93 réponses à ce sujet

[Fredward]

Cole is a demon. Cole has to be a demon. Like right from the start. We've already had two spirits. We need a demon. The wiki mentions that the difference between the two might actually be little more than semantics and Justice did show us that their moulds aren't immutable BUT I WANT A DEMON DAMMIT.

[Firky]

David Gaider wrote...

Firky wrote...
But, did Wynne's spirit ever warp into something? I can't really recall.

The corruption of Faith is Pride. Whether Wynne's spirit was ever corrupted is up to speculation, I suppose.

Cool insight. Cheers!

I dunno. I think Wynne was a bit opinionated but pretty humble. Which raises the question for me about what exactly it is that corrupts a spirit. The person? The situation?

[ultimatekotorfan]

Azaron Nightblade wrote...

TriggerWolves wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

Firky wrote...
But, did Wynne's spirit ever warp into something? I can't really recall.

The corruption of Faith is Pride. Whether Wynne's spirit was ever corrupted is up to speculation, I suppose.

I've always wondered: If a spirit can be "corrupted," can a demon be "purified?"

It's an interesting question...
So far from what we've seen it seems that spirits can take on "traits" of whoever they happen to be "possessing" (or rather hitching a ride in) - while demons seem to completely override their hosts and turn them into ravening monsters.
Maybe that's one of the stark contrasts between the two?
A demon will corrupt its host. A spirit will get corrupted by its host.

A great example of this is Anders, who corrupts Justice into a spirit of Vengeance through his hatred of templars. I imagine Cole is somewhat similar, but not to the same degree.

My personal theory is that Cole was approached in his cell by a Spirit of Mercy who saw his suffering and decided that killing him before he starved to death would be merciful. This may have been it's first exprerience with a mortal and that made it more empathetic with Cole to the point where it actually became him in a way. It believed it was Cole, but  it's compulsion to exact mercy led it to kill the people he killed.

The only case where this wouldn't make sense is with Seeker Lambert, who he appears to kill more out of a manner of vengeance than mercy. Vengeance is the corruption of Justice, which would imply that the spirit was originally a Justice spirit, but comforting Cole in his last moments doesn't seem to fit the behavior of a Justice spirit. 

[Baelyn]

Danny Boy 7 wrote...

twilekaoi wrote...

Danny Boy 7 wrote...

I think Cole is a spirit of mercy. Everything he does seems to be a way to protect a mage from the fate of the real Cole and euthanasia of a perfectly healthy person is sort of a corruption of mercy.

I think mercy is a sort of unconditional love that extends to an enemy when you are in a position of power over the individual... i.e., the Archon and Andraste.

Compassion is more of an emotional or understanding response to the needs of others, and even at his/her own peril, those needs will be addressed.

I agree with your definition of compassion, though I'm not entirely sure if I agree with the mercy part than again how the word applies to us could be totally different. 

I think mercy applies to having strength over anyone and simply not wanting to prolong any pain or suffering. though at the same time I don't think they're mutually exclusive. 

At any rate Cole seems to be an anomaly in the Thedosian spirit world. He's not a corpse as far as I remember and he shows characteristics of both a demon and spirit. Not to mention that for a while he was also invisible to almost everyone. 

As it was always defined to me: Mercy is not giving someone something they deserve (i.e. punishment) and Grace is giving someone something they don't deserve (i.e. blessings, favor, etc)

As for Cole, wasn't the overwhelming theme of the book that no one really knows everything about the Fade and the spirit world? That there could be things that exist there that are not even known or "classified" yet? I believe this to apply to Cole. No one is sure what he is yet, especially not him.

Modifié par Baelyn, 05 juillet 2013 - 12:09 .

[Rylor Tormtor]

An interesting twist would be the reverse, what if Cole is something like a demon that is redeemed, which explains why he was always struggling with his baser instincts. A demon of despair or some such finds a dying mage, and while feeding upon him is flooded with all the other emotions and it actually changes the nature of the demon.

[legbamel]

That would be interesting, if Cole had started as a demon of fear or despair and the boy's situation changed it, introducing compassion and mercy into it. When it confronts Lambert it's a combination of its original nature and the things it has learned from the tower's prisoners that guide its actions.

[Beerfish]

So what is the difference between a spirit and a demon. I was under the impression that spirits wee supposed to be benevolent creatures (if you can call them that) from the fade. Demons malevolent.

Cole is far from benevolent.

[Baelyn]

Beerfish wrote...

Cole is far from benevolent.

How so? Just playing devil's advocate here, but he didn't kill anyone who didn't wish to die more than anything in the first place.

I think spirits/demons are the same thing. A spirit is an embodiment of a element, whether that be the element of Faith, or the element of Pride. They follow that element to its end and so we define them as "good" or "evil" based on whether this element is considered good or bad. A hunger demon consuming people is only embodying the element that defines it. We term that "evil" because we view it as morally wrong, whereas they view it as simply existing.

[legbamel]

I more got the impression that Cole convinced people that dying was better than facing what came next. That's the root of my supposition that it may have begun as a Despair demon. It may have fed on the despair od those he encountered in the dungeon and then Cole changed it.

[Beerfish]

Baelyn wrote...

Beerfish wrote...

Cole is far from benevolent.

How so? Just playing devil's advocate here, but he didn't kill anyone who didn't wish to die more than anything in the first place.

I think spirits/demons are the same thing. A spirit is an embodiment of a element, whether that be the element of Faith, or the element of Pride. They follow that element to its end and so we define them as "good" or "evil" based on whether this element is considered good or bad. A hunger demon consuming people is only embodying the element that defines it. We term that "evil" because we view it as morally wrong, whereas they view it as simply existing.

All the people who 'wished to die' he had influence over them.  He murdered people to maintian his existence.  These were no mercy killings.

[Beerfish]

legbamel wrote...

I more got the impression that Cole convinced people that dying was better than facing what came next. That's the root of my supposition that it may have begun as a Despair demon. It may have fed on the despair od those he encountered in the dungeon and then Cole changed it.

Well said.

[Baelyn]

Beerfish wrote...

Baelyn wrote...

Beerfish wrote...

Cole is far from benevolent.

How so? Just playing devil's advocate here, but he didn't kill anyone who didn't wish to die more than anything in the first place.

I think spirits/demons are the same thing. A spirit is an embodiment of a element, whether that be the element of Faith, or the element of Pride. They follow that element to its end and so we define them as "good" or "evil" based on whether this element is considered good or bad. A hunger demon consuming people is only embodying the element that defines it. We term that "evil" because we view it as morally wrong, whereas they view it as simply existing.

All the people who 'wished to die' he had influence over them.  He murdered people to maintian his existence.  These were no mercy killings.

I don't believe it is ever said for certain that he made them wish for death or influenced them to think this way. I believe this to be an assumption on your part.

[twilekaoi]

Baelyn wrote...

Beerfish wrote...

Baelyn wrote...

Beerfish wrote...

Cole is far from benevolent.

How so? Just playing devil's advocate here, but he didn't kill anyone who didn't wish to die more than anything in the first place.

I think spirits/demons are the same thing. A spirit is an embodiment of a element, whether that be the element of Faith, or the element of Pride. They follow that element to its end and so we define them as "good" or "evil" based on whether this element is considered good or bad. A hunger demon consuming people is only embodying the element that defines it. We term that "evil" because we view it as morally wrong, whereas they view it as simply existing.

All the people who 'wished to die' he had influence over them.  He murdered people to maintian his existence.  These were no mercy killings.

I don't believe it is ever said for certain that he made them wish for death or influenced them to think this way. I believe this to be an assumption on your part.

If I remember correctly, during chapter 1:

[after revealing his dagger to a newly imprisoned, distressed mage girl]
Cole: [touching the girls cheek] "I can make it go away. The pain, the fear. I can make it quick. You don't have to stay here and see what they have in store for you."

Cole would've killed the girl anyway in my opinion, with or without her consent-- though I use the word consent lightly since whenever Cole does that look int my eyes bit, I can't help but think it's some sort of fade'ish blood magic'ish hypnotic reflex he does. The girl only realized what he was during an instance of it, for example.

As far as I'm concerned, he killed those mages in the interest of his own selfish needs. Not to mention his obsession with Rhys (who isn't the sharpest knife in the drawer either) bugged the hell out of me. I feel sympathy for the original Cole, but not the spirit/demon.

I hope it shows up in DAI so my Inquisitor can send it back to the Fade.

[Baelyn]

twilekaoi wrote...

If I remember correctly, during chapter 1:

[after revealing his dagger to a newly imprisoned, distressed mage girl]
Cole: [touching the girls cheek] "I can make it go away. The pain, the fear. I can make it quick. You don't have to stay here and see what they have in store for you."

Cole would've killed the girl anyway in my opinion, with or without her consent-- though I use the word consent lightly since whenever Cole does that look int my eyes bit, I can't help but think it's some sort of fade'ish blood magic'ish hypnotic reflex he does. The girl only realized what he was during an instance of it, for example.

As far as I'm concerned, he killed those mages in the interest of his own selfish needs. Not to mention his obsession with Rhys (who isn't the sharpest knife in the drawer either) bugged the hell out of me. I feel sympathy for the original Cole, but not the spirit/demon.

I hope it shows up in DAI so my Inquisitor can send it back to the Fade.

But it is also said that the reason people can see him is because they want to die in the first place, implying that Cole is not influencing them in either direction. Their desire for death draws him to them.

[Psykohamster]

keightdee wrote...

I remember Gaider saying somewhere that were planning on adding a few more spirit classes in DA:I. I believe Cole was a spirit of Despair.

There's no way Cole is a spirit of Despair.  A spirit of despair wouldn't have performed mercy killings, it would have left them alive to feed off of their despair.

[legbamel]

I take his being visible to them as a sign that they are vulnerable to his influence rather than actually having made a rational decision that death is preferable.

[twilekaoi]

Baelyn wrote...

twilekaoi wrote...

If I remember correctly, during chapter 1:

[after revealing his dagger to a newly imprisoned, distressed mage girl]
Cole: [touching the girls cheek] "I can make it go away. The pain, the fear. I can make it quick. You don't have to stay here and see what they have in store for you."

Cole would've killed the girl anyway in my opinion, with or without her consent-- though I use the word consent lightly since whenever Cole does that look int my eyes bit, I can't help but think it's some sort of fade'ish blood magic'ish hypnotic reflex he does. The girl only realized what he was during an instance of it, for example.

As far as I'm concerned, he killed those mages in the interest of his own selfish needs. Not to mention his obsession with Rhys (who isn't the sharpest knife in the drawer either) bugged the hell out of me. I feel sympathy for the original Cole, but not the spirit/demon.

I hope it shows up in DAI so my Inquisitor can send it back to the Fade.

But it is also said that the reason people can see him is because they want to die in the first place, implying that Cole is not influencing them in either direction. Their desire for death draws him to them.

It's possible Cole is just attracted to a person being in despair from his own perspective -- which doesn't hold much, judging how childlike he is as evidence from both by his actions and his POV -- and he inadvertently shuts off his influence [edit: invisibility] to do the deed (look into my eyes bit), or he just doesn't care. It could also be a natural reaction to fuel his blood magic, similar to how a predator is attracted to his prey.

Also, Cole's whole existence is based on influence. To quote Lambert:

[on the Litany of Adralla] "It was created by a magister of
Tevinter to dispel demonic influence over the mind. It works on nothing
else."

When Cole told the girl to look into his eyes, it was only until that point where she "realized" Cole was her "deliverance". From my perspective, I didn't get a I Want to Die vibe from her prior to that. More like distress and despair. She even threatened to scream in defense.

Modifié par twilekaoi, 05 juillet 2013 - 07:10 .

[twilekaoi]

Psykohamster wrote...

keightdee wrote...

I remember Gaider saying somewhere that were planning on adding a few more spirit classes in DA:I. I believe Cole was a spirit of Despair.

There's no way Cole is a spirit of Despair.  A spirit of despair wouldn't have performed mercy killings, it would have left them alive to feed off of their despair.

Though it's still heavily implied Cole feeds off of their despair.

[upon stabbing a mage girl while[u] looking into his eyes at his behest[/u]]
"Cole held her close, staring down into her eyes. He drank in every moment as the life ebbed out of her. It was an instant that seemed to stretch out into forever ... and then she was gone."

Granted, this could also be a blood magic thing, but it can go either way.

[Beerfish]

Baelyn wrote...

Beerfish wrote...

Baelyn wrote...

Beerfish wrote...

Cole is far from benevolent.

How so? Just playing devil's advocate here, but he didn't kill anyone who didn't wish to die more than anything in the first place.

I think spirits/demons are the same thing. A spirit is an embodiment of a element, whether that be the element of Faith, or the element of Pride. They follow that element to its end and so we define them as "good" or "evil" based on whether this element is considered good or bad. A hunger demon consuming people is only embodying the element that defines it. We term that "evil" because we view it as morally wrong, whereas they view it as simply existing.

All the people who 'wished to die' he had influence over them.  He murdered people to maintian his existence.  These were no mercy killings.

I don't believe it is ever said for certain that he made them wish for death or influenced them to think this way. I believe this to be an assumption on your part.

Just like the assumption on your part that they all wanted death and he provided it for them.

[Blue Gloves]

What a great discussion! 

Cole is my favorite character from Asunder, and my number one pick for party companion in DAI. (btw Mr. Gaider, if you're still hanging out in the forums, I heart Asunder!  Thank you for writing a story from which I derived a huge amount of enjoyment. I'm a total book worm, and even though I liked Stolen Throne and Calling for the exploration of Maric, Loghain, Rowan, Duncan, and Fiona- I was so enamored with Asunder's story that I read the book twice.)

 Personally, I'm of the Merrill school of thought when it comes to the inhabitants of the Fade:  They're all Spirits; they just have different personalities and characteristics, just like mortals.  I think the different classes of spirits and demons can be equated to the different races of Thedas- ie, all Kossith have many traits in common with
other Kossith, and 90% of them will adhere to racial conventions, but a few will turn out as Tal Vashoth or umm... other. (Like whatever that dude we met in DA2 was.)  Similarly, I think that just because a spirit is a spirit of Justice- it may end up becoming Vengeance, and I believe that, in the right circumstances (purely random example) a Desire Demon might be able to become a spirit of love, or whatever the "good" spirit equivalent is.

 I kinda think that Cole was a despair demon (spirit of despair, whatever) who came to feed off the agonizing end of the real Cole's life and became confused by the mortal world.  When he began to understand the all the awful experiences that comprised all of Cole's miserable life, he started to warp into... something else.  Spirit of Compassion, maybe?  He clearly shows the capacity for change- he begins to kill other mortals who are already scared and seeking death, but after he gains an understanding of Rhys' morality and what behaviour Rhys might
consider to be "bad", he doesn't kill the ex-Tranquil elf.  He also begins to evidence a conscience as he develops a genuine bond with Rhys, whom he considers a friend and a kind of lifeline.  During the events of the book,
I think we are seeing his evolution from the original form of Despair demon into whatever else it is that he has become by the time he murders Lambert.

Guess we'll find out more as we progress with the DA games!

Modifié par Blue Gloves, 05 juillet 2013 - 08:36 .

[Fredward]

Psykohamster wrote...

keightdee wrote...

I remember Gaider saying somewhere that were planning on adding a few more spirit classes in DA:I. I believe Cole was a spirit of Despair.

There's no way Cole is a spirit of Despair.  A spirit of despair wouldn't have performed mercy killings, it would have left them alive to feed off of their despair.

Spirits/demons have the capacity to change their nature post-possession. It's not a one way street, both parties get altered. I also think that Cole is a Despair demon, or was at least. I mean he was just forgotten by the templars in a dark cell and left to die and that isn't even touching how he wound up there in the first place, which was just frickin awful. So I think a demon of Despair found Cole in his cell and possessed him. What he is now though is anyone's guess.

[Firky]

Was Cole possessed in his cell?

I might be misremembering this, but I thought there was something in his nightmare about his father which suggested he was possessed then. Although, I think he killed his father with a knife, not magic.

I can't recall why I thought that. Was it something to do with him being in a very vulnerable situation that the demon/spirit could take advantage of? Also, if he were possessed before murdering his father, maybe that's part of the pattern.

Not sure though. Was it explicit that it happened in his cell?

[Fredward]

Now that you mention it I also remember something happening with his father that might have been possession-esque behavior. Though I also recall Cole/demon talking about how he found him locked and forgotten in a cell. I'm not sure.

Modifié par Foopydoopydoo, 06 juillet 2013 - 07:49 .

[Firky]

I think maybe I was thinking that Cole was hiding from his father and that that correlated with "the ghost of the spire" being invisible somehow. Like, that the spirit/demon had become used to Cole's hiding and his invisibility had come from there.

(I suppose that could still be true, even if he were possessed later, based on Cole's memories etc.)