809 réponses à ce sujet

[ejoslin]

Realmzmaster wrote...

I think the fear some posters have is that the developers will not work as hard on combat and random encounters if a skip combat button is implemented. Whether that is true or not is immaterial because some gamers perceive that to be the case. That perception leads them to protect that aspect of game play.
The same could be said for the skip dialogue implementation. Early crpgs had no way of skipping the dialogue. In fact you could not because there were no real cut scenes like in present crpgs.
The earlier crpgs so called cut scenes were implemented like banter except with text that the gamer had to give a response..

I guess my only counter to that is that there already is the option to skip dialog, yet I think the writers work harder on that than any other part of the game.  If you have the ability to skip combat, that may actually be incentive to make combat more fun and interesting so people don't skip it their first few playthroughs, but instead look forward to it.

ETA: Or was that what you were getting at?  I'm not sure!  I do remember when dialog couldn't be skipped, though.  That was fine.  Combat often had me groaning even back then though.  Another slime?  URGH!

Modifié par ejoslin, 17 juillet 2013 - 05:54 .

[MerinTB]

Taint Master wrote...
The two go hand in hand. That was the entire point.

No, they do NOT go hand in hand.  You have a book written, right, but as a reader you have the option of reading the last page first.  Is that intended?  No.  Does it happen a lot? Yes.

Did the author write the book for people reading the last page first?  No.  Do people reading the last page first change how authors write books? No.

Will game designers seeking to make challenging combat stop making combat challenging because people can skip the combat?  No.  Proof?  Players can do this a number of ways.  Console commands and mods.  Doesn't stop the devs from focusing on combat.

Your arguments remain nonsense.  No matter how many times you claim, by fiat, that combat is easier because people can skip it, doesn't make it right.

You can jump to the last page of War and Peace.  That doesn't negate War and Peace being a long book to read.

Nonsense is nonsense.

Taint Master wrote...

Merin wrote...
Well, I guess it's a darn good thing I'm not saying that. At. All.
Straw men are easy to knock down, aren't they?

That is incredibly ironic since you spent an entire paragraph misrepresenting my argument.

Interesting.  Which argument are you making that I am misrepresenting?  My understanding is that you are arguing that letting players skip combat or (as I'm advocating) auto-resolve combat (which, to be clear for the upteenth time, is NOT auto-win) makes the combat itself less challenging.  I am also of the understanding that you are claiming that you are negatively affected by others being able to auto-resolve or skip the combat.

Are those underlined parts NOT what you are arguing?  If not, state the central premise of your arguments in a couple sentences to correct me.

I'm not seeing the irony here... wait...

Taint Master wrote...
If you're going to accuse people of logical fallacies, the least you can do is use the terminology correctly... and not rely on them yourself.  Although I guess that's par for the course in internet forum discussions!  Cringe-worthy.

Hold on.

:lol:
:O:O:O:O


Hold on.

You do understand what sarcasm is, right?



:O:O:O:O:O:O:O:O:O:O:O:O:O:O:O:O:O:O:O:O:O:O:O:O:O:O:O:O:O

*wipes eyes*

Oh, man.  Thanks.  Thank you.  I haven't laughed that much in a LONG time.

Modifié par MerinTB, 17 juillet 2013 - 06:15 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

Taint Master wrote...

Do you really expect me to take apart all of those terrible analogies?

I'll handle the driving/jogging one because it's just so ridiculous.  Of COURSE there's no reason for me to jog 2 miles if my goal is merely getting to my destination in a timely manner.  If my goal is exercise/getting fresh air etc,  then jogging is the better choice, but they serve two completely different functions.  That is nothing like the decision to skip or play a fight where my goal is simply to beat the encounter and progress through the game.  I can spend X minutes learning the mechanics, strategizing on my party composition, gear, plan of attack... or I can press one button and kill everything.

So what is your goal when playing RPGs?

Mine is to have fun.  As such, I play the game in a way that is fun for me.

[The Hierophant]

ejoslin wrote...

I guess my only counter to that is that there already is the option to skip dialogue

IIRC you can only skip individual lines (excluding a rare few) while it's still required that you choose a response, even when skipping lines. The team has yet to implement an option that allows you to skip dialogue rather than fast forward it.

[Nefla]

Taint Master wrote...
Ok so what about some of the other options discussed?  More diplomatic options to settle conflicts.  More covert/stealthy gameplay.  More deceptive persuasion choices etc.  On top of a better combat system, with less tedious "trash mob" fights.

All of those involve actually playing the game to progress and all routes would be perfectly valid and all offer a chance to fail.

Why is the go-to solution to let the AI run the fights over and over until you get a pass?  That sounds like the least imaginitive option to me.

EDIT: And it's really not about forcing people to play "my" way.  It seems a bit odd to label content gating as "my" way
when it's been the industry standard forever...  Want to beat Super Mario?  Well... play it!

Alternate options such as persuasion and stealth mixed with combat I actually like WOULD be my preference, but I really don't see it happening. A no encounters spell or skip combat button would be far easier to implement and would have a much better chance of happening than a complete rework of the game's mechanics. I would be satisfied witha no encounters ring or something that lets me avoid random encounters but I still have to fight bosses. Couple this with no level scaling and it would mean far fewer yet more challenging battles that might actually be entertaining instead of 30+hours of Press A To Win!

[Realmzmaster]

ejoslin wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

I think the fear some posters have is that the developers will not work as hard on combat and random encounters if a skip combat button is implemented. Whether that is true or not is immaterial because some gamers perceive that to be the case. That perception leads them to protect that aspect of game play.
The same could be said for the skip dialogue implementation. Early crpgs had no way of skipping the dialogue. In fact you could not because there were no real cut scenes like in present crpgs.
The earlier crpgs so called cut scenes were implemented like banter except with text that the gamer had to give a response..

I guess my only counter to that is that there already is the option to skip dialog, yet I think the writers work harder on that than any other part of the game.  If you have the ability to skip combat, that may actually be incentive to make combat more fun and interesting so people don't skip it their first few playthroughs, but instead look forward to it.

ETA: Or was that what you were getting at?  I'm not sure!  I do remember when dialog couldn't be skipped, though.  That was fine.  Combat often had me groaning even back then though.  Another slime?  URGH!

Any dialogue requiring a respose is not skippable. You can fast foward through individual lines until a response must be given. Very few gamers I know skip the dialogue in the first playthrough. I do know some gamers who play for the story and would be happy to skip the combat in the first playthrough.

I have no problem with the autowin button because that makes the game fun for them. The feeling I am getting from the anti-autowin button crowd is that somehow implementing this option would cause the developers to slack off on the combat gameplay aspect. Perception is a very powerful thing.

As i stated I would be concerned if the option affected how the developers approached combat gameplay.

[Realmzmaster]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Taint Master wrote...

Do you really expect me to take apart all of those terrible analogies?

I'll handle the driving/jogging one because it's just so ridiculous.  Of COURSE there's no reason for me to jog 2 miles if my goal is merely getting to my destination in a timely manner.  If my goal is exercise/getting fresh air etc,  then jogging is the better choice, but they serve two completely different functions.  That is nothing like the decision to skip or play a fight where my goal is simply to beat the encounter and progress through the game.  I can spend X minutes learning the mechanics, strategizing on my party composition, gear, plan of attack... or I can press one button and kill everything.

So what is your goal when playing RPGs?

Mine is to have fun.  As such, I play the game in a way that is fun for me.

I have to agree with Sylvius the Mad. I do not see how implementing an autowin button affects your enjoyment of the game? If another person wishes to use it how does that affect your single player game?
It does not. It is simply an option that a person can use or not use.

[luna1124]

To me, combat is a part of the game and most of the time I enjoy it.

[Realmzmaster]

luna1124 wrote...

To me, combat is a part of the game and most of the time I enjoy it.

What about the times you do not enjoy it would you like to have a feature that allows you to skip it?

[KotorEffect3]

I prefer that combat be tactical and challenging (like DAO, even at lower difficulty settings that game would make you actualy work to win your fights) so I can earn my way to the next part of the story. It is always rewarding when after getting through a tough fight to see what is in store for my character.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Realmzmaster wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

So what is your goal when playing RPGs?

Mine is to have fun.  As such, I play the game in a way that is fun for me.

I have to agree with Sylvius the Mad. I do not see how implementing an autowin button affects your enjoyment of the game? If another person wishes to use it how does that affect your single player game?
It does not. It is simply an option that a person can use or not use.

I asked because Taint Master's position is consistent with his goal being merely to complete the game.  If that's his goal, he has no reason not to use the Autowin button.

But if he is then dissatisfied with the outcome (the victory was too easy and wasn't satisfying), that suggests that he has misidentified his own objectives.

It's much like the saying "the end justifies the means."  Some people object to that, but that objection is, I think, clearly absurd.  If ever you think the ends don't jusify the means, that suggests you just haven't defined your desired ends well enough.

[ioannisdenton]

KotorEffect3 wrote...

I prefer that combat be tactical and challenging (like DAO, even at lower difficulty settings that game would make you actualy work to win your fights) so I can earn my way to the next part of the story. It is always rewarding when after getting through a tough fight to see what is in store for my character.

but dragon age origins was very easy, even o hard or nightmare difficulty..
Mages were overpwered and ive beaten the game on noghtmare with 3 2h warriors. I do jot consider myself a badass player though, not at all. DaO felt too easy. And slow. I want to repaly it but the combat a
nd the few talents turns me off

[KotorEffect3]

@ioannisdenton easy for you might not be easy for someone else. I don't consider myself a crappy player or anything either. Either way that isn't the point I was trying to make anyway. I was just using it as an example because I did find it challenging (I thought it was harder than DA 2) and I want a game to challenge me so I get a sense of satsifaction when I do advance through it's story.

[Realmzmaster]

KotorEffect3 wrote...

@ioannisdenton easy for you might not be easy for someone else. I don't consider myself a crappy player or anything either. Either way that isn't the point I was trying to make anyway. I was just using it as an example because I did find it challenging (I thought it was harder than DA 2) and I want a game to challenge me so I get a sense of satsifaction when I do advance through it's story.

I understand your position, but what does it have to do with some else wanting an autowin button for their personal single player playthrough?

[MerinTB]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
It's much like the saying "the end justifies the means."  Some people object to that, but that objection is, I think, clearly absurd.  If ever you think the ends don't jusify the means, that suggests you just haven't defined your desired ends well enough.

I...



No, but seriously, that is...



To say that...



dammit



Okay, I will freely admit that you are absolutely right on paper.  You are clearly right, in fact, that if the ends don't justify the means then of course you have the wrong ends.

I'll kill twelve people to save twenty!
No!  The ends don't justify the means!
Uhm, yes they do.  My end it to save as many people as possible.  Twenty is higher than twelve.  Killing the twelve to save twenty is definitionally justified by my ends.
But killing those twelve is wrong!
I didn't say that my ends were to not kill anyone, or to save everyone.
But they should be!
Those are your ends.  Not mine.

Yes, you are right.

If you disregard what people really mean when they say that old saw, which is not preciesly what the words, by themselves, directly state.  There is a different implied meaning...



... and there I lost you.

[KotorEffect3]

@Realmzmaster I think even in story driven games combat and gameplay should play a key role in driving the plot and player character forward. After all we are still playing a game. I have no problem with super easy difficulty settings where we can just breeze through the combat if we want but devs need to make developing and improving their gameplay in their games a priority and if you have a "skip combat" button then you start getting away from that.

[Realmzmaster]

KotorEffect3 wrote...

@Realmzmaster I think even in story driven games combat and gameplay should play a key role in driving the plot and player character forward. After all we are still playing a game. I have no problem with super easy difficulty settings where we can just breeze through the combat if we want but devs need to make developing and improving their gameplay in their games a priority and if you have a "skip combat" button then you start getting away from that.

Skip combat does not stop a developer from refining the gameplay. It is simply an option that the developer provides for those who are interested in only the plot. The skip combat button is already in the PC version. You simply access the console and kill all hostiles. That has been in Bioware games since NWN. The only difference is moving it to the interface as an option for all platforms.

Modifié par Realmzmaster, 17 juillet 2013 - 09:39 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

MerinTB wrote...

Okay, I will freely admit that you are absolutely right on paper.

I win again.

But they should be!

I'll freely admit that that's a discussion worth having.  What should the desired ends be?  But if we haven't determined that, yet, then the question of whether those ends justify our means is nonsensical.  We can't know whether the ends justify the means until we define our desired ends.

If you disregard what people really mean when they say that old saw,
which is not preciesly what the words, by themselves, directly state. 
There is a different implied meaning...



... and there I lost you.

My worldview really does hold together quite well.  It's just different from everyone else's.

And better.

Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 17 juillet 2013 - 10:53 .

[AutumnWitch]

I loved the combat in DA2 esp as a mage.... very exciting and I am a pacifist...but its all in good fun, It can be very satisfying after a bad day at work LOL

[MerinTB]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
My worldview really does hold together quite well.  It's just different from everyone else's.

And better.

You can be insufferable in your ivory tower, you know that?  

[addiction21]

Wow Merin being told hes using logical fallacies wrong is just as good as when Sylvius gets called a fanboy.

As far as the thread topic. Its been a interesting read and I do not care one way or another.

[Sylvius the Mad]

MerinTB wrote...

You can be insufferable in your ivory tower, you know that?  

So I'm told.

[The Hierophant]

<points @ Rubios> HEATHEN!

[philippe willaume]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

So what is your goal when playing RPGs?

Mine is to have fun.  As such, I play the game in a way that is fun for me.

I have to agree with Sylvius the Mad. I do not see how implementing an autowin button affects your enjoyment of the game? If another person wishes to use it how does that affect your single player game?
It does not. It is simply an option that a person can use or not use.

I asked because Taint Master's position is consistent with his goal being merely to complete the game.  If that's his goal, he has no reason not to use the Autowin button.

But if he is then dissatisfied with the outcome (the victory was too easy and wasn't satisfying), that suggests that he has misidentified his own objectives.

It's much like the saying "the end justifies the means."  Some people object to that, but that objection is, I think, clearly absurd.  If ever you think the ends don't jusify the means, that suggests you just haven't defined your desired ends well enough.

or that some unforcasted events makes the obtentions of the desired ends uncompatible with your ethics.
phil

Modifié par philippe willaume, 18 juillet 2013 - 08:13 .