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Can we have an option to get combat over with real fast?


809 réponses à ce sujet

#626
Fast Jimmy

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MerinTB wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

outlaworacle wrote...

If you want to skip the combat for the story, go to Youtube. 

/thread.

Seriously, if you can't be bothered to PLAY the game you are playing... maybe don't play it? I mean what is this I don't even

For those people, the "game" portion of the game isn't combat. It's the way they can experience the story with lots of reactive choices. And combat is simply a filler activity to get the game able to put "20-40 hours" on the back of the box. 


Thank you.


I live to serve, good sir. I live to serve.

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 22 juillet 2013 - 11:23 .


#627
Realmzmaster

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outlaworacle wrote...

If you want to skip the combat for the story, go to Youtube.

/thread.

Seriously, if you can't be bothered to PLAY the game you are playing... maybe don't play it? I mean what is this I don't even


Who says they are not playing the game. Many gamers play Bioware games for the story (which involves choice and consequence) not for the combat. A video on youtube shows the choices someone else made not the choices the gamer would make for his/her character. So going to youtube does not work.

Many gamers see the combat part as the filler part that is in between the parts they really wish to deal with. That is a very valid concern.

@Fast Jimmy

Wizard's Crown and Enternal Dagger are crpgs with a tactical bent. DAO is a crpg with a tactical bent. Wizard's Crown and Enternal Dagger (SSI) had no problem with auto resolve. The game could be played either way. The player manually did the battles or could at any time let autoresolve handle the battle.

If a person chooses to use autresolve or autowin that is a choice.

For example if you manually control the battle the gamer may be able to save the princess and friend , only one of them or none of them.  Autoresolve can do the same action. If the party is powerful enough both are saved if not one or the other is saved. The program can calculated the results and present the delimma to the gamer. The gamer can decide who to save. The results can  be tied into cutscenes to continue the story. Combat and story need not be segregated.

The problem of a sub-optimal build occurs even if the game manually controls the party. Many times gamers get lucky in combat and not due to superior tactics. Autoresolve also has no trouble accounting for luck. Luck can be part of the mathematical mix.

If the party is not strong enough that is game over. Same if playing manually.

#628
Fast Jimmy

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If a person chooses to use autresolve or autowin that is a choice.


The program can calculated the results and present the delimma to the gamer.


This is my problem, in a nutshell. You're talking about incorporating decision engines, user prompts, pre-selected cutscenes, variable tracking through multiple means (in game action versus auto-generated outcome)... all for a choice. An optional way to play the game. It is a lot of work for one feature. Especially one feature that can present many of the same perks with a much more conservative use of resources (having a difficulty where the player has huge damage resistances and does huge damage modifiers to enemies).

I'm not saying it isn't possible. In the world of programming, nothing is truly impossible given enough time and money.

I just think that what is being requested (a way to circumvent boring, tedious combat) can be more easily and effectively answered by a Narrative difficulty (which is an easy option to implement) and better encounter design (which benefits everyone, not just a subset).

#629
dekkerd

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outlaworacle wrote...

If you want to skip the combat for the story, go to Youtube.

/thread.

Seriously, if you can't be bothered to PLAY the game you are playing... maybe don't play it? I mean what is this I don't even


unbelievable insight there. Too bad no one though of it in the 20+ pages before your post.

oh wait, they did. 

Original point was to have a true casual mode, something da2 lacked. Plot branching happens in between combat, so we will have to disagree on which (conversation or combat) represents core gameplay. 

This thread is example #1 on why we need thread mute on the forums. Talking circles since page 3. 

#630
Fast Jimmy

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^

I would prefer a mute for individuals, not entire threads.

#631
dekkerd

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Fast Jimmy wrote...

^

I would prefer a mute for individuals, not entire threads.


oh both. It's not an either/or thing. 

#632
Sister Goldring

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So am I the only one who thinks that the auto resolve feature has the advantage of sounding massively fun?

To set up all your tactics in advance and not be able to change them as the combat unfolds. I think it could add another level of interest to combat particularly if enemies get to use the same abilities that the player has access to. Ideally in this circumstance I'd like to see the battle play out in real time because that would be COOL and we'd need massive tactics options but I'd love it! I really enjoy tactics and if I have to take control of my companions during the encounter I feel like I've somehow already lost the battle (full disclosure you have to use the expanded tactics mod though otherwise you're screwed).

Anyway this is really just a side point but I was just wondering if in addition to providing those with an option to speed up stuff that they don't enjoy an auto resolve option could add a new layer of interest for those of us who like combat but might enjoy changing things up a little sometimes. Is there any reason that if they can auto resolve the combat and not show it on the screen that they couldn't auto resolve the combat and show it play out too?

I don't really know if this is something that's achievable but I do know I would totally try it out.

#633
Fast Jimmy

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dekkerd wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

^

I would prefer a mute for individuals, not entire threads.


oh both. It's not an either/or thing. 


Eh. You don't have to click on a thread if you've deemed it not worth your time. If you've deemed it worth your time, but there are people in it who make you do nothing but weep for the future of all mankind, then there's no way you can know that beforehand until you're already weeping. 

Best to eliminate the sources of tears and then just ignore threads you see being pointless. In my humble (and highly off-topic) opinion, of course. 

#634
Nefla

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Fast Jimmy wrote...

^

I'm not sure obscure, late-game loot to avoid random encounters (as is often the case in JRPGs) is the best method to solve issues for people who fundamentally dislike slogging through the majority of combat encounters. Seems like putting a band-aid on a lost limb.


it would work if it was something you got early in the game, or even a NG+ reward.

#635
Fast Jimmy

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Nefla wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

^

I'm not sure obscure, late-game loot to avoid random encounters (as is often the case in JRPGs) is the best method to solve issues for people who fundamentally dislike slogging through the majority of combat encounters. Seems like putting a band-aid on a lost limb.


it would work if it was something you got early in the game, or even a NG+ reward.


If that's the case, then it may as well be a feature integrated into the gameplay, rather than a trinket given early to all players, as the devs will have to account for it anyway during their design if that's the case. * Something I have less problems with than an auto skip/resolve button, but which runs into some leveling/balance issues and what advantage a player would have to doing all the extra encounters/side quests when the primary quest like would require so little level advancement.

#636
Realmzmaster

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Fast Jimmy wrote...

If a person chooses to use autresolve or autowin that is a choice.


The program can calculated the results and present the delimma to the gamer.


This is my problem, in a nutshell. You're talking about incorporating decision engines, user prompts, pre-selected cutscenes, variable tracking through multiple means (in game action versus auto-generated outcome)... all for a choice. An optional way to play the game. It is a lot of work for one feature. Especially one feature that can present many of the same perks with a much more conservative use of resources (having a difficulty where the player has huge damage resistances and does huge damage modifiers to enemies).

I'm not saying it isn't possible. In the world of programming, nothing is truly impossible given enough time and money.

I just think that what is being requested (a way to circumvent boring, tedious combat) can be more easily and effectively answered by a Narrative difficulty (which is an easy option to implement) and better encounter design (which benefits everyone, not just a subset).


All of this is already in the game. The tactics for companions already use decision engines. All the cutscenes have user prompts. Tracking already occurs with manual combat. The program already checks to see if a companion goes unconcious, or is injured. Bioware at one time had the program's AI controlling all the party members. The program still runs the other three depending on which one the gamer is controlling. The program could literally run the battle itself which basically is an autoresolve. The resources are already spent.

The problem with having huge damage resistance and huge damage modifiers is that the gamer still has to play through the combat. The point is that some do not wish to play through the combat. Others want to speed up the combat. You suggest speeds up the combat but does not address the option to skip the combat.

#637
MerinTB

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Sister Goldring wrote...
So am I the only one who thinks that the auto resolve feature has the advantage of sounding massively fun?

To set up all your tactics in advance and not be able to change them as the combat unfolds. I think it could add another level of interest to combat particularly if enemies get to use the same abilities that the player has access to. Ideally in this circumstance I'd like to see the battle play out in real time because that would be COOL and we'd need massive tactics options but I'd love it! I really enjoy tactics and if I have to take control of my companions during the encounter I feel like I've somehow already lost the battle (full disclosure you have to use the expanded tactics mod though otherwise you're screwed).


You aren't the only one.

I think sometimes it is fun to watch your crew do their thing while sitting back to watch the mayhem unfold.

I'm fairly certain there are games out there that you can set to have no manual input and you can watch the battles unfold.

#638
Sister Goldring

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@MerinTB - always good to uncover a fellow tactics nerd.  Image IPB

#639
Dot.Shadow

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I liked DA2's combat. It was fun. Not as tactical as DAO's combat, but certainly more fun. From what I read they're doing a mix of the two. I think it'll be good really.

#640
Nefla

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This thread has got me reminiscing about DA2's combat and man...I can't do that again. There is no way I can suffer through another game with that excessive amount of awful combat. I really hope they improve it for DA3 because otherwise I don't know if I want to buy it at all.

#641
Fast Jimmy

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All of this is already in the game. The tactics for companions already use decision engines. All the cutscenes have user prompts. Tracking already occurs with manual combat. The program already checks to see if a companion goes unconcious, or is injured. Bioware at one time had the program's AI controlling all the party members. The program still runs the other three depending on which one the gamer is controlling. The program could literally run the battle itself which basically is an autoresolve. The resources are already spent.


I'd say this is a bit misleading. Saying that decision engines exist within the game, so therefore any future decision engines would require no work is like saying animations for talking already exist in the game, so any new scenes that use animation wouldn't require any work, either. Which we know is not the case.

There is a decision engine so that the companion AI knows when and how to use Tactics, but there is no decision engine to calculate which tactics work best against others or to calculate things like how fast a unit moves across the field of battle, or how far they would have to travel to get to their target, or a number of other factors that the system would have to take into account. Despite logic to the contrary, such auto-resolve systems cannot just "play it all out" in the background without building additional logic and systems that replicate the events that go on in the Production environment.

If you are instead talking about having the action play out, just without player input, that would be nice (and not a huge cost), but it wouldn't speed things up much. Alternatively, if you were to offer an actual "fast-forward" button, this would need to build such a feature into the interface. In addition, there may be a very valid question of if the systems in question (especially the consoles) can HANDLE all of the action in question moving in fast forward, from a graphic-processing point of view. If not, would combat itself need to be scaled back to have less enemies/less active abilities/less visual effects, etc.? Again, you're starting to talk about doing things at a different scale and in a different manner than what the rest of the combat experience currently is.

The problem with having huge damage resistance and huge damage modifiers is that the gamer still has to play through the combat. The point is that some do not wish to play through the combat. Others want to speed up the combat. You suggest speeds up the combat but does not address the option to skip the combat.


It does not, you are correct. I'm arguing that to get a true mechanism to skip combat will require more work and limitations than it brings to the table. To that end, I suggested a method which is easily implemented and resolves most of the concern (long, boring combat that drags on forever because of things like HP bloat and large numbers of enemies).

However, it should be noted that the best solution is not systems interface based, but design based. Namely, make combat more engaging. Make combat more dynamic, not boring. Give more instances of having the player invested in how combat plays out rather than just feeling like a passive bystander who is just bashing buttons. And give us a way to avoid combat altogether with noncombat skills that actually work - sneak skills that you would actually use, trap skills that can be used to skip combat entirely, dialogue options that difuse combat situations so that it is actually viable to play a pacifist character in most cases.

These are the real challenges that should be addressed. Not fast forward buttons or behind the scenes combat simulators.

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 23 juillet 2013 - 04:33 .


#642
Guest_EntropicAngel_*

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MerinTB wrote...

You aren't the only one.

I think sometimes it is fun to watch your crew do their thing while sitting back to watch the mayhem unfold.

I'm fairly certain there are games out there that you can set to have no manual input and you can watch the battles unfold.


*COUGHAdvancedTacticsModCOUGH*


I heartily, heartily support this for DA I.

#643
Sylvius the Mad

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MerinTB wrote...

You aren't the only one.

I think sometimes it is fun to watch your crew do their thing while sitting back to watch the mayhem unfold.

I'm fairly certain there are games out there that you can set to have no manual input and you can watch the battles unfold.

The first Dungeon Siege game had this.  Neither of the sequels did.

#644
Guest_EntropicAngel_*

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Sylvius the Mad wrote...

MerinTB wrote...

You aren't the only one.

I think sometimes it is fun to watch your crew do their thing while sitting back to watch the mayhem unfold.

I'm fairly certain there are games out there that you can set to have no manual input and you can watch the battles unfold.

The first Dungeon Siege game had this.  Neither of the sequels did.


It should be noted however, that "no manual input" is not the same thing as a set of "tactics" that you create and initiate--I've played a few games that allow you to put combat on autopilot (King's Bounty being another), but they don't always let you choose beforehand so you're left with (usually poorer than human control) AI.

#645
Jorji Costava

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Fast Jimmy wrote...

However, it should be noted that the best solution is not systems interface based, but design based. Namely, make combat more engaging. Make combat more dynamic, not boring. Give more instances of having the player invested in how combat plays out rather than just feeling like a passive bystander who is just bashing buttons. And give us a way to avoid combat altogether with noncombat skills that actually work - sneak skills that you would actually use, trap skills that can be used to skip combat entirely, dialogue options that difuse combat situations so that it is actually viable to play a pacifist character in most cases.


Does anyone know of a party-based RPG that implements stealth well? I haven't seen one myself. Just because the PC is a good sneak doesn't mean your party members are, so you have a choice between either making it the case that NPC incompetence blows your cover on a routine basis, or force the PC to separate himself or herself from the party whenever you want to make use of stealth. Alternatively, you could also just have your NPC's always be at good at stealth as the PC, but that would affect balance for rogue NPC's (i.e. they should always spec out of stealth, since they can just rely on your skill). It could also be a bit immersion breaking to have a stocky dwarf NPC with heavy armor moving as silently as a cat.

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

MerinTB wrote...

You aren't the only one.

I think sometimes it is fun to watch your crew do their thing while sitting back to watch the mayhem unfold.

I'm fairly certain there are games out there that you can set to have no manual input and you can watch the battles unfold.

The first Dungeon Siege game had this.  Neither of the sequels did.


You could go all the way back to Quest for Glory IV as well, although that's not a party-based game. You could adjust various sliders (Aggressiveness, Defense, etc.) and then watch your character do his thing in combat. There are probably all sorts of other examples even earlier than this.

#646
Fast Jimmy

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Does anyone know of a party-based RPG that implements stealth well? I haven't seen one myself. Just because the PC is a good sneak doesn't mean your party members are, so you have a choice between either making it the case that NPC incompetence blows your cover on a routine basis, or force the PC to separate himself or herself from the party whenever you want to make use of stealth.


I don't see what's wrong with this. I think breaking up the party for reasons like stealth, puzzles, trap avoidance, scouting enemies, deploying distractions and a host of other things are GREAT ideas. Huddling together to be a unified death squad means that the only encounter design that would be plausible is combat, combat, combat.

I think instances where the party is separated and the other companion NPCs are outside of the control of the player would be a great chance for story-telling and gameplay as well. What would happen if Sebastian and Anders were stuck behind a cave-in together? The player would have to struggle through with just a two-person party and, when they met back up, the two could be at each other's throats, or begrudgingly respectful of each other, depending on actions taken. Just as a "what if" scenario.

So much more can be done with RPGs than having an inseparable group of killers slaughter everything in their path. It is actually a little surprising (or even insulting?) that this is all we've seen, by and large.

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 23 juillet 2013 - 05:52 .


#647
Jorji Costava

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@Fast Jimmy:

Fair enough (actually, KOTOR II did a decent amount of this sort of thing), but I don't see how that will help much with the topic at hand, which is to find a way to avoid or speed up the more banal combat sequences. It would probably be a bit impractical to separate the party every time I want to sneak past a couple of Hurlocks I don't feel like fighting during a routine dungeon crawl. You then have the problem of figuring out how to get the party to regroup, given that they can't sneak the way you do, and solving that problem every time you use stealth to avoid an encounter is arguably as time-consuming as just actually doing the fighting would be.

#648
Fast Jimmy

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^

This wouldn't be a problem if enemy groups moved and roamed in a more realistic fashion, instead of remaining planted in one spot for all eternity until the player activates them to kill. You could sneak ahead, laying traps in case a group comes through (traps which would kill or incapacitate an enemy group, not do a small, minimal amount of damage like traps in DA:O). Then, once the immediate area is scouted and the enemies are moved out of the way, you can bring the rest of the party through.

Again, it would require smart encounter design. But if that was a priority over trying to figure out where an NPC should be standing or interacting with an object in dialogue or their particular demeanor when something was said, it could be possible. As one area is made a priority to develop and advance (like cinematic quality), others are given less focus (like trying to break the mold on encounter design or party makeup dynamics).

#649
Guest_Puddi III_*

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Another great thing Fort Drakon did well, limited in scope though it was-- showing different POVs from a separated party. Something they also did in FF games fairly often, tangentially.

I would hope for more instances like that rather than always being the four person death squad.

In that vein perhaps stealth sections could be solo, or accommodate a variable number of party members depending on how many rogues you have/ the oddball stealth mage character.

If I recall correctly it IS something they said they would continue to develop after MotA, for what that stealth mechanic was worth (felt like Ocarina of Time courtyards as I recall). I didn't like the whole "omnipresent Tallis" and lack of distinction for the rogue class in this section, however.

#650
Sylvius the Mad

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osbornep wrote...

force the PC to separate himself or herself from the party whenever you want to make use of stealth.

I like this option.  Let single party members (any party member - not just the PC) head out alone.

That's how KotOR did it.  And BG.