186 réponses à ce sujet

[Maria Caliban]

So 64 Flogs walk into a bar wrote...

 The other demons seem agendered in their looks, but a desire demon is clearly female. Just wondered why that was :innocent:

Because they were originally called the succubus. If you open up their model file in DA:O, they're still labeled that.

[Ridwan]

PsychoBlonde wrote...

M25105 wrote...

And yet that same place where the Empress rules has all male knights raping women left and right, cause they can. And in the Landsmeet I can't recall more than one woman.

You mean, apart from Anora, Grand Cleric Elemena, Ser Cauthrian, and Bann Alfstanna?

Anora is leader by default. Cauthrian is just an officer, not a ruler. That leaves Bann Alstanna and the Cleric and I don't see that Chantry all that powerful by most lords. It reminds me more of the pope, where rulers would pay lip service just to look good.

And even if all four counted, for every woman in the game in a position  of power there's probably at least 8 or more males. It's how things were in the old world.

Modifié par M25105, 06 juillet 2013 - 07:16 .

[PsychoBlonde]

Plaintiff wrote...

Kallimachus wrote...

PsychoBlonde wrote...

There isn't a desire demon in either game that offers anyone sex, though, so I doubt the apparent femininity of the desire demon is some kind of statement that only women are desirable. I think it is more due to the fact that women are viewed as being more vulnerable and sympathetic, and when you're trying to play on someone's desires so you can drain them dry they will be more likely to let their guard down if they view you as weak, nurturing, or caring. The desire demons who afflict people generally come across that way: let me HELP you. Let me TAKE CARE of you. We'll worry about the price later . . .

The other demons don't get mileage out of vulnerability but out of various efforts to deny it (pride, rage, hunger) so it wouldn't make sense for them to take on a feminine aspect. Nobody trusts a vain, angry, grasping woman, but in men these are often viewed as positive traits.

Are you serous? A mostly naked woman who continually caresses her breasts evokes in you a sense of vulnerability and sympathy? Tell me of a single person who would turn to such a woman for help?

I've heard tell of men who can literally die from blue balls.

I've yet to see it for myself, but they assure me it's a serious concern.

Nah, if they could, there wouldn't be nearly so many jerks.

Most feminine "flirtatious" gestures of this kind are submissive gestures of some kind or another.  Heck, even being nearly-naked displays extreme vulnerability.  Not that this isn't "sexist" in the sense that it assumes different traits between men and women, but it's far more subtle a commentary than OMG BEWBS!!!!!!!  Bioware is mature enough to assume that men are actually capable of seeing past the bewbs to encompass the full situation and all of its nuances.  Unfortunately, given most of the commentary this is not the case.  It's sad that so many men really are walking caricatures of their own worst sexist stereotypes.

[Cainhurst Crow]

So 64 Flogs walk into a bar wrote...

@darth brotarian

Demons are a COMPLETELY different thing to humans. To use human biology as a way to judge their gender is ridiculous. They do not reproduce as we do, what need for gender would there be?

Female frogs do not have breasts. Do they automatically look male? No, because we know better than so as to use human sexual features as a template for figuring out the gender of a completely different thing.

Demons are not corrupted humans like Hurlocks are, and so any resemblance to human biology is simply design as opposed to a comment on their gender.

So what are we talking about here? I thought it was asking why demons didn't look like males or females other than desire demons. I just thought the pride demon looked decidedly more male than other demons. Plus I don't really belive the argument about them being so foreign that we can't use human physiology in determining their gender when the threads entire postering is about using human physiology in defining a desire demon as more female.

[Airdeen]

M25105 wrote...

PsychoBlonde wrote...

M25105 wrote...

And yet that same place where the Empress rules has all male knights raping women left and right, cause they can. And in the Landsmeet I can't recall more than one woman.

You mean, apart from Anora, Grand Cleric Elemena, Ser Cauthrian, and Bann Alfstanna?

Anora is leader by default. Cauthrian is just an officer, not a ruler. That leaves Bann Alstanna and the Cleric and I don't see that Chantry all that powerful by most lords. It reminds me more of the pope, where rulers would pay lip service just to look good.

And even if all four counted, for every woman in the game in a position  of power there's probably at least 8 or more males. It's how things were in the old world.

DA is not the same as the old world. It's a fictional world and even though it is inspired by medieval Europe it is very far from being a copy.

Women can be powerful nobles, they can reach high ranks in military groups (both national armies, Grey Wardens and Templars). The numbers aren't 50-50, but there's nothing in game stating that women can't do what men do (or the other way around). In the bordellos you can choose whether you want to see male or female prostitutes as well.

[Cainhurst Crow]

I really don't see how the desire demons don't make sense either when you look at what they are. They embody lust, desire, craving, wants and dreams that people tend to have but most times feel they can never have.

A man who longs for a beautiful woman, a woman who longs for a beautiful woman, a woman who longs to look like a beautiful woman, a man who longs to look like a beautiful woman, a person whose sought after by many, and who offers you everything you want, all the power and pleasure you could want, all of that seems like it would lead pretty well into it's form to me.

Although I also believe the succubus theory posted back on page one was probably one of the main reasons. Iconic sexy demon for the game and all that.

[Darth Death]

M25105 wrote...

Darth Death wrote...

So 64 Flogs walk into a bar wrote...

 The other demons seem agendered in their looks, but a desire demon is clearly female. Just wondered why that was :innocent:

Because even then, demonic or otherwise, women still care about their appearance.

Careful there buddy, you don't wanna generalise and appear sexist.

It's Bud, not buddy;)

I jest... Or at least I think. Sometimes humor has a symbiotic relationship with truth.

[AlexanderCousland]

Another sexist debate? Smh.

Question, what's wrong with the desire demon being female?

even the sub-conscious mind recognizes female's more desireable, If they weren't I'd imagine the total population of earth would be way less then it is today.

[So 64 Flogs walk into a bar]

Darth, that is exactly my point: desire demons are the only one made to look so much like a human. I was wondering why it appeared as a female.

[So 64 Flogs walk into a bar]

FreshIstay wrote...

Another sexist debate? Smh.

Question, what's wrong with the desire demon being female?

even the sub-conscious mind recognizes female's more desireable, If they weren't I'd imagine the total population of earth would be way less then it is today.

 
What?

That doesn't make any sense....

Why would the population be smaller if (as is the case) all women don't find other women attractive subconciously?

[PsychoBlonde]

M25105 wrote...

And even if all four counted, for every woman in the game in a position  of power there's probably at least 8 or more males. It's how things were in the old world. 

This comment is incredibly hilarious to me.  So, you didn't actually bother to count, you just assume it's true because you intentionally ignore the women who are present.

Let's actually count the major-role powerful women vs. powerful men:

Women: Flemeth, Wynne, Morrigan, Anora, Marjolaine, Leliana, Isolde, Shale, Branka, Jarvia, Ser Cauthrien, Lanaya, the Lady of the Forest so, around 13

Men: Loghain, Uldred, Zathrian, Duncan, Alistair, Sten, Oghren, Bhelen, Harrowmont, Bann Teagan, Arl Eamon, Zevran, Irving, Greagoir, Caradin, Howe  So . . . around 16.  Hardly an EIGHT TO ONE superiority in numbers.

It's a common conceit as well that the person holding the bag is the one pulling the strings, but nothing could be further from the truth.  Holding the bag sucks, and if you can get somebody else to do that while letting you be the one to make the decisions, it's far superior comfort-wise.  This is part of the reason why Alistair comes across as efeminate to me in particular--he wants to pull the strings and have the Warden agree with him.  But he doesn't want to hold the bag and be responsible for the consequences.  Most of the men I know hold the bag and are pretty happy letting somebody else pull the strings the majority of the time.  It's hardly a representative sample, but it seems to be a common-enough trait that people make jokes about it.

[Airdeen]

FreshIstay wrote...

Another sexist debate? Smh.

Question, what's wrong with the desire demon being female?

even the sub-conscious mind recognizes female's more desireable, If they weren't I'd imagine the total population of earth would be way less then it is today.

What is considered desirable varies across cultures and time. In parts of ancient Greece the love between two men was seen as more pure. Having sex with women was commonly seen as a necessary evil for the sake of reproduction.

[Cainhurst Crow]

So 64 Flogs walk into a bar wrote...

Darth, that is exactly my point: desire demons are the only one made to look so much like a human. I was wondering why it appeared as a female.

We trust humans more than eldric horrors, thus would allow a humanoid demon to tempt us more than we would say a giant firey ball of lava, a giant pile of rages, or a steroid pecktoral demon.

Modifié par Darth Brotarian, 06 juillet 2013 - 07:39 .

[Cainhurst Crow]

FreshIstay wrote...

Another sexist debate? Smh.

What? Were you expecting charlie chaplin?

[Darth Death]

So 64 Flogs walk into a bar wrote...

Darth, that is exactly my point: desire demons are the only one made to look so much like a human. I was wondering why it appeared as a female.

Good question. Such explanations could be exempt in the realm of fantasy. I honestly don't know. 

Edit: Wait, there's another sith master here. Was I being addressed or...

Modifié par Darth Death, 06 juillet 2013 - 07:43 .

[So 64 Flogs walk into a bar]

You forgot the Divine, Celene, Cullen, Cassandra and Haven's revered father.

[So 64 Flogs walk into a bar]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

So 64 Flogs walk into a bar wrote...

Darth, that is exactly my point: desire demons are the only one made to look so much like a human. I was wondering why it appeared as a female.

We trust humans more than eldric horrors, thus would allow a humanoid demon to tempt us more than we would say a giant firey ball of lava, a giant pile of rages, or a steroid pecktoral demon.

Excuse me? ALL demons are trying to convince you of things. Just the way they do it is different; Rage demons play on your rage, pride demons play on your pride. There is no reason therefore that they shouldnt appear as humans too, or tht desire should not appear as human.

[anathesnail]

Because everybody desires women, everybody
Ok, maybe not everybody but IMO it's a more aesthetically pleasing demon (even though she's uglier than my grandma's old sandals), and you are supposed to desire her

[So 64 Flogs walk into a bar]

Darth Death wrote...

So 64 Flogs walk into a bar wrote...

Darth, that is exactly my point: desire demons are the only one made to look so much like a human. I was wondering why it appeared as a female.

Good question. Such explanations could be exempt in the realm of fantasy. I honestly don't know. 

Edit: Wait, there's another sith master here. Was I being addressed or...

Ah sorry, I was addressing brotarian. 

Sorry man, I'll just call you death from now on haha

[So 64 Flogs walk into a bar]

anathesnail wrote...

Because everybody desires women, everybody
Ok, maybe not everybody but IMO it's a more aesthetically pleasing demon (even though she's uglier than my grandma's old sandals), and you are supposed to desire her

A male version could be just as arthesically pleasing when compared to pride and rage demons. Just see the picture of a male one I posted a link to a few pages ago; he is just as hot.

[Ridwan]

PsychoBlonde wrote...

M25105 wrote...

And even if all four counted, for every woman in the game in a position  of power there's probably at least 8 or more males. It's how things were in the old world. 

This comment is incredibly hilarious to me.  So, you didn't actually bother to count, you just assume it's true because you intentionally ignore the women who are present.

Let's actually count the major-role powerful women vs. powerful men:

Women: Flemeth, Wynne, Morrigan, Anora, Marjolaine, Leliana, Isolde, Shale, Branka, Jarvia, Ser Cauthrien, Lanaya, the Lady of the Forest so, around 13

Men: Loghain, Uldred, Zathrian, Duncan, Alistair, Sten, Oghren, Bhelen, Harrowmont, Bann Teagan, Arl Eamon, Zevran, Irving, Greagoir, Caradin, Howe  So . . . around 16.  Hardly an EIGHT TO ONE superiority in numbers.

It's a common conceit as well that the person holding the bag is the one pulling the strings, but nothing could be further from the truth.  Holding the bag sucks, and if you can get somebody else to do that while letting you be the one to make the decisions, it's far superior comfort-wise.  This is part of the reason why Alistair comes across as efeminate to me in particular--he wants to pull the strings and have the Warden agree with him.  But he doesn't want to hold the bag and be responsible for the consequences.  Most of the men I know hold the bag and are pretty happy letting somebody else pull the strings the majority of the time.  It's hardly a representative sample, but it seems to be a common-enough trait that people make jokes about it.

Apostates and mages aren't considered powerful in Dragon Age. Leliane is more or less homeless and before that she was a spy that was considered expendable. The only ones on that list of yours that actually has power are Anora, Branka, Jarvia, the Lady of the forest (if she counts as a woman) and Marjolaine (mainly due to her wealth and ability to hire a small band of mercs, how much political power does she actually have?).

Now to be fair, Oghren is just a drunkard, Sten is an officer and not a ruler, Zevran is expendable. Once again, the men are more numerous when in position of power. A homeless girl running around with a bow, is not a powerful character when it comes to political influence and deciding the fate of those that live on the land.

[AlexanderCousland]

So 64 Flogs walk into a bar wrote...

FreshIstay wrote...

Another sexist debate? Smh.

Question, what's wrong with the desire demon being female?

even the sub-conscious mind recognizes female's more desireable, If they weren't I'd imagine the total population of earth would be way less then it is today.

 
What?

That doesn't make any sense....

Why would the population be smaller if (as is the case) all women don't find other women attractive subconciously?

If Men didn't find Women desirable, the population of earth would be smaller. I didnt say all Women find other Women attractive subconsciously, i said women recognize themselves as more desirable, that is undeniable. (Wether they appreciate the benefits of being the more desirable sex is another issue)

[Maria Caliban]

FreshIstay wrote...

Another sexist debate? Smh.

Question, what's wrong with the desire demon being female?

even the sub-conscious mind recognizes female's more desireable, If they weren't I'd imagine the total population of earth would be way less then it is today.

A single man can get dozens of women pregnant at once. Even if 90% of the male population had no attraction to women, the human population would be similar.

The cap is 'women are willing/able to conceive and raise children.' A woman can only become pregnant with (typically) 1 kid at a time and pregnancy is a drain on the body in a way sperm production isn't for men.

[So 64 Flogs walk into a bar]

I'm sorry, apostates and mages aren't considered powerful?

You are aware that they are so powerful that they are locked up right?

[So 64 Flogs walk into a bar]

@Freshistay, you can't be serious...

How is it 'undeniable' that women are more attracted to other women than men? That just.......look, as someone who has a fairly basic knowledge of biology, even I know that if more women were attracted to women than men, population rates would DECREASE, not INCREASE!