809 réponses à ce sujet

[o Ventus]

I can't fathom why somebody would want to skip combat.

Unless skipping entire areas of travel is also an option, the game will play out like this:

Travel on-foot to NPC -> NPC is hostile; fight ensues -> fight is skipped -> continue running to town -> repeat ad infinitum for each quest that takes place outside the current town.

That isn't a game, that's a running simulator with occasional breaks to talk to people. Nevermind that if there's no combat, how do you level up your character to increase things like Persuasion skills?

Modifié par o Ventus, 18 juillet 2013 - 09:29 .

[xkg]

o Ventus wrote...
I can't fathom why somebody would want to skip combat.

Easy, because he doesn't want to play this part of the game.

I watch the entire SG-1 serie for the n-th time now, and there are lot of episodes that I skip.

o Ventus wrote...
Unless skipping entire areas of travel is also an option, the game will play out like this:

Travel on-foot to NPC -> NPC is hostile; fight ensues -> fight is skipped -> continue running to town -> repeat ad infinitum for each quest that takes place outside the current town.

(*) Yes, that exactly how it would look like, for those who choosed to skip the combat.
It's their game, their business, no one else's.

o Ventus wrote...
That isn't a game, that's a running simulator with occasional breaks to talk to people.

Somoene else "running simulator with occasional breaks to talk to people" on his computer wouldn't affect you in any way.

And it doesn't matter whether you consider it to be a game or not, you can do choose to not use this option.
And if you do, this problem doesn't concern you.

o Ventus wrote...
Nevermind that if there's no combat, how do you level up your character to increase things like Persuasion skills?

I didn't know you can learn how to persuade people by fighting them.

But nevermind that, It would look like this.
1."Skipt the combat"   
2."Get exp for winning the fight".
Now go read ^^^ up, where I marked it with (*) if this answer bothers you.


Anyway, I don't remember any persuasion skill in DA2, heck I don't remember ANY non-combat skills/attributes being there.
Unless it is cofirmed for them to come back this is unrelevant to this topic.

Modifié par xkg, 18 juillet 2013 - 10:58 .

[o Ventus]

xkg wrote...

Snip

I know that it doesn't affect me. I was only curious as to how people could find that fun. Having recently played KoTOR, that was the worst part of the game for me (other than the d20 hit/miss combat), just running at moderately slow speeds over long stretches. It was also never said in the thread (the parts I saw anyway) that skipping combat would grant XP. You'll forgive me for not being psychic and not knowing that beforehand.

But no, your passive-aggressive hostility was warranted.

[Arakat]

o Ventus wrote...
That isn't a game, that's a running simulator with occasional breaks to talk to people. Nevermind that if there's no combat, how do you level up your character to increase things like Persuasion skills?

Using that logic, previous DA games have been running simulators with occasional breaks to either fight stuff or talk to people. Also, why couldn't the player just gain XP from completing quests, no matter how the quests are completed?

video games != combat. Believe or not, there are games with no combat and they still are video games.

Personally, I think combat is fun on the first playthrough (although I do see it more as an obligatory minigame rather than as an essential part of my gaming experience). But during replays, the combat can get tedious, because I've seen all the fights before, and I'm really just playing to get to see how different choices affect the story. So I do wish there would be an optional in-game way to skip combat for those who want it.

[o Ventus]

arakat wrote...

video games != combat. Believe or not, there are games with no combat and they still are video games.

I am fully aware of this. Dragon Age is not one of them.

In many (and by "many", I mean "almost all") western RPGs, combat is the "game" part of the video game, with stat and talent allocation typically following suit.

Modifié par o Ventus, 18 juillet 2013 - 11:22 .

[Arakat]

o Ventus wrote...

arakat wrote...

video games != combat. Believe or not, there are games with no combat and they still are video games.

I am fully aware of this. Dragon Age is not one of them.

In many (and by "many", I mean "almost all") western RPGs, combat is the "game" part of the video game, with stat and talent allocation typically following suit.

Well, in that case, maybe you should have written "that isn't a DA game" or "that isn't an RPG" instead of this (bolding mine):

o Ventus wrote...

That isn't a game, that's a running simulator with occasional breaks to talk to people.

But why does combat and combat-related stats alone need to be considered the "game" part? The way I see it, dialogue, traveling, etc. are just as interactive, so I really don't understand why they're not seen as "the game" when they clearly are an important part of the game. Besides, this particular aspect is a bit irrelevant to the discussion at hand, because nobody's suggesting removing combat, merely skipping it. And I believe the people who would like to skip combat are the people who define "the game" the same way as I do.

[o Ventus]

arakat wrote...

Well, in that case, maybe you should have written "that isn't a DA game" or "that isn't an RPG" instead of this (bolding mine):

I didn't think that somebody would mistake my comment (which is within the context of an RPG, on a website about an RPG) as being about something else. I know people are stupid, but I doubt they're THAT stupid.

But why does combat and combat-related stats alone need to be considered the "game" part? The way I see it, dialogue, traveling, etc. are just as interactive, so I really don't understand why they're not seen as "the game" when they clearly are an important part of the game. Besides, this particular aspect is a bit irrelevant to the discussion at hand, because nobody's suggesting removing combat, merely skipping it. And I believe the people who would like to skip combat are the people who define "the game" the same way as I do.

"Game" has a pretty objective meaning.

Noun
A form of play or sport, esp. a competitive one played according to rules and decided by skill, strength, or luck.

Modifié par o Ventus, 18 juillet 2013 - 11:42 .

[xkg]

o Ventus wrote...

xkg wrote...

Snip

1) It was also never said in the thread (the parts I saw anyway) that skipping combat would grant XP.
2) You'll forgive me for not being psychic and not knowing that beforehand.

1) It was, so I fixed the quote^.  Ok then, 20 page is a lot to read, you could have missed that.
2) No problem.

o Ventus wrote...
But no, your passive-aggressive hostility was warranted.

Hostile, not. I am rarely hostile.
Passive-aggressive. Yeah maybe, but not on purpose. This is just the way I talk, one of my flaws you can say.
Don't take it personally.

Modifié par xkg, 18 juillet 2013 - 12:03 .

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

o Ventus wrote...

I can't fathom why somebody would want to skip combat.

Unless skipping entire areas of travel is also an option, the game will play out like this:

Travel on-foot to NPC -> NPC is hostile; fight ensues -> fight is skipped -> continue running to town -> repeat ad infinitum for each quest that takes place outside the current town.

What makes you think that the people asking for an option to speed up/skip combat would use this on every combat? Who has said this? Where? Please quote it for us.

That isn't a game, that's a running simulator with occasional breaks to talk to people.

It still amuses me that people think exploration, dialogue, codices and non-combat quests aren't part of the game.

Nevermind that if there's no combat, how do you level up your character to increase things like Persuasion skills?

You do realise that you get experience in Dragon Age for more than killing stuff, right?

[Arakat]

o Ventus wrote...

arakat wrote...

Well, in that case, maybe you should have written "that isn't a DA game" or "that isn't an RPG" instead of this (bolding mine):

I didn't think that somebody would mistake my comment (which is within the context of an RPG, on a website about an RPG) as being about something else. I know people are stupid, but I doubt they're THAT stupid.

(Getting completely offtopic): I'm sorry, but if you talk about "a [insert noun]" with no further specifications, people will think that you talk about [insert the same noun in plural] in general. Even though we are on the DA forum, people talk about games in general, and unless they specify that they mean a specific game or a specific genre, other people will think that they are speaking about games in general. That's how language works.

o Ventus wrote...

But why does combat and combat-related stats alone need to be considered the "game" part? The way I see it, dialogue, traveling, etc. are just as interactive, so I really don't understand why they're not seen as "the game" when they clearly are an important part of the game. Besides, this particular aspect is a bit irrelevant to the discussion at hand, because nobody's suggesting removing combat, merely skipping it. And I believe the people who would like to skip combat are the people who define "the game" the same way as I do.

"Game" has a pretty objective meaning.

Noun
A form of play or sport, esp. a competitive one played according to rules and decided by skill, strength, or luck.

... I really don't see what you're trying to say. You're the one who started subjectively defining what is "the game part" of a DA game, and I answered that I don't see it the same way. That definition actually supports my view that there is no "game part", that the entirety of a Dragon Age game consists of all the different aspects of the game, not just combat.

Modifié par arakat, 18 juillet 2013 - 01:15 .

[luna1124]

Realmzmaster wrote...

luna1124 wrote...

To me, combat is a part of the game and most of the time I enjoy it.

What about the times you do not enjoy it would you like to have a feature that allows you to skip it?

Well, I have used a mod  (skip battle) during testing to get through a place in a hurry, but when I play regular, I don't mind the battles.
It is an RPG and battles are part of the game. If you are really into your game, you know that in real life, you can't just skip a fight unless it is with a human you can talk out of it. I guess an option to avoid battles could be put in, like the one with the bandits on the road (ambush them or sneak past them) in DAO.

[xkg]

luna1124 wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

luna1124 wrote...

To me, combat is a part of the game and most of the time I enjoy it.

What about the times you do not enjoy it would you like to have a feature that allows you to skip it?

It is an RPG and battles are part of the game. If you are really into your game, you know that in real life, you can't just skip a fight unless it is with a human you can talk out of it.

So is traveling. It is said it would take about one day to get from Redcliff  to the Circle Tower. I don't remember waiting that long.
In real life I would have to walk for the entire day, yet here it is done in a matter of seconds.

Modifié par xkg, 18 juillet 2013 - 01:38 .

[MerinTB]

xkg wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

xkg wrote...
Snip

1) It was also never said in the thread (the parts I saw anyway) that skipping combat would grant XP.
2) You'll forgive me for not being psychic and not knowing that beforehand.

1) It was, so I fixed the quote^.  Ok then, 20 page is a lot to read, you could have missed that.
2) No problem.

While I, personally, have no problem with a "skip combat entirely" option  (like L.A. Noire has,) that's not what many are suggesting.  There's a "fast forward combat" option, probably mostly like what RTS's allow, and then there's what I'm advocating, the "auto-resolve" which, as has been repeated ad nasuem, can be found in games like Wizard's Crown (a tactical, turn-based cRPG that is HEAVILY focused on combat) or in any of the Total War games (which combat is at least half the game.)

Sooooo, there's the part you are missing that "fast forward" and "auto-resolve" would grant the combat XP as per normal. Those suggestions have been a major part of the thread.

You are also missing the even more central concept that XP doesn't have to be tied to combat.  A lot of table-top RPGs have done away with "kill XP", and you can find cRPGs that do so as well.  The upcoming Dead State will not grant any rewards for fighting, except survival if you win.  And one of the best cRPGs ever made, Vampire - The Masquerade: Bloodlines, doesn't grant XP for killing things either.

In case you have been missing it, someone responds to you and I've quoted it below -

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

o Ventus wrote...
That isn't a game, that's a running simulator with occasional breaks to talk to people.

It still amuses me that people think exploration, dialogue, codices and non-combat quests aren't part of the game.

o Ventus wrote...
Nevermind that if there's no combat, how do you level up your character to increase things like Persuasion skills?

You do realise that you get experience in Dragon Age for more than killing stuff, right?

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

o Ventus wrote...
I can't fathom why somebody would want to skip combat.

Unless skipping entire areas of travel is also an option, the game will play out like this:

Travel
on-foot to NPC -> NPC is hostile; fight ensues -> fight is
skipped -> continue running to town -> repeat ad infinitum for
each quest that takes place outside the current town.

What makes you think that the people asking for an option to speed up/skip combat would use this on every combat? Who has said this? Where? Please quote it for us.

I know, for a fact, that I have repeatedly stated that I think it would be a useful option for people who get tired of slogging through random encounters or filler fights, for people who don't have 128 hours to put into a play of DA:O like I did, and for people who've played the game a time or more before and are more interested in the story and the story-important fights, and not all the random spiders and rats between you and your goal.

I've played lots of Total War.  I LOVE the combat in Total War.  But it is a long game, and there are many times where I have sent a huge force to eliminate a very small one.   That battle won't be worth the time to deploy - so auto-resolve it is.  There are also very, very large fights that would take a very, very long time to finish, but I'm still fairly confident in my forces, so I auto-resolve to not have to kill hours on one battle.

Dawn of War RTS's allowed this in the later expansions, like Soulstorm.

Modifié par MerinTB, 18 juillet 2013 - 01:42 .

[MerinTB]

xkg wrote...

luna1124 wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

luna1124 wrote...
To me, combat is a part of the game and most of the time I enjoy it.

What about the times you do not enjoy it would you like to have a feature that allows you to skip it?

It is an RPG and battles are part of the game. If you are really into your game, you know that in real life, you can't just skip a fight unless it is with a human you can talk out of it.

So is traveling. It is said it would take about one day to get from Redcliff  to the Circle Tower. I don't remember waiting that long.
In real life I would have to walk for the entire day, yet here it is done in a matter of seconds.

This "you can't skip a fight in real life" is so ridiculous.  You can't skip SLEEPING, either.  Or eating.  Or taking a dump.
But all of that is "hand-waved" in the game.

You can't fast-forward healing from several sword-wounds to the torso and being burned by acid - but the game let's you heal in seconds after combat ends.

[o Ventus]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

What makes you think that the people asking for an option to speed up/skip combat would use this on every combat? Who has said this? Where? Please quote it for us.

I'll do that just as soon as you quote the part where I said the bolded.

It still amuses me that people think exploration, dialogue, codices and non-combat quests aren't part of the game.

Gameplay =! Game. Exploration and non-combat quests qualify as gameplay. Dialogue is fuzzier. The codex is straight-up not.

You do realise that you get experience in Dragon Age for more than killing stuff, right?

I'm fully aware. That doesn't mean that the vast majority of XP gains in DA (and other western RPGs) aren't done via combat. Which was my point. You can get your point across without being overtly hostile.

[Zazzerka]

What sort of discussion was this topic meant to inspire, anyway? People can only agree, since every single argument against it can be met with "It's just an option."/"It doesn't affect you." Every single one.

It'd be more suited for a poll.

[MerinTB]

o Ventus wrote...
That doesn't mean that the vast majority of XP gains in DA (and other western RPGs) aren't done via combat. Which was my point. You can get your point across without being overtly hostile.

Again, there are plenty of "western RPGs" that don't reward for killing but for completing quests.

Witcher 3 looks to be going that route.  Deus Ex went that route.

[o Ventus]

MerinTB wrote...

o Ventus wrote...
That doesn't mean that the vast majority of XP gains in DA (and other western RPGs) aren't done via combat. Which was my point. You can get your point across without being overtly hostile.

Again, there are plenty of "western RPGs" that don't reward for killing but for completing quests.

Witcher 3 looks to be going that route.  Deus Ex went that route.

I also said "majority". I can name just as many, if not more RPGs that DO.

[MerinTB]

o Ventus wrote...

MerinTB wrote...

o Ventus wrote...
That doesn't mean that the vast majority of XP gains in DA (and other western RPGs) aren't done via combat. Which was my point. You can get your point across without being overtly hostile.

Again, there are plenty of "western RPGs" that don't reward for killing but for completing quests.

Witcher 3 looks to be going that route.  Deus Ex went that route.

I also said "majority". I can name just as many, if not more RPGs that DO.

But they CLEARLY don't have to.  Games that are very successful, whether financially, critically or cult-classic-beloved, have used no xp per kill mechanics.

And since they don't have to, arguing that they have to is pointless.

Sorry, you are saying most do it.  And... so... what?  If most do it... what?

If you aren't saying they SHOULD do it because most do it, what are you saying?  That we should be used to it?

I don't get the argument.

You don't have to give xp per kill, meaning combat doesn't need to be the source of XP.  This is done frequent enough not to be an outlier.  So saying "most" games DO give xp per kill / from combat is a non-sequitor.

Most RPGs don't offer companions.  Most RPGs don't do dialog options.  Most RPGs are not in space.  So... BioWare should stop all of that?

What is your point about "most western ones" do it?

My point - to be clear - is that xp for kills / combat is not necessary, and there are a number of examples of "successful" games that avoid xp for kills, so the concern of a "skip combat" option resulting in less XP is being exceedingly myopic.

Beyond the fact that much of this thread's discussion is NOT about completely skipping nor about auto-win, which so many opponents keep focusing on. <_<

The OP was asking for something, anything, to make the game go a bit faster so he'd not have to deal with endless waves.  They listed that, in the past, they would just set the game to casual to make boring or tedious combats quicker but for DA2 this tactic didn't help much.  OP also suggested perhaps setting waves to one or some such as a possibility, even if it granted less XP.

To which the discussion has long since moved on to the overall concept of players who find endless combat tedious at times and wouldn't mind some way to "speed up" the filler stuff.

"Auto-win" and "skip entirely" have been the options brought up, almost exclusively, by either detractors of doing anything or by those who wouldn't mind the option but don't have this concern and wouldn't use it.

Modifié par MerinTB, 18 juillet 2013 - 06:37 .

[Realmzmaster]

One of the best RPG of all time PST (Planescape Torment) rewards the protagonist for using non-lethal means of solving the quest. Deus Ex: Human Revolution and Alpha Protocol also come to mind. In fact more points are awarded if the protagonist can complete the quest without violence. Only the boss fights require violence and in PST that is not necessary. The vast majority of points are assigned for completing the quest and not killing the enemy.

Designers can design the game for different playstyles. Deus Ex playstyles can be Combat, Social, Hack or Stealth. The protagonist is free to choose among the styles and can switch if necessary.

Allowing for choice in different playstyles is good. The autowin or other ways of speeding up combat is just a way for designers to cater to different playstyles.

Why do you some posters feel that all gamers must play the game the same way?

Modifié par Realmzmaster, 18 juillet 2013 - 09:30 .

[Mercedes-Benz]

You mean like with that Geth gun that killed with 1 shot in Mass Effect?

Modifié par Mercedes-Benz, 18 juillet 2013 - 07:08 .

[xkg]

MerinTB wrote...
*snip - the latest post*

Realmzmaster wrote...
*snip - the latest post*

Well said. I see it like that:

Can they spent some of their development time/resources on this ?

No/Not much  -  killallhostiles-like script linked to a button, aka "Auto-Win"
Yes  - complex scripting to determine the outcome of the battle linked to a button, aka "Auto-Resolve".

The best case sceanrio - both options implemented.
The more options, the better.

Modifié par xkg, 18 juillet 2013 - 07:16 .

[Nefla]

Anyone playing a BioWare game for the combat instead of the story/characters/lore/dialogue is doing it wrong...