168 réponses à ce sujet

[Dubozz]

It's always nice to hear bioware's position on the topic. Will save me a lot of money in future.

Modifié par Dubozz, 15 juillet 2013 - 12:55 .

[Jon The Wizard]

iakus wrote...

Jon The Wizard wrote...

If the Citadel DLC proves anything, it's that Bioware is willing to make the effort to win fans back. And if the multiplayer DLCs prove anything, it's that they're willing to go above and beyond to do that.

Seriously, Bioware did everything right with the multiplayer in terms of supporting it. New maps and variant maps? You got 'em. New characters? At least one per class per DLC. New weapons/equipment? In droves. Balance patches? All over the place. New faction of enemies and lethal joke characters the fans wanted to see in the game? WE HAVE VOLUS CHARACTERS FIGHTING COLLECTORS. Price? Free, so long as you have the game. I say again, they did everything right.

So why can't I play ME3 without modding the ending?

Because there's no pleasing you.

[Iakus]

Jon The Wizard wrote...

Because there's no pleasing you.

Yeah. silly me, wanting coherent stories, player agency, story consistency.  I'm so demanding. 

[CR121691]

TheGarden2010 wrote...

"I don't know why people have a problem with Mark Meer's voice"

people have a problem with Mark Meer's voice because he's a crap voice actor, insanely boring to listen to. there's a fine line between being a "hardened lifelong military man" and "soulless". Meer's acting is soulless. voicing a hardened soldier takes alot more than you might think, you constantly need to have an "edge" to your tone. Meer instead sounds like he's reading a script out loud as a joke. high school students can act better than that.

Lol, imo Meer is one of the better voice actors at the moment. And what is stopping you to go to a casting to do voice acting yourself?

[Rodia Driftwood]

I want Obsidian to make the net Mass Effect game.

[skyzophrenyk]

Jon The Wizard wrote...

iakus wrote...

Jon The Wizard wrote...

If the Citadel DLC proves anything, it's that Bioware is willing to make the effort to win fans back. And if the multiplayer DLCs prove anything, it's that they're willing to go above and beyond to do that.

Seriously, Bioware did everything right with the multiplayer in terms of supporting it. New maps and variant maps? You got 'em. New characters? At least one per class per DLC. New weapons/equipment? In droves. Balance patches? All over the place. New faction of enemies and lethal joke characters the fans wanted to see in the game? WE HAVE VOLUS CHARACTERS FIGHTING COLLECTORS. Price? Free, so long as you have the game. I say again, they did everything right.

So why can't I play ME3 without modding the ending?

Because there's no pleasing you.

Synthesis = Saren
Control = Illusive Man
Destruction = Genocide
Do Nothing = Giving up

For an action prone paragon, none of those fit the bill. Not to mention that Casey said we'd get dozens of wildly varied endings because the series was concluding and they didnt have to worry about having to make a new cohesive story to continue on.

I just hope they don't make this game into even more of an on-rails third person shooter than they did the last one (I want interesting non-combat, or partial combat assignments, and lots of them), now that they've hired that Gears of War guy. I also hope they don't make us buy 200 dollars worth of DLC to get a game of fulfilling depth and scope.

I also wish they would bring back that big open feeling of Mass Effect 1. Mass Effect 2 and 3 felt a small and confined in comparison to me. At least in terms of non-mission explorability. It felt like a set of small maps, rather than a big open world.

[Zakuspec089]

Good posts everyone. Maybe Next Mass Effect games will be great and fun to play, especially on Next Generation which will be awesome.

Mass Effect can do anything, in so many different ways but it should stick to the same style as previous games with better gameplay and stories, also new features.

I did love to see a Mass Effect and Star Wars crossover type Game, it's possible. Also a Mass Effect Just Cause like game and a Mass Effect Battlefront like game.

That what I did like to see, The other features I mentioned before. Mass Effect is still a Young and New series.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Ninja Stan wrote...

I think Microsoft was mistaken in their original policies, and I disagreed with them based on my read of the current state of gaming and what people want out of their gaming devices and gaming experiences. I would think twice about purchasing Microsoft's next console.

Then you can understand that the same thing generally applies to Bioware's next Mass Effect game as well.

Yes, any group vocal enough to speak out about it is likely a minority of the total market for the console. Microsoft chose to change their policies based on the resistance. It doesn't change the fact that it's still Microsoft's decision.

It is absolutely Microsoft's decision to make, and thank you for that acknowledgement.  Bioware will have to live with the consequences of their decisions as well should they alienate their market without a fix/gesture to restore confidence.

I think the limitations of the original policy itself was the mistake, but again, it's Microsoft's mistake to make. It's their product, it's their investment, it's their hard work, it's their risk, it's their prerogative. My duty as a responsible consumer to make a buy/not buy decision has not been altered, enhanced, or diminished one iota.

Thank you for your honesty and I completely agree with you.  That said, I also feel the same way about Bioware's storytelling direction right now. 

I'm going to disagree with you here. No company intends to upset their fans/customers or get a largely unpopular reaction. Companies can't really control who gets upset at them, or for what reason. But on the other hand, entertainment companies can't guarantee happiness and satisfaction to everyone.

While some companies don't intend to upset their fans, I can't imagine how the original ending was made without at least partially intending to cause confusion.

You shouldn't mistake BioWare not talking about things as evidence that BioWare doesn't acknowledge what they did wrong, or that BioWare believes no mistakes exist. I've heard it said that game companies are only as good as their last game, and I have come to believe it. I can look through these forums and see dozens of posts from people who say that they used to be huge fans but after ME3, or DA2, or Sonic, or whichever game, they're no longer going to buy BioWare games. But that's fine, in my opinion, because if even huge fans can have their faith in a company shaken by just one game, it means those fans can be regained just as easily by the company's next release.

While that is true, I hope Bioware understands why any fan would "return."  Hardcore fans who give up an entire franchise after the latest game can feel that the story's continuity has been irrevocably broken (so why come back?) or the company's approach to game development has made the franchise's narrative integrity a secondary concern to cost/corner-cutting/revenue multi-stream philosophies.  It's all about the direction (from what I can tell). 

I think we can agree that with Mass Effect 3, Bioware did not take a "story first" attitude with the game and that's where the backlash is primarily stemming from.

I wish the best for Bioware and truly hope they come back stronger than ever... but even I'm not sure how they can keep Mass Effect's story going without essentially starting over... and even then, I hope Bioware doesn't give up due to possibly slower initial sales (or even worse, try to increase initial sales by making their story-driven core game secondary to modes like multiplayer).

I look forward to more Mass Effect, but I'd only buy it after it's had time to generate substantial user reviews that confirm a 'return to narrative form' (preferably with all story elements available as part of the game when it launches instead of being sold separately as day 1 DLC).

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 16 juillet 2013 - 01:11 .

[Mr. Gogeta34]

AlanC9 wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

It all depends on their intent.  If their intention was to not upset their fans or get such a largely unpopular reaction, then they have something they need to work on (and they'd have to admit that they took the story in a direction that can qualify as being "wrong," given their intent to try and please the fans).  It's most certainly okay to be wrong, fans respect creators that learn from their mistakes more than creators who act as though no mistakes exist.

I imagine that the intent wss to upset the fans to some extent; they probably didn't intend to upset them  quite as much as they did.

I find it impossible to imagine the ending to ME3's story being written in full confidence saying (without sarcasm) "Fans are gonna love this."

[Addictress]

CR121691 wrote...

TheGarden2010 wrote...

"I don't know why people have a problem with Mark Meer's voice"

people have a problem with Mark Meer's voice because he's a crap voice actor, insanely boring to listen to. there's a fine line between being a "hardened lifelong military man" and "soulless". Meer's acting is soulless. voicing a hardened soldier takes alot more than you might think, you constantly need to have an "edge" to your tone. Meer instead sounds like he's reading a script out loud as a joke. high school students can act better than that.

Lol, imo Meer is one of the better voice actors at the moment. And what is stopping you to go to a casting to do voice acting yourself?

Honestly, the voice-acting in Mass Effect is the best voice-acting I've heard in any game besides maybe Assassin's Creed, and it definitely blows Dragon Age's voice-acting out of the water (sorry Dragon Age team! I still love you)

[Tonymac]

^ this is true - they are top notch

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Addictress wrote...

CR121691 wrote...

TheGarden2010 wrote...

"I don't know why people have a problem with Mark Meer's voice"

people have a problem with Mark Meer's voice because he's a crap voice actor, insanely boring to listen to. there's a fine line between being a "hardened lifelong military man" and "soulless". Meer's acting is soulless. voicing a hardened soldier takes alot more than you might think, you constantly need to have an "edge" to your tone. Meer instead sounds like he's reading a script out loud as a joke. high school students can act better than that.

Lol, imo Meer is one of the better voice actors at the moment. And what is stopping you to go to a casting to do voice acting yourself?

Honestly, the voice-acting in Mass Effect is the best voice-acting I've heard in any game besides maybe Assassin's Creed, and it definitely blows Dragon Age's voice-acting out of the water (sorry Dragon Age team! I still love you)

While I agree that Mass Effect has some of the best acting performances out there overall, I wouldn't say it's the best.  It's got peers (Anything from Naughty Dog or Kojima Productions for example)

[Modius Prime]

 Let me start with this: I am a single person, but there are running trends in preferences that are shared with millions of gamers, and from what I have seen/read/experienced in over 10 years of AAA gaming, I can safely assume that I can speak for some of the gamers. I am a fan, but that does not invalidate my opinion as a consumer. Consumers are the very reason why  a business is successful. After all - putting BioWare's ideology behind (making unforgettable characters...stories) - BioWare's main goal is to make profits.

I understand that BioWare can't make everyone happy, but they should focus on their fans. When I go to the store/forum to buy a game/criticize a game, I as a fan (who are often knowledgeable consumers) will actually spread the word about whether the game was 'good' or 'bad'. You do not see casual people going around spreading the word that a game/any product is good, less they have already become a so called 'fan'. Some people that buy games are terribly misinformed and that's what the fans are for - they go spreading the word about a game without the company having to spend millions of dollars on advertising. And even these 'advertisements' are vague and 'fans' give clarity to casuals who are, in most cases, uninformed. Most of the people buying games are misinformed and fans act in such a way as the electoral college of the United States. Casuals do not have the capacity to logically argue about what makes a game successful (some other posters have said this as well) and fans serve as the crutch for casuals. Also, fans serve as a bridge between critics and the people. Some critics don't even play the entire game/any of the previous games (I think Forbes is the only major supporter of the fans) and are sometimes unreliable, while some, if not most, fans have completed everything. Although fans can be bias/cruel/blunt/whatever, they do have a lot of reliable knowledge that should not be neglected. Fans>general consumers. Fans essentially do the work for a company, and while they do have a lot of requests, there are running themes in them; after all, BioWare cannot afford all the requests of said fans. Most of the running themes of RPG gamers include: extensive customization, (including mods) genuine story, exploration, meaningful actions, and combat that is reflective of a persons personal preferences due to a wide array of available abilities (see Skyrim, World of Warcraft, ect.). Another thing that not just fans can agree with is that they do not enjoy being LIED to.  BioWare staff members (Mike Gamble, I think) openly said in an interview that there wouldn't be an A, B, C ending, yet there was an A, B, C ending. A lot of things were promised and they were flat-out lies and there is no denying it - even the Better Business Bureau agrees; it was overly hyped and extremely misleading. @Ninja Stan: Ray did say artistic integrity. Some other things people have said is that the ending detracts from previously established themes and the hundreds of polls about consumer satisfaction do not lie. In a Batman analogy, there are things that Batman must do in order for it to stay 'Batman'. Batman needs to defeat the Joker, Two Face, ect., and these things are what form the core of the franchise. The same could be said for Mass Effect, or anything in general. There were certain things that were established, like meaningful choices, overcoming impossible odds, and the diversity of the galaxy, yet they were tossed aside in an anti-climatic ending.  Funny thing is is that the ending actually gave more questions than answers . Another thing is how 'fans' were addressed as a vocal minority - an insignificant minority that caused a AAA developer to change the ending of their game. Putting my opinion aside, there are reasons why EA's stocks are falling; it's because people are tired of dealing with people who lie to them and make contentious games. There is a reason why EA was voted with the Golden Poo award by Consumerist two years in a row! EDIT: @NinjaStan Companys make products because there is a need of said product. And who needs these products? Consumers! Without the consumers, you have NOTHING. No job, no salary, nada.

BioWare did 'fix' a lot of their game, but unfortunately it was included in a DLC: Citadel for an extra $15. It was solely about the characters and the story (I'm not talking about the *antagonist* [spoiler removed], I'm talking about the story of the characters) and that is why it was so well recieved. But not everyone can access that DLC - maybe even the Extended Cut - so I guess it is just a bandage. I do not hate BioWare, or any company for the matter, and I just hope that this information can prove to be insightful for future games. Ultimately, I think BioWare 's(and EA's) goal should be is to win back customer fidelity. I think some fans are just generally upset that it is over, but most of it is about the game, overall. It's really disappointing how ME3 and the fiasco that followed it is now regarded as 'that thing that should not happen to you'.

Modifié par Modius Prime, 16 juillet 2013 - 06:33 .

[levyjl1988]

I would love for them to create consistency between the character creation supplied.
And the Spectre Requisitions is a godsend in ME3, for those who missed out on items during missions, like certain weapon upgrades, it can be purchased conveniently for a price.

Though I question some of the game design decisions on where they lay these items. Putting these upgrades in a place where a firefight will occur is just bad. It divides the players attention between enemy and collectable. Better suited locations would be more ideal.

[frostajulie]

6 Pages and this is what I got out of it:

Some fans: ME3 had some bad mistakes.

Bioware: No it didn't.

Sounds to me like nothing was learned because Bioware is unaware there was anything to learn.
But then again as was pointed out and I agree with this Citadel DLC proved that Bioware had learned. But I am hopelessly in love with the entire cast of characters from this franchise so I am of course biased.
MHO: I will wait and see time will tell in the quality of their products if Bioware "learned" anything. In this day and age you do not have to purchase a game to know what the gameplay is like, if the story is any good and if the game would be emotionally satisfying. User reviews and lets play videos are very helpful in empowering consumers to make an informed decision. That was what I learned from this whole thing.

[Tonymac]

frostajulie wrote...

6 Pages and this is what I got out of it:

Some fans: ME3 had some bad mistakes.

Bioware: No it didn't.

Sounds to me like nothing was learned because Bioware is unaware there was anything to learn.
But then again as was pointed out and I agree with this Citadel DLC proved that Bioware had learned. But I am hopelessly in love with the entire cast of characters from this franchise so I am of course biased.
MHO: I will wait and see time will tell in the quality of their products if Bioware "learned" anything. In this day and age you do not have to purchase a game to know what the gameplay is like, if the story is any good and if the game would be emotionally satisfying. User reviews and lets play videos are very helpful in empowering consumers to make an informed decision. That was what I learned from this whole thing.

They didn't learn and they are not going to.  Remember "artistic integrity"?  "Artistic Integrity" is a nice way of saying "F_ck off".  Thats right - its a helicopter trick in your face that says, "screw you, I will do what I want."

Do you know why they can do it and get away with it?  Because people buy the DLC that does not fix the plot holes and unimaginative and horrible endings.  No matter what Bioware puts out, the lemmings will rush in and suck it up.  ME3 was poop, yet they made a fortune.  I pre-ordered, something I will never do again.  Had some of us seen how bad the game was, we'd not have bought it.

One thing also that is for sure - I will not buy any DLC for ME3 either.  You paid for DLC that had the qualities ME3 should already have had.  A game that horrifically bad has no salvation.  The writers, the developers stopped caring about Mass Effect.  They torched all of those dreams, grandeur and fun, and our finale was starchild.  If thats not 'artistic integrity' then I dunno what is.

[Cassandra Saturn]

Tony, did you know that EA rushed ME3? they forced Bioware to do things quick. which explains why EA also did rushed ME2 too. but this is not Bioware's fault. these things happen when a bigger game company owns a small game company.

[Lady Abstract]

Cassandra Saturn wrote...

Tony, did you know that EA rushed ME3? they forced Bioware to do things quick. which explains why EA also did rushed ME2 too. but this is not Bioware's fault. these things happen when a bigger game company owns a small game company.

Finally someone who sees....me3 was rushed by EA bioware was under the pressure of EA in their ears and raging fanboys

[XPERIA_Z]

they underestimated the fans. thats all

[Spanishcat]

Tonymac wrote...

ME3 was poop, yet they made a fortune. /

A game that horrifically bad has no salvation.

You do realise that's just a wholly subjective POV, right? So the generalisations in your post aren't very productive at all. Stuff like this:

Tonymac wrote...
The writers, the developers stopped caring about Mass Effect.

Firstly, you obviously can't qualify that, so why bother making it. Secondly, I don't think a game that's been reviewed so well across the board, sold so well, and has spawned so much fan created content is reflective of a game being made by writers and devs who "stopped caring". I think that's deeply insulting to BioWare and is hilariously wide of the mark. The Extended Cut and Citadel surely go some way to further debunk the idea, even if you didn't like them.

Re 'mistakes', Ninja Stan basically nailed it on page 1:

Ninja Stan wrote...
See, if you want BioWare to learn from their "mistakes," there has to be a separation between "what I didn't like" and "what isn't good." And those things aren't necessarily the same, and certainly not the same for everyone.

Videogames are distinct in a lot of ways from other mediums, but ultimately, they're just another form of expressive art. When does a band, a director, a writer, a TV showrunner make 'mistakes', and how are they defined? Mass Effect is no different, and anyone would be hard pressed to objectively identify and delineate creative 'mistakes'.

I personally think that BioWare have gone from strength to strength (I am worried about the Dr's leaving, and how that'll effect the intangible yet quintessential BioWare-ness, but I'm still really looking forward to DAIII. hell, I loved DAII). Have any of their games been entirely free of things I didn't like? No, but I don't demand art conforms to what I myself would create or even enjoy. BioWare have done different things with different IP's, and I've been interested in every path they've taken across multiple series.

[Iakus]

Spanishcat wrote...
 Secondly, I don't think a game that's been reviewed so well across the board, sold so well, and has spawned so much fan created content is reflective of a game being made by writers and devs who "stopped caring"

Given that so much of that fan created content is actually "fan fixes" I'd say there was, at the very least, a strong disconnect between developer and fan.

I personally think that BioWare have gone from strength to strength (I am worried about the Dr's leaving, and how that'll effect the intangible yet quintessential BioWare-ness, but I'm still really looking forward to DAIII. hell, I loved DAII). Have any of their games been entirely free of things I didn't like? No, but I don't demand art conforms to what I myself would create or even enjoy. BioWare have done different things with different IP's, and I've been interested in every path they've taken across multiple series.

No game of theirs (and few games overall) has created this powerful a backlash. Anger and suspicion that persists even to this day.  I'd say your assessment that they have gone "from strength to strength" is at least as subjective as those who think they have lost the pulse of their players.

[Chashan]

Spanishcat wrote...


Videogames are distinct in a lot of ways from other mediums, but ultimately, they're just another form of expressive art. When does a band, a director, a writer, a TV showrunner make 'mistakes', and how are they defined? Mass Effect is no different, and anyone would be hard pressed to objectively identify and delineate creative 'mistakes'.
.

Disagreed on that count. Games' inherent interactivity means that players do become agents of the action and 'co-authors' in a certain sense. Of course, different game-series weigh this aspect of 'co-authorship' differently, limiting the 'action'-part to gameplay, but players are a driving force of events in some capacity regardless. More on this a little later.


It's also quite evident that traditional media of story-telling are subjected to criticism based on how and where these stories go, and creators did and do get flak for what they put out there. Why this obsession with claiming some unchangeable, sacrosanct law that pieces of art, and stories specifically, never change in the face of this?


Numerous examples of the latter can be found, ultimately, as specific stories are picked up at a later date and changed somewhat drastically in tone and theme. An example that comes to mind here is the opera adaption of the story of Orpheus and Eurydike from the 18th century by a Willibald Gluck - a dramatic departure from its original sources from antiquity, also on the moral side of things (somewhat kitsch, admittedly). Denying the factuality and validity that art is a malleable thing is absurd to me based on that.


Coming back to 'co-authorship', I see it as one of the great strengths of this medium, something which ought to be realized and embraced by developers in general. Hell, some of the content by 'co-creators' easily qualify as artistically valuable themselves, even if development cycles are lengthier than those of fully-staffed developers. Right now, I myself am awaiting the coming release of Europa Barbarorum II, a successor to a mod for Rome: Total War with historical accuracy in mind on the Medieval: TW 2-engine. Not only a good mind-set behind that one, the model- and texture-work of it simply looks gorgeous as well.


In the case of BW, and ME specifically, I would hope that co-authorship will be embraced more strongly again in that sense, as its fictional universe lends itself to it. And should there be some sort of problem with the game itself, it can be 'fixed' by fans themselves, as pointed out by another here, if so desired and if necessary. Which isn't a bad thing in and of itself, and in fact involves the community more.

I will not lie, without one such co-creative effort,  I could label the finale of ME3 as naught but overambitious tripe.

Modifié par Chashan, 18 juillet 2013 - 02:55 .

[Neizd]

wow...people are still mad about ME3 (at least some are) o_O

No matter anyones opinion it is a fact that "ending war" was raging so it means the game wasn't "the best game BW ever made"...and it was supposed to be the "most epic trillogy". Hopefully the next product will give back what was lost with ME3.

It's doesn't matter if some people loved it and some people hated it. What is important for the series is, that it should be well received.

Speaking of which, Bioware should really consider old fans more than new ones. ME3 is actually better if you don't import a saved game :/

[The Twilight God]

Zakuspec089 wrote...

Next Mass Effect: Do you think they learned from their Mistakes?

Do you see a ending patch to fix the colossal F-up? No? Me neither.

Answer: NO.

[Ninja Stan]

Thanks for the correction, Modius Prime. I've misremembered that quote for a long time now.