93 réponses à ce sujet

[Fredward]

Cole is a beautiful basket case of neuroses. And a good example of ego forces at play. See this is what I think happened, Cole got possessed, doesn't really matter when as long as it's after the whole thing with his father. So Cole has obviously associated hiding with some pretty traumatizing events so unconsciously he uses this fear to justify his killing. He knows killing is wrong but if he can convince himself that something really horrible will happen (he will vanish, disappear, be a ghost etc) if he doesn't and that he doesn't really have a choice he's satisfying both his id and super ego. With defense mechanisms which is bad but whatever.

So where it gets real interesting is figuring out how much this demon (I'm calling it a demon until one of the writers explicitly tell me it isn't [and kill my dreams in the process]) has effected Cole, the person. Is it taking a backseat like with Wynne? Was it an aggresive merger like Anders? Was it a merger but not as volatile as Anders/Justice and there is no meaningful separation between Cole and the demon? Does Cole the Human exist in any meaningful way or just as some vague conscience-like thing buried in a demon?

This is why Cole needs to be a demon. A demon with a conscience is sooooooo much more interesting than a corrupted/confused spirit. There's so much potential angst and pathos with this character not including him would be a crime.

[Mykel54]

Cole is a parasite on the world, it doesn´t matter what kind of bloodsucker he is.

[Boycott Bioware]

David Gaider wrote...
The corruption of Faith is Pride. Whether Wynne's spirit was ever corrupted is up to speculation, I suppose.

Why? Isn't it should be "Arrogance"?

Someone who want justice may turn out to be just want vengeance, someone who is faithful may turn out to be arrogance isn't it? Well, you can say arrogance come's from pride but it is not the process like vengeance, it is a catalyst...justice turn to vengeance is a process, the catalyst is anger

The opposite of Pride is Humble.

And are you saying that demons are actually corrupted spirit? If so....the demons are actually corrupted Maker's children isn't it?

Edit : And that make the Maker is a Spirit too...he stole somone wife and turn her into Broodspiritmother the same way Old Gods stole women to become Broodmother isn't it?

Modifié par Qistina, 06 juillet 2013 - 10:38 .

[The Elder King]

Qistina wrote...

David Gaider wrote...
The corruption of Faith is Pride. Whether Wynne's spirit was ever corrupted is up to speculation, I suppose.

Why? Isn't it should be "Arrogance"?

Someone who want justice may turn out to be just want vengeance, someone who is faithful may turn out to be arrogance isn't it? Well, you can say arrogance come's from pride but it is not the process like vengeance, it is a catalyst...justice turn to vengeance is a process, the catalyst is anger

The opposite of Pride is Humble.

And are you saying that demons are actually corrupted spirit? If so....the demons are actually corrupted Maker's children isn't it?

Edit : And that make the Maker is a Spirit too...he stole somone wife and turn her into Broodspiritmother the same way Old Gods stole women to become Broodmother isn't it?

The Chantry already states that demons are some of the Maker's first children who got corrupted. If the Maker exists, this would be the most logical explanation.
About your theory, Old Gods doesn't steal anything (even if they would, they'd be archdemons at this point). The darskpawn take women to make them broodmother. The Old Gods/archdemons don't breed women
Plus, what kind of "woman" the Maker should've stolen?

[Boycott Bioware]

hhh89 wrote...
About your theory, Old Gods doesn't steal anything (even if they would, they'd be archdemons at this point). The darskpawn take women to make them broodmother. The Old Gods/archdemons don't breed women

"According to Chant of Light the Maker imprison the Olds Gods because of tricking human into worshiping them and teach them magic"- Alistair

From what i understand, the Maker and Old Gods are spirits, they live together, but one day the Old Gods trick human to worship them and teach magic, then the Maker ****** off and imprison the Old Gods

Archdemon is corrupted Old Gods, corrupted by Darkspawns becoming Archdemon. They are dragons isn't it? So Darkspawn corrupting the Spirit of Old God, imprison it into dragons. The Dark Ritual purpose is to trap that Spirit into not yet born child....

It means the Old Gods are SPIRITS...they are not dragons, they just somehow got into dragons by some process.

The Darkspawns are tainted Megisters, i just wonder that they did rape some women in the past and that is why darkspawn are many, but a question rise on genlocks and shrieks, where they come from if the original Darkspawn are Tevinter Magisters?

Anyway, if Old Gods is the opposite of Maker, then Maker should be the opposite of Old Gods, i mean the Old Gods subjects are darkspawns, they steal women, the Maker is the opposite, he did steal someone wife isn't it? It is the same thing just different approach

Edit : The Rage Demon in Alienage is right "There is no Maker, there are demons, yesss"...it is because of Demons=Spirit, they are the same thing, the Maker is Spirit, Old Gods are Spirits too but become Arhdemon, "Archdemon" in my understanding means "The Grand Demon"...same like "Archangel" means "The Grand Angel"

Edit2 : So literally, the is no God in DA world

Plus, what kind of "woman" the Maker should've stolen?

Spirit of Valor look like a Templar, so i guest his mother was a Templar lol

Women like Andraste...Meredith...Leliana....

Modifié par Qistina, 06 juillet 2013 - 11:32 .

[twilekaoi]

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

So where it gets real interesting is figuring out how much this demon (I'm calling it a demon until one of the writers explicitly tell me it isn't [and kill my dreams in the process]) has effected Cole, the person.

It's implied the original Cole died when he was thrown in the dungeon:

[confronting Lambert]
Cole (Demon?): "There was a Cole. You forgot him in that cell, and I heard his cries when no one else would. I went to him and held his hand in the darkness until it was all over. When the Templars found him, they erased everything to hide their shame ... and I was helpless to act." Sorrow, and perhaps even regret, crossed the young man's face, but only for a moment. "I'm not helpless any longer."

Cole is more relative to Kristoff's situation-- in that the Demon takes over Cole's corpse, negating any chance of corruption. It also explains why the demon has vague memories of Cole's past, much like Justice.

Interesting note, maybe a subtle foreshadow but the word sorrow shows up in the following sentence describing Cole's emotion. Sorrow is a synonym for despair.

[legbamel]

Didn't the Maker steal someone's wife: Andraste?

I don't know if the demon took over Cole's corpse or just sort of appropriated his life story/personality. The invisibility thing makes me doubt that there is any human from underlying the Cole in the book.

[Azaron Nightblade]

twilekaoi wrote...

Cole is more relative to Kristoff's situation-- in that the Demon takes over Cole's corpse, negating any chance of corruption. It also explains why the demon has vague memories of Cole's past, much like Justice.

Interesting note, maybe a subtle foreshadow but the word sorrow shows up in the following sentence describing Cole's emotion. Sorrow is a synonym for despair.

I don't think it took it over, I think it was confused for a long time and thought it was Cole, it's only when the Litany is used on it that it realizes it isn't actually Cole - and winds up temporaly banished, or whatever the Litany's effect might be.
When it comes back for revenge on Lambert it knows whatever it really is.  (even if we do)

Modifié par Azaron Nightblade, 06 juillet 2013 - 10:49 .

[Steppenwolf]

David Gaider wrote...

Firky wrote...
But, did Wynne's spirit ever warp into something? I can't really recall.

The corruption of Faith is Pride. Whether Wynne's spirit was ever corrupted is up to speculation, I suppose.

This is extremely interesting to me. Have you guys mapped out all of that stuff? Are all demons corrupted spirits or are some "born" demons?

[twilekaoi]

Azaron Nightblade wrote...

twilekaoi wrote...

Cole is more relative to Kristoff's situation-- in that the Demon takes over Cole's corpse, negating any chance of corruption. It also explains why the demon has vague memories of Cole's past, much like Justice.

Interesting note, maybe a subtle foreshadow but the word sorrow shows up in the following sentence describing Cole's emotion. Sorrow is a synonym for despair.

I don't think it took it over, I think it was confused for a long time and thought it was Cole, it's only when the Litany is used on it that it realizes it isn't actually Cole - and winds up temporaly banished, or whatever the Litany's effect might be.
When it comes back for revenge on Lambert it knows whatever it really is.  (even if we do)

Yeah, anyone who read the book's first 20 chapters would be able to deduct that-- I just didn't want to go into detail over what's already detailed over and over again in Asunder. When I said takes over I assumed people who read the book would realize it'd done so unintentionally.

edit: Wait, are you saying that the demon didn't actually get into Cole's body, but rather impersonated Cole as a physical duplication? It'd have to have taken over Cole, his corpse or otherwise.

Modifié par twilekaoi, 06 juillet 2013 - 10:57 .

[Azaron Nightblade]

twilekaoi wrote...

edit: Wait, are you saying that the demon didn't actually get into Cole's body, but rather impersonated Cole as a physical duplication? It'd have to have taken over Cole, his corpse or otherwise.

Yeah, and that's why it was killing to maintain it's "physical" form - similar to the Shades we fight, spirits/demons that manifested without a host.

[twilekaoi]

Azaron Nightblade wrote...

twilekaoi wrote...

edit: Wait, are you saying that the demon didn't actually get into Cole's body, but rather impersonated Cole as a physical duplication? It'd have to have taken over Cole, his corpse or otherwise.

Yeah, and that's why it was killing to maintain it's "physical" form - similar to the Shades we fight, spirits/demons that manifested without a host.

Hmm, interesting theory-- hadn't thought about that. But what about its ability to manifest parts of Coles memories? I guess it would've been possible if that demon had been with Cole in the fade while he was dreaming, but the vibe I got from its explanation to Lambert was that it first encountered Cole in the dungeon (where the veil is already thin as is).

Modifié par twilekaoi, 06 juillet 2013 - 11:19 .

[Azaron Nightblade]

twilekaoi wrote...

Hmm, interesting theory-- hadn't thought about that. But what about its ability to manifest parts of Coles memories? I guess it would've been possible if that demon had been with Cole in the fade while he was dreaming, but the vibe I got from its explanation to Lambert was that it first encountered Cole in the dungeon (where the veil is already thin as is).

Yeah, I figured it either originally touched his mind in the Fade, or did so when it was drawn to him across the (thinned) Veil. Demons/Spirits often demonstrate that they can access our minds without actually possessing us (and use our hopes and fears to trick us into letting them in completely - and possess the host).

[LinksOcarina]

Well now here is a question then for you.

If Cole is a demon of despair that essentially did what Justice did in Awakening, is it possible he has warped into this spirit? Wouldn't it be more advantageous for Cole to not kill victims and instead feed on them for a long time, or is it like an incubus thing where the rush of murder or suicide gives him more power?

[legbamel]

Desire demons seem to be able to read minds just fine without possessing people. Perhaps despair demons can as well. It would explain how Cole is able to judge people's states of mind.

The idea that he uses these deaths to keep him in this world (out of the Fade) is indeed an interesting one. It would explain his early, unexplained fear that he would disappear without them as a memory of his demon self preserving the situation. I imagine there's a great deal of despair wafting around your average Circle.

[Azaron Nightblade]

legbamel wrote...

Desire demons seem to be able to read minds just fine without possessing people. Perhaps despair demons can as well. It would explain how Cole is able to judge people's states of mind.

The idea that he uses these deaths to keep him in this world (out of the Fade) is indeed an interesting one. It would explain his early, unexplained fear that he would disappear without them as a memory of his demon self preserving the situation. I imagine there's a great deal of despair wafting around your average Circle.

I think all demons can do it.
I believe it was established that Rhys actually did the physical killings while under "Cole's" influence - which seems to suggest Cole wasn't strong enough yet to do it by himself yet, maybe incapable of materializing fully on his own at the time.

[Stella-Arc]

Isn't the opposite of despair hope?

[Avaflame]

Azaron Nightblade wrote...

I believe it was established that Rhys actually did the physical killings while under "Cole's" influence - which seems to suggest Cole wasn't strong enough yet to do it by himself yet, maybe incapable of materializing fully on his own at the time.

That's not what I took from it. It was certainly mentioned as an option, with even Rhys believing that it was true, but I took the final scene with Lambert to show that Cole had been physically manifesting himself the whole time and not possessing Rhys. And also IIRC, he was given the option to "murder" both Pharamond and that girl under the floor in the Keep while Rhys predisposed with other things, though I suppose this doesn't prove anything as Cole does not kill them, perhaps because Rhys isn't available to possess to do it for him. I personally don't believe that though.

EDIT: Also, there's never been any mention of temporary possessions in DA AFAIK. When a human (or other) is possessed, they seem to stay possessed. It's not really a 'get in, get out' kind of deal.

Modifié par Avaflame, 07 juillet 2013 - 04:00 .

[MisterJB]

Avaflame wrote...
EDIT: Also, there's never been any mention of temporary possessions in DA AFAIK. When a human (or other) is possessed, they seem to stay possessed. It's not really a 'get in, get out' kind of deal.

Sure, but we have seen mortals under the command of demons without being directly possessed, the most memorable case being that templar who believe the Desire Demon was his wife. It's not impossible that Cole could have dominated Rhys into commiting the muders without ever possessing him.

[legbamel]

I was left with the impression that Cole was doing the deeds himself, as well, though in truth I don't remember whether it was spelled out in so many words or not.

[JakeOfDiamonds]

The way I see it, Cole was approached by a Spirit of Hope. Hope to escape. Hope to survive. Hope to go quick and painlessly. It was with him until he died. Having had to sit and watch, helpless to do anything, the Spirit of Hope was corrupted, and it became one of the new types of Demons that David Gaider said we can look forward to. In this particular case, a Despair Demon.

Why is this awesome?

Because if Hope is at the top of the hierarchy of spirits, then a Despair Demon is going to be incredibly, incredibly powerful too. I'm not sure if it was confirmed anywhere, so I took some creative licensing with where to pair Justice and Compassion. I assume Valor and Sloth go hand in hand because Sloth is always shown to be sort of meek, manipulative, a master of disguise, whereas Valor is bold, determined, eager to get involved, etc. Compassion is putting someone else's needs before yourself, so I paired it with Desire, the opposite. And that left us with;

Tier 1: Rage & Justice
Tier 2: Sloth & Valor
Tier 3: Desire & Compassion
Tier 4: Pride & Faith
Tier 5: Despair & Hope

From having read the book, Cole is a phenomenal character, and I sincerely hope he plays some sort of role in Dragon Age: Inquisition. I remember finishing the book, and once I got past that little epilogue, I was like "Cole would make for one awesome/deep companion." So that's what I'm holding out hope for, haha.

[MadCat221]

David Gaider wrote...

Firky wrote...
But, did Wynne's spirit ever warp into something? I can't really recall.

The corruption of Faith is Pride. Whether Wynne's spirit was ever corrupted is up to speculation, I suppose.

Though you have the Word of God in your favor, I argue that the corruption of Faith is Zeal.  Like how Vengeance is Justice gone too far, I think Zeal would be Faith gone too far.

Modifié par MadCat221, 07 juillet 2013 - 08:38 .

[thats1evildude]

I think rage is the opposite of valour and sloth (apathy) is the opposite of justice. Likewise, hunger is the opposite of compassion, as it is greed and gluttony rolled into one.

[legbamel]

JakeOfDiamonds wrote...

The way I see it, Cole was approached by a Spirit of Hope. Hope to escape. Hope to survive. Hope to go quick and painlessly. It was with him until he died. Having had to sit and watch, helpless to do anything, the Spirit of Hope was corrupted, and it became one of the new types of Demons that David Gaider said we can look forward to. In this particular case, a Despair Demon.

Why is this awesome?

Because if Hope is at the top of the hierarchy of spirits, then a Despair Demon is going to be incredibly, incredibly powerful too. I'm not sure if it was confirmed anywhere, so I took some creative licensing with where to pair Justice and Compassion. I assume Valor and Sloth go hand in hand because Sloth is always shown to be sort of meek, manipulative, a master of disguise, whereas Valor is bold, determined, eager to get involved, etc. Compassion is putting someone else's needs before yourself, so I paired it with Desire, the opposite. And that left us with;

Tier 1: Rage & Justice
Tier 2: Sloth & Valor
Tier 3: Desire & Compassion
Tier 4: Pride & Faith
Tier 5: Despair & Hope

From having read the book, Cole is a phenomenal character, and I sincerely hope he plays some sort of role in Dragon Age: Inquisition. I remember finishing the book, and once I got past that little epilogue, I was like "Cole would make for one awesome/deep companion." So that's what I'm holding out hope for, haha.

I'm not so sure about Tier 1 but I love the idea of a spirit of hope being corrupted by witnessing the death thereof (both literally and figuratively).  It seems to explain why "Cole" is so powerful.

[Avroseeker]

legbamel wrote...

JakeOfDiamonds wrote...

The way I see it, Cole was approached by a Spirit of Hope. Hope to escape. Hope to survive. Hope to go quick and painlessly. It was with him until he died. Having had to sit and watch, helpless to do anything, the Spirit of Hope was corrupted, and it became one of the new types of Demons that David Gaider said we can look forward to. In this particular case, a Despair Demon.

Why is this awesome?

Because if Hope is at the top of the hierarchy of spirits, then a Despair Demon is going to be incredibly, incredibly powerful too. I'm not sure if it was confirmed anywhere, so I took some creative licensing with where to pair Justice and Compassion. I assume Valor and Sloth go hand in hand because Sloth is always shown to be sort of meek, manipulative, a master of disguise, whereas Valor is bold, determined, eager to get involved, etc. Compassion is putting someone else's needs before yourself, so I paired it with Desire, the opposite. And that left us with;

Tier 1: Rage & Justice
Tier 2: Sloth & Valor
Tier 3: Desire & Compassion
Tier 4: Pride & Faith
Tier 5: Despair & Hope

From having read the book, Cole is a phenomenal character, and I sincerely hope he plays some sort of role in Dragon Age: Inquisition. I remember finishing the book, and once I got past that little epilogue, I was like "Cole would make for one awesome/deep companion." So that's what I'm holding out hope for, haha.

I'm not so sure about Tier 1 but I love the idea of a spirit of hope being corrupted by witnessing the death thereof (both literally and figuratively).  It seems to explain why "Cole" is so powerful.

Compassion is one of the weakness besides a Wisp.

World of Thedas: While not as strong as spirits of valor or justice, many compassion spirits have good relationships with healing mages, who call them from the Fade to help treat disease and injury in the waking world.

So they scale could look more like this...at least on the spirit side.

Wisp
Compassion
Valor
Justice
Faith
Hope

P.S it doesn't really say in the book if Justice is stronger the Valor or the other way around...so those two could trade spots.

Maybe demon scale?

Wisp Wraith
Rage
Sloth
Hunger
Desire
Pride

Modifié par Avroseeker, 08 juillet 2013 - 01:57 .