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[Azaron Nightblade]

Since spirits seem to be based on virtues, similar to how demons are based on sins, what kind of spirit do you think he is?
So far we've seen Justice, and I think it was mentioned somewhere that Wynne's was Compassion - though I'm not entirely sure if that was anywhere official.

[thats1evildude]

Wynne said she thought the spirit keeping her alive was a Spirit of Faith. Which makes sense, seeing as it was able to steamroll a powerful pride demon in the Fade.

Cole might be a Spirit of Compassion.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 04 juillet 2013 - 06:20 .

[Catroi]

isnt there also the spirit of strength (or was it honor?) in the Harrowing of the Mage's origin?

edit: my bad it was Valor

Modifié par Catroi, 04 juillet 2013 - 06:25 .

[Azaron Nightblade]

thats1evildude wrote...

Wynne said she thought the spirit keeping her alive was a Spirit of Faith. Which makes sense, seeing as it was able to steamroll a powerful pride demon in the Fade.

Cole might be a Spirit of Compassion.

Yeah, her's was Faith - not sure where I got the idea of Compassion.
And you're right, Cole's might be Compassion instead, though it also crossed my mind that it might be another Justice spirit - but that's mostly based on the book's ending where Cole appears before Lambert to remind him there once was a Cole after all, and to give him his due.

[thats1evildude]

I suspect "Cole" was simply a Spirit of Compassion that came to the real living person and tried to comfort him. When he died, the spirit started to believe it was Cole, as spirits are often confused by the waking world.

"I'm an insect who dreamed he was a man, and loved it. But now the dream is over, and the insect is awake."

Modifié par thats1evildude, 04 juillet 2013 - 06:52 .

[Azaron Nightblade]

thats1evildude wrote...

I suspect "Cole" was simply a Spirit of Compassion that came to the real living person and tried to comfort him. When he died, the spirit started to believe it was Cole, as spirits are often confused by the waking world.

"I'm an insect who dreamed he was a man, and loved it. But now the dream is over, and the insect is awake."

Yeah, that would make sense - his experience in the real world has changed the spirit, similar to how Justice changes because of his exposure to Anders.
Also, +1 for the classic Jeff Goldblum quote. 

[keightdee]

I remember Gaider saying somewhere that were planning on adding a few more spirit classes in DA:I. I believe Cole was a spirit of Despair.

[Firky]

I don't understand how spirits work.

Like, justice was warped into vengeance. I guess I can see how Cole might have a compassion spirit which then gets warped into a kind of a compassionate killing thing. Well, apart from at the end where he appears to kill for a different reason. (?)

I don't think spirits adhere to normal "moral" rules, anyway. But, did Wynne's spirit ever warp into something? I can't really recall.

Edit: Maybe there's some kind of irony about having enough faith to be alive, even though you're actually dead. Or something.

Modifié par Firky, 05 juillet 2013 - 12:00 .

[Azaron Nightblade]

Firky wrote...

I don't understand how spirits work.

Like, justice was warped into vengeance. I guess I can see how Cole might have a compassion spirit which then gets warped into a kind of a compassionate killing thing. Well, apart from at the end where he appears to kill for a different reason. (?)

I don't think spirits adhere to normal "moral" rules, anyway. But, did Wynne's spirit ever warp into something? I can't really recall.

Edit: Maybe there's some kind of irony about having enough faith to be alive, even though you're actually dead. Or something.

Wynne's never warped as far as I know.
I'm going to guess it's because she was pretty balanced as a person, compared to Anders with his deep-seated issues.
And the "mercy killings" would make sense for Cole if he was a Compassion/Mercy spirit - he looked into their eyes each time and saw that they wanted release from their torment, the slowly rotting away in cold, dark cell until they were to be executed or made tranquil.
It'd also work with Despair, one could argue that's what drew him to them to begin with.

Modifié par Azaron Nightblade, 05 juillet 2013 - 12:44 .

[Rylor Tormtor]

Some interesting discussion here. Spirits and their demon counterparts seem to be based on a binary medieval European metaphysical system, and the theory that Cole is a warped compassion spirit is a fun one.

I wonder if the PC might have the opportunity to commune/bond with a fade spirit, and the flavour of the spirit (i.e. positive [justice] or negative [vengeance]) could be based on previous character actions or responses.

[Danny Boy 7]

I think Cole is a spirit of mercy. Everything he does seems to be a way to protect a mage from the fate of the real Cole and euthanasia of a perfectly healthy person is sort of a corruption of mercy.

[twilekaoi]

Danny Boy 7 wrote...

I think Cole is a spirit of mercy. Everything he does seems to be a way to protect a mage from the fate of the real Cole and euthanasia of a perfectly healthy person is sort of a corruption of mercy.

I think mercy is a sort of unconditional love that extends to an enemy when you are in a position of power over the individual... i.e., the Archon and Andraste.

Compassion is more of an emotional or understanding response to the needs of others, and even at his/her own peril, those needs will be addressed.

[Danny Boy 7]

twilekaoi wrote...

Danny Boy 7 wrote...

I think Cole is a spirit of mercy. Everything he does seems to be a way to protect a mage from the fate of the real Cole and euthanasia of a perfectly healthy person is sort of a corruption of mercy.

I think mercy is a sort of unconditional love that extends to an enemy when you are in a position of power over the individual... i.e., the Archon and Andraste.

Compassion is more of an emotional or understanding response to the needs of others, and even at his/her own peril, those needs will be addressed.

I agree with your definition of compassion, though I'm not entirely sure if I agree with the mercy part than again how the word applies to us could be totally different. 

I think mercy applies to having strength over anyone and simply not wanting to prolong any pain or suffering. though at the same time I don't think they're mutually exclusive. 

At any rate Cole seems to be an anomaly in the Thedosian spirit world. He's not a corpse as far as I remember and he shows characteristics of both a demon and spirit. Not to mention that for a while he was also invisible to almost everyone. 

[Azaron Nightblade]

Danny Boy 7 wrote...

At any rate Cole seems to be an anomaly in the Thedosian spirit world. He's not a corpse as far as I remember and he shows characteristics of both a demon and spirit. Not to mention that for a while he was also invisible to almost everyone. 

He's similar to the "Shades" we fight in game - a spirit that has manifested itself without a host body, probably a fairly powerful one at that.
When he was ambushing those Templars with Leliana his abilities were outright scary.

[David Gaider]

Firky wrote...
But, did Wynne's spirit ever warp into something? I can't really recall.

The corruption of Faith is Pride. Whether Wynne's spirit was ever corrupted is up to speculation, I suppose.

[Iakus]

Danny Boy 7 wrote...

At any rate Cole seems to be an anomaly in the Thedosian spirit world. He's not a corpse as far as I remember and he shows characteristics of both a demon and spirit. Not to mention that for a while he was also invisible to almost everyone. 

Cole seems to demonstrate we don't know as much about fade spirits as we think we do.  The line between demon and spirit is probably more blurred than most mages think.

His invisibility is especially unusual.  And probably cause for concern if that's a common trait.

I do wonder, though, can spirits be corrupted into differnt forms of demons?  I mean, if a spirit of Justice can be twisted into a spirit of Vengeance, could it be corrupted instead into a demon of, say Cruelty?  Rage?  

Similarly, an a demon be redeemed and turned back into a regular fade spirit?  Spirits are hihgly changeable, after all.   

[Azaron Nightblade]

iakus wrote...

Cole seems to demonstrate we don't know as much about fade spirits as we think we do.  The line between demon and spirit is probably more blurred than most mages think.

His invisibility is especially unusual.  And probably cause for concern if that's a common trait.

I do wonder, though, can spirits be corrupted into differnt forms of demons?  I mean, if a spirit of Justice can be twisted into a spirit of Vengeance, could it be corrupted instead into a demon of, say Cruelty?  Rage?  

Similarly, an a demon be redeemed and turned back into a regular fade spirit?  Spirits are hihgly changeable, after all.   

Rhys pretty much always saw him, and he was sensitive to seeing spirits.
Which makes me think he might have moved in an "in between space" - some kind of border where the Fade and the real world touch.
I agree on the not knowing all that much about them and I'm curious about the new spirits that they said were coming in DA:I.

[Danny Boy 7]

Azaron Nightblade wrote...

Danny Boy 7 wrote...

At any rate Cole seems to be an anomaly in the Thedosian spirit world. He's not a corpse as far as I remember and he shows characteristics of both a demon and spirit. Not to mention that for a while he was also invisible to almost everyone. 

He's similar to the "Shades" we fight in game - a spirit that has manifested itself without a host body, probably a fairly powerful one at that.
When he was ambushing those Templars with Leliana his abilities were outright scary.

He does show quite a few similarities with spirits and demons, but his appearance always gets to me. He appears as a human which neither spirits or demons have been able to do unless they possessed someone *outside the fade I mean*

[Face of Evil]

Filament wrote...

Does that make Faith the top of the "good spirit" hierarchy too?

World of Thedas seemed to suggest that.

[Milky Way]

David Gaider wrote...

Firky wrote...
But, did Wynne's spirit ever warp into something? I can't really recall.

The corruption of Faith is Pride. Whether Wynne's spirit was ever corrupted is up to speculation, I suppose.

I've always wondered: If a spirit can be "corrupted," can a demon be "purified?"

[fiveforchaos]

I'm really in favor of a compassion spirit that became corrupted. The last thing it did before Cole tend, and the spirit became confused was try its best to comfort him as he died.

The piece at the end when it starts seeking vengeance against the seeker captain (can't recall his name) doesn't seem to fit the MO of even a corrupted compassion spirit, until you realize that all the people Cole killed, or threatened to kill, had all done some very bad things, including the original Cole himself. I wonder if, from the viewpoint of a corrupted compassion spirit, it is kinder to kill these sorts of people rather than force them to live a life burdened by the atrocities of their past. Considering the pain and suffering that came, in part, from the seeker captain's actions, I can see him potentially fitting this MO.

[Azaron Nightblade]

TriggerWolves wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

Firky wrote...
But, did Wynne's spirit ever warp into something? I can't really recall.

The corruption of Faith is Pride. Whether Wynne's spirit was ever corrupted is up to speculation, I suppose.

I've always wondered: If a spirit can be "corrupted," can a demon be "purified?"

It's an interesting question...
So far from what we've seen it seems that spirits can take on "traits" of whoever they happen to be "possessing" (or rather hitching a ride in) - while demons seem to completely override their hosts and turn them into ravening monsters.
Maybe that's one of the stark contrasts between the two?
A demon will corrupt its host. A spirit will get corrupted by its host.

[Northern Sun]

Filament wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

Firky wrote...
But, did Wynne's spirit ever warp into something? I can't really recall.

The corruption of Faith is Pride. Whether Wynne's spirit was ever corrupted is up to speculation, I suppose.

Does that make Faith the top of the "good spirit" hierarchy too?

Based on World of Thedas, hope is the the most powerful spirit, if I recall correctly. Though faith is up there.