[quote]MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...
[quote]Ninja Stan wrote...
And they'll make decisions that are best for *their* game.
Not what the fans want. If they keep putting their own interest ahead of the fans, then they're going to lose said fans. And money.
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There is a world of difference between "doing something the fans want" and "doing
everything the fans want." BioWare cannot afford to listen to everyone and implement each individual's preference/tolerance in the game. And doing so would affect the cohesion of the game. Ultimately, it's BioWare and EA investing all the money and work into the game, so it's their risk.
I doubt any gamer is being reviled as a "people-hating gamer who's going to get fired and lose all his friends" because he didn't heed his friends', family's, and children's advice on what job to take. The kids want him to be a fireman or an astronaut, the friends want him to be a bartender or brewery worker to get perks, and his family wants him to do something monotonous and boring but makes a lot of money. Does this gamer then take three or four different jobs to satisfy everyone's wants? Or does he take that advice into consideration when making the decision that's best
for him? And will he actually get fired and lose all his friends just because he didn't take that bartender job? In fact, is anyone in his life going to resent him for choosing the job that's right
for him?
[quote]I"ll be sitting with the popcorn when they panic again and again over their games. It will be hilarious watching them fail. Constantly.
There comes a point when, if you want to survive as a company, you have to swallow your pride and do what the fans want. BioWare is nearing that point (if they haven't reached it already). Deny it if you want - It'll be your funeral, so to speak. Their trust is strained. Their credibility is strained. People aren't talking about BW for the great stories they provide anymore. They're talking about the latest way they managed to irk the fans.
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Predictions like this have been made since the Baldur's Gate days. At various times, BioWare was going to lose all its fans because they didn't make another BG game, because they didn't use AD&D 2E rules, because they sold out and made a Star Wars game, because they made a console game, because they made an action RPG, because they made a multiplatform game, because they included gay romances, because they didn't include enough gay romances, because they included romances at all, because they didn't include enough romances, because they were purchased by Elevation Partners, because they got purchased by EA, because Ray and Greg were no longer directly in charge of BioWare Edmonton, because Ray and Greg were still EA executives, because they created a sci-fi franchise, because ME2 was different from ME1, because or DRM, because of DLC, because of microtransactions, because they made ME3 MP, because they kept improving ME3 MP, because they stopped supporting ME3 MP, because EA hasn't changed, because EA is changing too much, because of things I've said on the forum, because of things Priestly has said on the forums, because of things other developers say on the forums, because developers don't talk on the forums, because EA hates customers, and much more.
If you'll notice some of those things are contradictory, and some are based on acceptance of something previously reviled.
[quote]That's why I think it's absolutely ludicrous that BW is entirely denying mistakes with ME3, saying that it was the fans issue. Maybe not every person who bought the game rose up in discontent, but not every person is a fan. Most don't care about what they buy. They play it, sometimes finish it, and move on. They don't get attached. The fans do, and it seems the fans weren't too keen on BW's story. On their interpretation.
They can either keep the course and risk losing more fans, or they can try to build trust and credibilty again.
[/quote]
"Fans" and "customers" buy the game the same way, and buy the same number of games (usually 1). Given that this is the case, and the alleged "fans" are the most critical, the most demanding, and the loudest--while the supposed "customers" are content with just playing the game and moving on--why would any company cater to "the fans" rather than just "the customers"? Remember that "the fans" are also the ones threatening boycotts if they don't get what they want, threatening to not buy anything from the company again for various reasons, insulting the company and the devs, and being extremely negative about things. I mean, you're kind of arguing my point for me here.
Now, I know not every fan is a certain way and not every customer is a certain way, but my point is that there are better ways of communicating your dislikes than making accusations and insults, and believing that one has the only/best/right opinion about the game and everyone else is bad/wrong. For one thing, dismissing some people as merely "customers" while calling yourself a "fan" isn't that cool. And like I said above, if that "fan" is acting like a jerk towards the game, company, or developers, why would any company want to listen to them, seeing as you've made the case that a "customer" pays the same money but doesn't make the same amount of stink about it?
Not trying to dissuade you from giving feedback, just trying to improve that communication.
[quote]And there's only one way they can do that, since all the PR and fancy words in the world aren't going to make change my mind. That's to release a game, and the more I hear about this game, the less it sounds good.
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I disagree that it's the only way, but you seem to believe that the only way BioWare can show whether they've "learned from their mistakes" is to release the next game. So why keep harping about it, since your mind won't be changed for a couple of years anyway? I mean, it's a little redundant to keep saying "my mind won't be changed" and then arguing with me about it, isn't it?
[quote]Because above any mistake that BioWare makes in a video game, or writing, or narrative, or whatever, is the mistake of denying that their is one. To be so arrogant as to look the fans in the eye and say "No. You're wrong. You have the problem, not us, and we're going to continue making the games that we like, not what you like" and expect us to not feel insulted, to not hold resentment.
[/quote]
Some corrections:
BioWare has never said that the fans have a problem if they didn't like the ME3 endings.
BioWare has never claimed that everyone will like everything they do.
BioWare has never forced anyone to purchase anything.
BioWare makes the games they feel fans will enjoy and which will sell.
BioWare does not exclude fans from providing feedback, but also does not promise that feedback will always be implemented.
BioWare is a business that exists to make money. To make that money, they need to sell games to fans/customers.
BioWare can't sell games to fans/customers if they drive those fans/customers away.
BioWare likely has done more research and has more data on what people likely want in their games than someone saying "I know what everyone wants."
BioWare is not magic, and can't accurately predict how fans/customers will respond to the game before release.
There is no magic formula for how to make a great game.
[quote]They sound a lot like the Texas State Senate right now. Or the NRA.
I believe that giving the fans what they want would work perfectly for them.
There's a reason doing that is the best business model in history. It's the best way to endear yourself to the fans. That makes them more willing and open to be accepting of their new games and stories, and of course, more open to the mistakes and misses.
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And here I disagree. "The fans" is a general term, and EA/BioWare know some of the things "the fans" want. The problem is that, here in the community, people are arguing for what they,
as an individual fan, wants. And individual fans want a variety of things, some of them contradictory. If you want more gay romances in a game and someone else wants fewer gay romances, then BioWare is necessarily going to disappoint someone no matter what they do about gay romances. And that's just with a binary choice. If you want more gay romances, Person A wants fewer gay romances, Person B wants a specific number of gay romances, Person C wants fewer but mandatory gay romances, Person D wants all bi romances, Person E wants an inequal number of gay and straight romances but no bi romances, Person F wants an equal number of gay, straight, and bi romances, Person F wants... blah blah blah... eventually, it's going to be impossible to please anyone!
But if BioWare instead looks at trends and what they want to do with the game, yes, they can "make the game we like, and not what the fans like" because fans/customers might want specific things, but they will
accept other things. You might want more gay romances, but you might
accept the same number of gay romances. Heck you might even accept fewer gay romances if those romances are especially well written. I believe this is the case with most any of the demands, preferences, desires, and needs being discussed in this community. Because, somehow, you were able to fall in love with the Mass Effect franchise even though you never had one before ME1 and wouldn't have known anything about what you wanted from it.
[quote]BioWare, from this lowly... consumer's (since fan isn't a word I'd use to describe myself at this point) perspective, isn't in a position to really choose the path of artistic integrity.
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First of all, "artistice integrity" was never used by BioWare to dismiss or deflect criticism. It was used by Ray Muzyka in a blog post showing his support for the ME3 team and all the work they did. This was done at a time when the team might have been demoralized by all the shouting and screaming over ME3's ending shortly after release, and Ray wanted to stand behind his people, and do so publicly. His kindness and support of his people are major reasons why BioWarians so enjoyed working for him.
And if you'll read the blog post again, Ray never used the term "artistic integrity." I believe he used the term "artistic vision," which is a real thing that all big creative projects aim for. The project lead has a certain vision of how the project will go, and everyone else strives to adhere to the artistic vision so that they don't get off track. It is less "I'm doing what I want despite negative feedback" and more "this is the goal that 100+ people on the project are working toward."
Besides that, many people throwing around that term don't realize that they
want BioWare to have artistic integrity. People
want BioWare to continue to make good, story-based games and write deep, meaningful characterizations. They
want BioWare to keep writing great stories in immersive settings despite everything in the industry telling them to go more casual with less involved storylines. "Artistic integrity," before the internet turned it into an insult, is what you want from creative people. It's what allows creative people to make "what they want" even if it won't sell or is unpopular. It's what allows creative people to take risks and innovate. Think about it.
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