 - 07:57 .


#283
Shevy

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IC-07 wrote...

Turn the sound off, he'll be silent. Turn it on and he'll talk.
Problem solved, everyone is happy.


Not even close...

#284
I Am Robot

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Malsumis wrote...

JediHealerCosmin wrote...
For this game, yes, it's useless. But BioWare is known for listening to their consumer's oppinion and sometimes implementing things in later games.


Bio does it's own thing, if it happens to match with some fans requests so be it.

I much prefer a silent PC to voiced, but there is a time when you must accept reality. Bioware are enamoured with the 'cinematic experience', as long as this infatuation continues, voiced PC will be what bioware goes with.

If you want an RPG you go to inxile(WL2/Torment) or Obsidian(P:E).

If you want a cinematic story with RPG elements, you go to Bioware.


since when is a silent PC a requirement for an rpg game? Since you started bending genre boundaries to your liking and throwing them around loosely?

#285
Vapaa

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Strangely, I don't mind a silent protagonist in a Bethesda game (including the recent Fallout games), because it's in first-person view so I don't see the protagonist

It becomes jarring in DAO were the camera shows our character being as emotional as a piece of cardbord with dead fish's eyes, DAO is already a cinematic RPG, but without the voiced protagonist, it's a bad middleground

Modifié par Vapaä, 30 juillet 2013 - 12:15 .


#286
Fast Jimmy

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Many recent comments in this thread prove why Bioware shouldn't have put the voiced protagonist in DA2.

Not because it was good, bad or indifferent, but because it was a change. Some players who loved the old way of doing things and the freedom it gave are suddenly jilted by the new way. The new players are then threatened by any suggested changes to make the new feature more palatable to the fans of the old (like the negative response many DA2 fans gave at hearing the dominant tone is going to be gone).

The voiced protagonist isn't a simple feature - it is a design philosophy about how you want to create your RPG, down to its core. It is just as radical a change as changing Splinter Cell, a series about sneaking and stealth, into a FPS where you now down hundreds of enemies without batting an eye.

The genie is out of the bottle now, obviously, so Bioware is in a weird limbo where they are trying to make everyone as happy as possible while also sticking with their own wants as developers, but I still think it was a mistake to change course mid-series.

Just like if you suddenly couldn't choose your gender in ME3, but could only play male, despite the option being present up to that point in the series. It would be jarring to many, yet many others wouldn't care. And it could even allow them to make the character more "real" by halving the VA budget and tailoring the experience to being all from the male perspective. Sure, you might lose some female gamers or gamers who are all about choice... but maybe the more polished product would sell better?

But DA2 did not sell half as well as DA:O, for what reasons, we don't know. But the loss of freedom for "more personality" found in a voiced protagonist could possibly be one of those reasons.

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 30 juillet 2013 - 01:52 .


#287
Vapaa

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Fast Jimmy wrote...

Just like if you suddenly couldn't choose your gender in ME3, but could only play male, despite the option being present up to that point in the series. 


You can't compare that to the voicied protagonist, because ME keeps the same protagonist so the protagonist HAVE to be consistent through the game

#288
Fast Jimmy

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Vapaä wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Just like if you suddenly couldn't choose your gender in ME3, but could only play male, despite the option being present up to that point in the series. 


You can't compare that to the voicied protagonist, because ME keeps the same protagonist so the protagonist HAVE to be consistent through the game


That hasn't stopped other games from doing such things. The Ultima series originally was all male, switched to offering the option to play a female, and then reverted back before the end. All with the same protagonist and many with imported save files. 

Or how about if ME removed which class you were? The game scarcely reacted if you were a Sentinel or a Vanguard, so it is strictly a matter of choice. If every one was forced to be a soldier to tell a better story, do people think that would have gone over well?

#289
Vapaa

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Fast Jimmy wrote...

That hasn't stopped other games from doing such things.


That doesn't matter, my point is: changing the gender option halfway through ME, is a much (MUCH) bigger change than the voiced protagonist halway through DAO

#290
Fast Jimmy

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Vapaä wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

That hasn't stopped other games from doing such things.


That doesn't matter, my point is: changing the gender option halfway through ME, is a much (MUCH) bigger change than the voiced protagonist halway through DAO


...to you. 

To others, changing to a voice makes the game no longer their character at all. It makes it no longer even an RPG, since they cannot effectively role play in their role playing game, due to not having 100% clarity on what "their" character is going to say, do or think at any given time. 

Thats why Bioware shouldn't have done it in the first place - just like they shouldn't have( and didn't) removed the gender option.

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 30 juillet 2013 - 03:50 .


#291
WingsandRings

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Fast Jimmy wrote...

Vapaä wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

That hasn't stopped other games from doing such things.


That doesn't matter, my point is: changing the gender option halfway through ME, is a much (MUCH) bigger change than the voiced protagonist halway through DAO


...to you. 

To others, changing to a voice makes the game no longer their character at all. It makes it no longer even an RPG, since they cannot effectively role play in their role playing game, due to not having 100% clarity on what "their" character is going to say, do or think at any given time. 

Thats why Bioware shouldn't have done it in the first place - just like they shouldn't have( and didn't) removed the gender option.


Removing a gender option fundamentally limits gameplay and takes away options that were once available. I'm a little confused as to how having a voiced protagonist does the same thing. It's not as thought having a voiced PC sent our dialogue options from 3+ to 1; the number of dialogue options are basically the same. And I agree with the person above who said DA:O was bizarre when it would cut to your PC staring blankly while supposedly "talking." And I'm unsure how a voiced PC takes away "clarity on what 'their' character is going to say, do or think"  since the dialogue wheel with the "intent" icons has simultaneously made gamers angry because it's made it TOO obvious what the PC was thinking and (potentially) what the reaction would be.

Finally, saying that a business shouldn't do something because people don't like change is ludicrous -- already games, movies, TV shows, etc barely stray from tried and true formulas. If they limited it even more, it wouldn't be long before everything was exactly the same. (Hell, that's already happening in the movie industry -- everything's a sequel now because they're too afraid to take risks. Who here is loving that?)

I think the actual point is: Bioware can't win. If they keep something the same, people complain that they didn't go new and different enough and that ruined everything. If they change something, people complain that it's not the same and that ruined everything.

Modifié par WingsandRings, 30 juillet 2013 - 04:08 .


#292
Fast Jimmy

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Removing a gender option fundamentally limits gameplay and takes away options that were once available. I'm a little confused as to how having a voiced protagonist does the same thing. It's not as thought having a voiced PC sent our dialogue options from 3+ to 1; the number of dialogue options are basically the same. And I agree with the person above who said DA:O was bizarre when it would cut to your PC staring blankly while supposedly "talking." And I'm unsure how a voiced PC takes away "clarity on what 'their' character is going to say, do or think" since the dialogue wheel with the "intent" icons has simultaneously made gamers angry because it's made it TOO obvious what the PC was thinking and (potentially) what the reaction would be.


Gender, in the ME series especially (less so in the DA one, but still much the case) has incredibly little effect on options, gameplay or content. Romance is one of the very few arenas where this comes into play, and even then, those were limited, as the vast swath of romanceable characters are "player" sexual.

There are very few examples of characters mentioning or reacting to gender. There are no examples where it affects actual gameplay (gender affecting stats, abilities or equipment limitations). It is, by and large, strictly a role-playing mechanism.

The same is true of the voice. It's inclusion helps some immerse themselves in the experience, where they are able to watch the personality of the protagonist come out. It's inclusion hurts others and makes it impossible for them to play.

Say my character does not believe in the Maker, for instance. They believe in the Old Tevinter gods. With the silent protagonist, there are no options expressing belief in this BUT all dialogue is clearly laid out, so I know, word for word, what my character will say, so I can be sure to NOT express belief in the Maker, or the Elven pantheon, or the Dwarven Paragons, etc.

With the paraphrase system of the voice protagonist, I can choose the tone, but not the words. By choosing a diomatic tone after you mother's death in DA2, the paraphrase says something along the lines of "she is at peace" but your character actually says "She is with the Maker now." Suddenly, the character I've been playing has just violated one of their core, tenet beliefs and I, as the player, bad no idea that would happen, let alone any control over it.

Paraphrases aside, there are many instances of Auto-dialogue, where the character acts or says something with zero input from the player. Again, in DA2, a dialogue option has a scene where Isabella and Aveline go at each other's throats, angrily insulting one another, when Hawke jumps in, apologetically, saying "hey, everyone, let's all just take it easy!" That violates a character mold I could be playing where I would not care about the two fighting, or would be too timid to try and break things up, or would strongly agree with one over another of a number of other scenarios. Bioware says that Hawke must hop in sheepishly for the lulz, though. So it becomes their control over the character over mine. Again, harmful to role-playing.

Lastly, even the thing we get to control the most in DA2's dialogue, the tone, is incredibly volatile. Diplomatic can range from uber-hero/chivalry to spineless swimpering. Sarcasm can range from hilariously funny to disturbingly macabre, on the border of sociopathic. And aggressive can engage from cold smoldering contempt to genocidal rage... all with the exact same icon. I don't know if I am going to hurl and insult or hurl a dagger at someone. I don't know if I'll make a bad joke or say something that will sound like I need professional therapy. And I don't know if I'll say something "Save the day... EXCELSIOR!!!" or "but pleaaaaaase, guys, let's just try not to be so evil, okay?"

Was every choice this schizophrenic? No. But all it takes is one mess up and suddenly you be one fearful of it happening with EVERY dialogue choice. You have no clue and are flying blindly in the dialogue darkness, with no sense of control on your character and more just a passive role, watching the "cool" character Bioware has written for you to through the motions of the adventure.


That, to me and many, is far more of a violation of a game's experience than whether or not the face and voice of a character are female. Especially in the small, nearly insignificant way Bioware handles gender.

The thing is? I know that's my opinion. And I know that there are many who would cry foul if gender was removed. But I do know both are important to the overall fanbase and removing he role-playing abilities of either group (in a role-playing game series) is a bad move.

Bioware is perfectly fine to make an IP/new series where they try out new ideas and methods. Mass Effect would have been a very different series if Shephard and been silent. But they never did that in their games, so changing mid-way (just like removing gender mid-way) would have been harmful. Changing the DA series mid-series on such a fundamental role-playing level as adding a standard voice to the protagonist was similarly a bad idea.

#293
Cainhurst Crow

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Silent protaganist are simply the byproduct of a budget saving measure that's become some sort of pseudo-philosophical choice, when really it was only created and sustained so long because of both a lack of resource to spare on voicing the more than 3 times the amount of dialogue of other characters, and a desire to not have to animate facial movement for the protagonist, which is why they all look like ryan gosling from only god forgives and have the emotional range of a gutted, frozen catfish.

It's antiquate and doesn't serve a major purpose outside of giving the old guard something to whine about, and I for one am glad to be ride of it. I'm not a mute, and neither should my character be.

#294
happy_daiz

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Fast Jimmy wrote...

Removing a gender option fundamentally limits gameplay and takes away options that were once available. I'm a little confused as to how having a voiced protagonist does the same thing. It's not as thought having a voiced PC sent our dialogue options from 3+ to 1; the number of dialogue options are basically the same. And I agree with the person above who said DA:O was bizarre when it would cut to your PC staring blankly while supposedly "talking." And I'm unsure how a voiced PC takes away "clarity on what 'their' character is going to say, do or think" since the dialogue wheel with the "intent" icons has simultaneously made gamers angry because it's made it TOO obvious what the PC was thinking and (potentially) what the reaction would be.


Gender, in the ME series especially (less so in the DA one, but still much the case) has incredibly little effect on options, gameplay or content. Romance is one of the very few arenas where this comes into play, and even then, those were limited, as the vast swath of romanceable characters are "player" sexual.

While true, the point we seem to be missing is that it changes the player experience. Maybe it doesn't change the story, whether or not I play as a female, but as a female, I sure as hell want the choice to play as one.

That is all. Image IPB

#295
Fast Jimmy

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happy_daiz wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Removing a gender option fundamentally limits gameplay and takes away options that were once available. I'm a little confused as to how having a voiced protagonist does the same thing. It's not as thought having a voiced PC sent our dialogue options from 3+ to 1; the number of dialogue options are basically the same. And I agree with the person above who said DA:O was bizarre when it would cut to your PC staring blankly while supposedly "talking." And I'm unsure how a voiced PC takes away "clarity on what 'their' character is going to say, do or think" since the dialogue wheel with the "intent" icons has simultaneously made gamers angry because it's made it TOO obvious what the PC was thinking and (potentially) what the reaction would be.


Gender, in the ME series especially (less so in the DA one, but still much the case) has incredibly little effect on options, gameplay or content. Romance is one of the very few arenas where this comes into play, and even then, those were limited, as the vast swath of romanceable characters are "player" sexual.

While true, the point we seem to be missing is that it changes the player experience. Maybe it doesn't change the story, whether or not I play as a female, but as a female, I sure as hell want the choice to play as one.

That is all. Image IPB


And, as a player who likes to think up and play characters "outside of the box," I sure as hell would appreciate the choice to not have the character I try to bring to life say, do or emote things that I do not expect, or want.

So, in that regard, my player experience is seriously hampered by a voiced protagonist. Just like your's is hampered by not being able to play a lady.

My comparison is not to say Bioware should remove the gender option. It is to say that they shouldn't have removed the option of clarity, ambiguity and imagination with implementing the voiced protagonist.

#296
Sylvius the Mad

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Han Shot First wrote...

How does a fully voiced protagonist prevent a player from defining that character's personality?

You're limited to the delivery of each line provided by the voice actor.  With a silent protagonist, each line can be delivered however you'd like.

Even subtle changes are valuable, here, but the voiced line allows no changes at all.

Also, the way BioWare has implemented the voiced line so far has been to hide the actual content of that line from us when making our selection.  As such, we're not actually able to choose what the PC will say (or not say).  What the PC says was never chosen by us, and the PC might say something that directly contradicts some aspect of the personality we have designed.

That never happened with a silent protagonist and full-text dialogue options.  The paraphrases are, frankly, the bigger deal - I can live with the voice (by muting all voices) if I can tell what it is I'm choosing.

So long as there are multiple dialogue options that shouldn't be an issue. On the other hand a character who is not voiced is going to seem to be lacking in personality compared to one that is, as the replies are going to much shorter and missing the emotion you get in a voiced line.

The player creates the emotion.  That's the player's job.

#297
Sylvius the Mad

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Fast Jimmy wrote...

And, as a player who likes to think up and play characters "outside of the box," I sure as hell would appreciate the choice to not have the character I try to bring to life say, do or emote things that I do not expect, or want.

When I first played Mass Effect (and I admit I hadn't followed ME's development at all, because it was a console exclusive, and I don't play console games), I carefully designed my Shepard against type (because I thought that would be fun).  I knew he was some sort of space marine, but I planned him as a very meticulous, and even effeminate man.  He was going to careful and precise in all things, and treat firefights with the same calm detachment with which he would approach a garden party, or afternoon tea.

And the first time Shepard opened his mouth, my character was utterly destroyed.

But I should be able to play either character.  Only when the games allow me to create either kind of PC will the voiced protagonist be acceptable.

#298
Fast Jimmy

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Darth Brotarian wrote...

Silent protaganist are simply the byproduct of a budget saving measure that's become some sort of pseudo-philosophical choice, when really it was only created and sustained so long because of both a lack of resource to spare on voicing the more than 3 times the amount of dialogue of other characters, and a desire to not have to animate facial movement for the protagonist, which is why they all look like ryan gosling from only god forgives and have the emotional range of a gutted, frozen catfish.

It's antiquate and doesn't serve a major purpose outside of giving the old guard something to whine about, and I for one am glad to be ride of it. I'm not a mute, and neither should my character be.


Not true. We had Mass Effect coming out with a voiced protagonist within six months of DA:O being released. Obviously, the technology was there. Games still come out today that have the silent protagonist, of note is Bethesda games like Skyrim and Fallout: New Vegas and also a game like Kingdoms of Amalur. 

It does save money, you are correct... money that is used to make these games intricate, detailed and filled with characters. As opposed to a DA2, which has a city full of statues that never move or speak, minus the 15 or 20 people in the city you can actually interact with. And, even then, you can only interact in the most scripted of ways.

The above listed games do often lack a bit of soul and depth, which I will agree with. But Bioware was able to deliver that deep character and story along with the much more wide freedom of a silent protagonist in DA:O. It was truly an amazing balance. 

As this thread has discussed numerous times now, saddling the entire game with a voiced protagonist brings up a myriad of obstacles, questions and challenges that have, to date, not been anywhere near answerable by Bioware or any other developer in how to best handle that player control with a voice that constantly puts its own inflection, intent and beliefs in every response. 

For you, it may seem antiquated. But to others who have seen this level of control blossom from its most basic infancy in games to something that can truly be unique and amazing and have it, instead, be snuffed out to make a movie instead of a more interactive medium is sad. 



For all the flash, boom, whiz, bang that was DA2's intent, I felt much less connected to the story and intro of Hawke running away from the Blight with its canned dialogue and slapstick combat right out of the gate than I was loading up a game, staring at a black screen with text that read "You awake in a dank, dark cell, staring at a locked door and hearing water drip from the ceiling to the ground. A guard is asleep on a stool in front of you, just barely out of your reach. What do you do?"

To me, Bioware sacrificed some of that soul and depth to add the voice. Just like some feel having no detail or reaction in a Bethesda game makes the experience feel hollow, having a character that you feel you have zero say in, just another NPC with a controllable tone, causes me to feel zero connection and worth to "my" character.

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 30 juillet 2013 - 05:55 .


#299
Tvorceskiy

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People complain that a voiced protagonist prevents them from delivering their lines how they want to?

In my opinion, how is that even possible?

In DAO you could choose whatever line you wanted, for example choosing 'I'm sorry' in response to Alistair's loss of Duncan. In your head your character could be saying it with a ****-eating grin and dripping with sarcasm but that doesn't change how Alistair reacts to it; he reacts as if what you said was sincere. If your character had actually said it the way you 'wanted' to he'd most likely react poorly.

So how is having a voiced PC any different? A voiced PC can actually speak in a tone of voice, and thanks to the dialogue wheel you know whether it will be sarcastic, sincere, or down right rude and you know how the other character will react.

For a lot of people having a voiced PC helps with the immersion process, and if you dislike it then mute the voices and stick with the captions. You don't HAVE to listen to the voices if you don't want to.

#300
Fast Jimmy

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Tvorceskiy wrote...

People complain that a voiced protagonist prevents them from delivering their lines how they want to?

In my opinion, how is that even possible?

In DAO you could choose whatever line you wanted, for example choosing 'I'm sorry' in response to Alistair's loss of Duncan. In your head your character could be saying it with a ****-eating grin and dripping with sarcasm but that doesn't change how Alistair reacts to it; he reacts as if what you said was sincere. If your character had actually said it the way you 'wanted' to he'd most likely react poorly.

So how is having a voiced PC any different? A voiced PC can actually speak in a tone of voice, and thanks to the dialogue wheel you know whether it will be sarcastic, sincere, or down right rude and you know how the other character will react.

For a lot of people having a voiced PC helps with the immersion process, and if you dislike it then mute the voices and stick with the captions. You don't HAVE to listen to the voices if you don't want to.


A mute button does nothing. If I hit mute everytime my character speaks, I'm still expressing belief in the Maker when I didn't mean to, or am making sadistic jokes about dead bodies flopping around in the street when I meant to lighten the mood.

And... I'll put on my Sylvius the Mad hat here... how is Allistair's reaction any reflection of the intent of my character? I could say sorry with a shirt eating grin and he could not have noticed it. He could be so heartbroken, he could not even care. He could have thought I was smiling to try and cheer him up. There's a million ways I can interpret the situation to where the NPC, a character that is not mine, reacts to something in a way I had not intended.

It is when the PC... MY character... acts, talks and behaves in ways that I can't control that things are 100% broken. There's no other word for it. If the PC, the Player Character, cannot be controlled by the player to the point where I even know what is going to be said... then that is broken. Hence, the voiced protagonist breaks the game in many respects. 

There are snafus or points of confusion with the slient PC. With the voiced one, my own character comes out and tells me, as the player, that I was wrong or misunderstood. That is a fail.

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 30 juillet 2013 - 06:23 .