168 réponses à ce sujet

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Neizd wrote...

wow...people are still mad about ME3 (at least some are) o_O

No matter anyones opinion it is a fact that "ending war" was raging so it means the game wasn't "the best game BW ever made"...and it was supposed to be the "most epic trillogy". Hopefully the next product will give back what was lost with ME3.

It's doesn't matter if some people loved it and some people hated it. What is important for the series is, that it should be well received.

Speaking of which, Bioware should really consider old fans more than new ones. ME3 is actually better if you don't import a saved game :/

I think most people are simply disappointed in Bioware for making their craft a secondary concern to monetary shortcuts.  Hopefully this doesn't happen with the next ME, and they can redeem themselves.

[Iakus]

Chashan wrote..

I will not lie, without one such co-creative effort,  I could label the finale of ME3 as naught but overambitious tripe.

True.  Very, very true.

[JoltDealer]

I'm not sure how many people here are actual content creators.  I know that previous statement sounds condescending, but I assure you it isn't.  I am just actually curious as to how many people here have actually produced their own creative project.  To those that have, do you like your own work?  Would you change something about it purely because someone else didn't like it?  How do you feel when someone tells you what you should have done?

Artistic Integrity is not meant to be a giant, middle finger to critics.  It's a term used to describe the artist's unwillingness to compromise their integrity.  It's like that saying, "To thy own self be true."  You wouldn't and shouldn't change yourself just because someone else doesn't like you.  The same goes for the content you create.

I feel like a lot of gamers don't understand that and simply view it as an insult because they're angry at Bioware.  Yes, it is a commercial product, so one should be worried about customer satisfaction.  However, at the end of the day, none of us fans, made it and its not ours to change.  As the creator of the series, the decision of whether or not to change the ending was ultimately, Bioware's.  If you're unhappy with the choice they made, that is your prerogative.  I can't demand that you guys stop being uspet about the ending because it's your choice to be angry.  Me asking someone to change his or her opinion on this topic, is like fans asking Bioware to change Mass Effect 3's ending.  It's kind of rude no matter how much I dislike it.

However, there is the argument that as consumers, "We have the right to demand a better product."  This is also true, but how does that work in other mediums?  If you see a bad movie, do you demand for your money back or do you demand that they change the film?  If the ending of the latest book in a series is bad, do you demand that the ending be rewritten or do you hope that the next installment is better?  At the end of the day, Bioware didn't have any obligation, legal or otherwise, to do anything after the game had been released.  In fact, they could have done nothing.  They probably would've lost a lot of fans and it would've been a dick move, but they didn't have to do a single thing.  Regardless of all the capslock rage you would use to argue that, "BIOWARE HAD TO DO SOMETHING," they didn't and I think that's an important fact (not an opinion) to remember.

The Extended Cut wasn't perfect, nor was it good enough to change the opinions of some fans.  For others like myself, it was good enough although admittedly I would've like more.  From my point of view, it was a compromise.  A company who wished to preserve their artistic integrity, but had upset many fans.  They addressed many of the complaints and problems fans listed like the plot holes, the lack of closure, the bleak ending that left the future of the series in question, and more.  The only thing they didn't do, was cave in and completely change the ending.  Why?  Because it was Bioware's creation and they chose not to change it, which was their right.  Then they chose to continue on with the DLC they had planned and with the multiplayer support (I just want to remind people that MP and SP content were made by two separate teams).  After a year, they finally released "The Citadel" DLC (albeit at a cost, but production ain't cheap) as a sort of send-off for characters from this trilogy.  This wasn't perfect either and it didn't change the ending, but it was one last ride with friends you made over the last few years.  It was once last chance to say, "Goodbye."  Maybe it didn't "fix" the ending, but I enjoyed it nonetheless.

So finally we come full circle to the actual topic of this thread.  We all have a different lists than the other guy, but yes, they made mistakes.  Do I think they've learned from them?  I would like to think so.  I mean think about the BSN, where fans of the various games they make can come to discuss these series with the people who made them.  They listen to their fans.  If you need proof, just look at Blasto the Hanar Spectre.  He literally started off as joke on the forums and ended up becoming a running gag.  And the Refund Guy!  No idea why people liked him, but people wanted to see whether or not he ever got his refund even after three games.  Then you see Dragon Age Inquisition, where Bioware has been showing in panels how they plan to listen to fans.  With the creative teams of both games currently turning to fans and asking, "How can we make the next game better?"  I think it's safe to say that even if they aren't learning from their mistakes, they are at least trying to.

I personally believe that EA and Bioware had to learn how to work with one another.  It hasn't been the easiest ride.  One of the founders of Bioware called it a, "bear hug."  In fact, we've seen other developers go belly-up working with EA.  It is for this reason, I am grateful for all the vocal fans out there because we have shown EA our displeasure with the way they were handling things.  I must go on record and say that I didn't have problems with the initial fan reaction, but I do take issue with the continuation of this "Sod EA/Bioware Mentality" regardless of Bioware's attempts to assuage the situation.  In response, EA seems to be giving Bioware more room to do their thing.  Bioware is following this up by asking for all the fan feedback they can get.  I think we should be supporting them and doing what we can to help make the next games better than the last.  Dwelling on the past and saying, "I'm not buying Mass Effect 4 if they don't give me the ending I wanted for 3," I feel is wasting an opportunity.  

Modifié par Crimson Sound, 19 juillet 2013 - 09:14 .

[SilJeff]

@Crimson Sound

Well said

[SimonTheFrog]

@Crimson

I can relate to your first thought about "staying true to ones vision" in theory. But practically, sometimes your vision feels too compromised by budget, un-inspiredness and a lack of cohesion. In that case, sticking to your vision is a bit like riding the dead horse and makes you look like an arrogant person that doesn't have the spine to say "yeah, I screwed that one up". Just because you had an artistic vision doesn't automatically make it awesome.

I truly hope that the people most responsible for the general decline in storytelling (of the main story arc) can see the bigger picture about what was going on.

It is so easy to look yourself up in your own mind and claim that nobody "gets" you etc etc. And there still is a lot of pressure from all sorts of sources, the hard core fans just being one amongst others.

Learning from mistakes doesn't necessarily mean being able to do it better next time.

But there you go.

P.S.: i think putting in cute references for the fans like a Hanar Spectre and understanding what makes people fall in love with the whole ME universe are two very unrelated things.

[AlanC9]

SimonTheFrog wrote...

But practically, sometimes your vision feels too compromised by budget, un-inspiredness and a lack of cohesion. In that case, sticking to your vision is a bit like riding the dead horse and makes you look like an arrogant person that doesn't have the spine to say "yeah, I screwed that one up". Just because you had an artistic vision doesn't automatically make it awesome.

True. But realizing that your vision would require more resouces than you have to be awesome doesn't grant you access to a more feasible vision either.

[Iakus]

SimonTheFrog wrote...

@Crimson

I can relate to your first thought about "staying true to ones vision" in theory. But practically, sometimes your vision feels too compromised by budget, un-inspiredness and a lack of cohesion. In that case, sticking to your vision is a bit like riding the dead horse and makes you look like an arrogant person that doesn't have the spine to say "yeah, I screwed that one up". Just because you had an artistic vision doesn't automatically make it awesome.

"A stroke from the brush does not guarantee art from the bristles"

Ambassador Kosh, Babylon 5

True. But realizing that your vision would require more resouces than you have to be awesome doesn't grant you access to a more feasible vision either.

Then you go with a more modest vision.  Something tried and true.  It may not be as inspired or "artistic" but it's feasible, functional, and in the end, more likely to please than an artistic death ride.

Modifié par iakus, 20 juillet 2013 - 12:01 .

[Zakuspec089]

I'm mainly curious about what they will do with The Next Mass Effect, it be cool to have our imported saves transfer over to see the Effects of the Galaxy and What Happened. I hope to play other species in singleplayer and horde modes. I think with romancing they should have equal romances for both genders and species, also have new characters of different species and both genders.. I also hope to see new locations-hubs, have exploration back as well, vehicles again. I'm really interested in The New Story where they are going with the series. That what I think.

I do agree that they should look into their past mistakes and make changes from there, make things better.

[Karlone123]

iakus wrote...

Chashan wrote..

I will not lie, without one such co-creative effort,  I could label the finale of ME3 as naught but overambitious tripe.

True.  Very, very true.

The game now does not meet the hype it had back then. It's simple enough to understand that ME3 did not meet on the same level ME2 was on.

Modifié par Karlone123, 24 juillet 2013 - 11:12 .

[Iakus]

Karlone123 wrote...

The game now does not meet the hype it had back then. It's simple enough to understand that ME3 did not meet on the same level ME2 was on.

I was no big fan of ME2 either.

My expectations were quite modest.  And the endings failed to even rise that high.

[Argentoid]

Tomeran wrote...

One word: Citadel.

Yeah, they've learned.

If nothing else, that DLC got my hopes up that they have.

Actually, no.

What bothers me most, though, is that Citadel represents all the worst possible lessons from the ending debacle. If Citadel achieves the goal of bringing fans back into the fold, it doesn’t bode well for future game stories from the studio, in my mind. Imagine it: You’re working on the hard-hitting ending for Dragon Age 4 that includes every character dying. It’s sad, but that’s the story the game needs to tell, and furthermore, it fits the tone and characters you’ve created in the game up to that point. But then a suit wanders up and tells you the ending has to be happy, because the suit learned from the success of Citadel that people like happy endings.

Citadel isn’t about good storytelling, it’s about "feel-good" storytelling.

I worry that a post-Citadel future will see a departure from tough subjects in favor of more singalongs, dance sessions, drunken parties and giant apartments with hot tubs. That’s not why I like BioWare, and it’s not why I like Mass Effect.

Modifié par Argentoid, 25 juillet 2013 - 05:52 .

[CR121691]

The fact that they take their time for DA3I proves to me that they learned from their ''mistakes''.

Modifié par CR121691, 25 juillet 2013 - 12:01 .

[Teddie Sage]

CR121691 wrote...

The fact that they take their time for DA3I proves to me that they learned from their ''mistakes''.

Uh... Not exactly. Dragon Age Team is a whole different team. BioWare isn't just one team after all. It's a bunch of teams working together under one bigger company that also works for EA at the same time. But yeah, when one team screws up, it's the other teams that suffer the most from the controversies and the boycotts. I think there are three teams that we know about at the moment. The new Mass Effect Team in Montreal. The Dragon Age Team and the new IP Team which consists of the old Mass Effect Team members. I'm not even sure about the SWTOR's team location yet. Haven't really paid attention to that MMO. Anyways, it's easy to blame them (...sadly...) when only one team is concerned.

Modifié par Teddie Sage, 25 juillet 2013 - 12:07 .

[MeredithvL]

Citadel DLC gave me hope in Bioware again, so let's see.

[wright1978]

What i hope for;
a) a return to the largely player characterised protaganist of ME1/2.
a return to the player character fate being a result of player choice rather than the ME3 railroaded forced death.

[Daniel_N7]

Ninja Stan wrote...

I think that there will be a big difference in what BioWare thinks are the mistakes it needs to learn from and what the fans think are the mistakes that need to be learned from. BioWare has to make decisions that are the best for the game. Some fans believe that only their opinion/taste/preference/tolerance matters and want the game more tailored to themselves. This is not something BioWare is interested in doing, nor is "what Francis R. Gamer wants in the next game" necessarily a "mistake" in ME3.

The real “mistakes” with the original trilogy have nothing to do with what the fans want or don’t want. For example, if gamers expect certain characters to live or to die, that’s anyone’s right but you can’t blame the storyteller – ultimately the creators of the game – for not meeting your expectations.

The things that we could call “mistakes” are, therefore, the structural problems. Being purely assertive, without any negativity, I would like to point out two important examples.

The first has to do with story planning and continuity along the three games. If the original Mass Effect trilogy had been planned from the beginning, something as important to the narrative as the Crucible would not appear, in such rushed manner, in the opening of the third game. The themes that would define the final resolution would be better presented throughout the series.

The second structural problem, in my opinion, has to do with the way “branching storylines” were managed. This is probably the most complex and ambitious aspect of the trilogy. It’s what makes it a great gaming series. But the “experimental” nature of the series, which I believe was a great learning experience for BioWare, had its costs in the final result.
Mass Effect 1 and 2 opened story branches, continuously, without closing any of them. Therefore, many of these stories were left unresolved and left for the final game. This made Mass Effect 3 a very contrived storytelling process for BioWare. Some things were successfully resolved, others were not – since this is a “no spoilers” forum, I will not give specifics but those of you who played the game can easily identify examples.

BioWare will hopefully assimilate the lessons learned in the making of the first Mass Effect trilogy and develop a more cohesive story this time. I hope it’s another trilogy, and if that turns out to be the case, they need to make a careful planning of all the storyline branches incorporating long-term stories – that start in game 1 and finish in game 3 – and short-term stories – that start in 1 and finish in 2, and others that start in 2 and finish in 3.

Finally, I am glad BioWare is taking a step forward in terms of technology and is working with a new game engine. It’s fundamental that the next Mass Effect (and Dragon Age) titles allow wider areas, more exploration and better gameplay animations. I know some of you are big fans of the “BioWare style” but it was becoming increasingly obvious that they were operating under strict limitations. The real challenge is to move forward while retaining the narrative and gameplay philosophy that made their previous works so fantastic. I hope they find a way.

[NobodyOwens]

Ninja Stan wrote...

I think that there will be a big difference in what BioWare thinks are the mistakes it needs to learn from and what the fans think are the mistakes that need to be learned from. BioWare has to make decisions that are the best for the game. Some fans believe that only their opinion/taste/preference/tolerance matters and want the game more tailored to themselves. This is not something BioWare is interested in doing, nor is "what Francis R. Gamer wants in the next game" necessarily a "mistake" in ME3.

Well, fans are the people who shelled out 150+ for all 3 of these games, and they will be the people buying any subsequent installments, so what they want certainly matters. It would be bizarre to NOT listen to fans.

Furthermore, I think the definition of a "mistake" isn't as inscrutable as you make it out to be. The initial fan outrage in response to ME3 dwarfed normal internet chatter - it spawned a movement of sorts! The controversy was reported on news outlets like Game Informer. Didn't the better business bureau weigh in, too? 

I'm not saying I agree with all of the dissenters, but I'm saying that it's plainly obvious that we could define a "mistake" as any deviations from developers' promises for ME3  or any ME3 deviations from the gameplay/storylines of the previous ME installments which felt shallow or rushed. There are people on this forum who've catalogued such broken promises or "mistakes". Instead of insulting people by playing passive-aggressive-philosopher, one could help facilitate such discussions by defining "mistake" as above, and go from there.

[metalheaded0117]

Well heres hoping theyre artistic integrity doesnt ruin the whole franchise i love the ME universe but its like a choose your own adventure books and the last page has the same thing written on it FREE BIOWARE FROM THE EAmpire

[Azaron Nightblade]

NobodyOwens wrote...

Well, fans are the people who shelled out 150+ for all 3 of these games, and they will be the people buying any subsequent installments, so what they want certainly matters. It would be bizarre to NOT listen to fans.

Furthermore, I think the definition of a "mistake" isn't as inscrutable as you make it out to be. The initial fan outrage in response to ME3 dwarfed normal internet chatter - it spawned a movement of sorts! The controversy was reported on news outlets like Game Informer. Didn't the better business bureau weigh in, too? 

I'm not saying I agree with all of the dissenters, but I'm saying that it's plainly obvious that we could define a "mistake" as any deviations from developers' promises for ME3  or any ME3 deviations from the gameplay/storylines of the previous ME installments which felt shallow or rushed. There are people on this forum who've catalogued such broken promises or "mistakes". Instead of insulting people by playing passive-aggressive-philosopher, one could help facilitate such discussions by defining "mistake" as above, and go from there.

Yeah, I'd say it's pretty clear when a huge portion of your fanbase is very unhappy and very vocal about it all over the place.
Sure, there are other things that some people call a mistake, like the people complaining about the auto dialogues and such, but those aren't nearly as widespread as the complaints regarding the ending.

More on topic, yes, I imagine they will learn from them - because despite the earplugging "Lalala can't hear you! What mistakes?" treatment, I have very little doubt that they are aware of what went wrong.
Then again, maybe the writers just go "Bah! Philistines! You simply can't understand the greatness of our art!" and completely ignore the whole backlash that happened with ME3.