365 réponses à ce sujet

[Iakus]

chemiclord wrote...

I'm not entirely convinced this is true, at least to the degree you paint it out as.  You'd still have a ton of griping about "Starbrat" and the lack of a "final boss" for example (things that are out there but are currently being drowned out by general dissatisfaction.  ME2 had a large chunk of ill feelings at the time when it ended, and that could end on a resoundingly triumphant note.

I'm certainly not saying there wouldn't be complaints.  But it would have been at the level of what people complain about in other games.  It would have pssed with hardly a ripple.

 

I think you'd be amazed that we agree on this almost word for word.  But at the same time, much of why Shakespeare IS remembered to the degree of acclaim he has is BECAUSE he didn't just give the "generally happy endings" and the "proper writing formula" of his time.  As much as the formula works to keep grumbling to a dull roar, it also lends your work to being pretty quickly forgotten and pushed aside for the next work that follows the formula.

SImply going against the grain isn't enough.  Do it badly, and you're forgotten even faster than the one who does "tried and true" well.  Or even passably  

I certainly don't think this writing team was anywhere near the level of skill they needed to pull off something unconventional (and honestly have NEVER particularly thought of the Bioware writers as somehow exceptional even among their video game peers)... I'm not going to completely wish them ruin and spite and venomous anger a year and a half later because they (perhaps foolishly) tried to touch the sky and failed.  I'll always credit the attempt to challenge customary writing, even if it fails (and God Almighty did this fail hard).

I don't wish them ruin and spite (though my anger is still venomous at times) I just want them to remember who and what they were.  And if you're going to try to touch the sky, try it with a new ip, ideally a standalone game.  Don't wreck the end of a multiyear, multigame journey with "Hold my beer and watch this!"

[BaladasDemnevanni]

iakus wrote...

I'm certainly not saying there wouldn't be complaints.  But it would have been at the level of what people complain about in other games.  It would have pssed with hardly a ripple.

Yeah, I'll take that bet, just based on the weeks following ME3's release.

Every other thread/article which appeared on the internet had to go out of its way to quality their complaints and explain that this had nothing to do with wanting a happy ending.

What's left right now on the forums are the dregs of the retake movement. And Shepard getting a happy ending was far below the list of complaints in comparison to all the Catalyst making synthetics to kill organics to stop them from being killed by synthetics jokes which popped up alone.

[chemiclord]

iakus wrote...

I don't wish them ruin and spite (though my anger is still venomous at times) I just want them to remember who and what they were.  And if you're going to try to touch the sky, try it with a new ip, ideally a standalone game.  Don't wreck the end of a multiyear, multigame journey with "Hold my beer and watch this!"

I think they remember just fine.  They just don't want to do that anymore.

That's their call.  You don't like it... oh well.

Modifié par chemiclord, 10 juillet 2013 - 02:16 .

[Iakus]

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

Yeah, I'll take that bet, just based on the weeks following ME3's release.

Every other thread/article which appeared on the internet had to go out of its way to quality their complaints and explain that this had nothing to do with wanting a happy ending.

What's left right now on the forums are the dregs of the retake movement. And Shepard getting a happy ending was far below the list of complaints in comparison to all the Catalyst making synthetics to kill organics to stop them from being killed by synthetics jokes which popped up alone.

I was there too.  People didn't want a forced happy ending just like they didn't want a forced sad ending.  What people wanted were both.  A variety, like what Biwoare claimed we could have.  

If you got the impression that nobody wanted the option for a happy ending, it was likely because the pro-ending crowd was belittling and shouting down people for being "crybabies who can't handle a deep ending" and other such nonsense. 

[Iakus]

chemiclord wrote...

iakus wrote...

I don't wish them ruin and spite (though my anger is still venomous at times) I just want them to remember who and what they were.  And if you're going to try to touch the sky, try it with a new ip, ideally a standalone game.  Don't wreck the end of a multiyear, multigame journey with "Hold my beer and watch this!"

I think they remember just fine.  They just don't want to do that anymore.

That's their call.  You don't like it... oh well.

Sadly, I think they've bought their own press.  They got so high off past successes they think they can do no wrong.  Now with ME3 and DA2, we're seeing the results of that.

[MegaSovereign]

I'm so board of this thread.

Lame, I know but I've always wanted to say that.

[spirosz]

MegaSovereign wrote...

I'm so board of this thread.

Lame, I know but I've always wanted to say that.

AHAHAHAHA

[spirosz]

We're still going on about the endings that won't change and how Bioware is allowed to do what they like with what they're creating and how fans like to overhype themselves?

[AlanC9]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Well, Tropes has ME3's Synthesis as the "Golden Ending". It is the hardest to get and requires a perfect play and still requires some multiplayer or all DLC packs. Minimum 4000 EMS. So I'm guessing the synthies bitter tears are sustaining you?

Re: itals: You know better than that. So do the Tropers. If it ever said 4000 EMS the page has been edited to reflect current reality.

What is the current reality for synthesis?

It doesn't require anything like 4000 EMS, MP, or DLCs. These days the breath clip's at 3100; I believe Synthesis needs 2800.

Modifié par AlanC9, 10 juillet 2013 - 03:22 .

[MegaSovereign]

spirosz wrote...

We're still going on about the endings that won't change and how Bioware is allowed to do what they like with what they're creating and how fans like to overhype themselves?

Yea, as much as I love Mass Effect no one really cares that much outside of BSN. Bioware will be fine. Ending haters/supporters will be fine. Everyone will be fine.

People are just board because there is nothing to talk about.

[AresKeith]

MegaSovereign wrote...

spirosz wrote...

We're still going on about the endings that won't change and how Bioware is allowed to do what they like with what they're creating and how fans like to overhype themselves?

Yea, as much as I love Mass Effect no one really cares that much outside of BSN. Bioware will be fine. Ending haters/supporters will be fine. Everyone will be fine.

People are just board because there is nothing to talk about.

There's always something to talk about, like the new GTA 5

[MegaSovereign]

AresKeith wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

spirosz wrote...

We're still going on about the endings that won't change and how Bioware is allowed to do what they like with what they're creating and how fans like to overhype themselves?

Yea, as much as I love Mass Effect no one really cares that much outside of BSN. Bioware will be fine. Ending haters/supporters will be fine. Everyone will be fine.

People are just board because there is nothing to talk about.

There's always something to talk about, like the new GTA 5

Lol true but I meant within the Mass Effect story discussions.

[spirosz]

MegaSovereign wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

spirosz wrote...

We're still going on about the endings that won't change and how Bioware is allowed to do what they like with what they're creating and how fans like to overhype themselves?

Yea, as much as I love Mass Effect no one really cares that much outside of BSN. Bioware will be fine. Ending haters/supporters will be fine. Everyone will be fine.

People are just board because there is nothing to talk about.

There's always something to talk about, like the new GTA 5

Lol true but I meant within the Mass Effect story discussions.

True.   Might as well jump on board. 

[AresKeith]

MegaSovereign wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

spirosz wrote...

We're still going on about the endings that won't change and how Bioware is allowed to do what they like with what they're creating and how fans like to overhype themselves?

Yea, as much as I love Mass Effect no one really cares that much outside of BSN. Bioware will be fine. Ending haters/supporters will be fine. Everyone will be fine.

People are just board because there is nothing to talk about.

There's always something to talk about, like the new GTA 5

Lol true but I meant within the Mass Effect story discussions.

True, but I wonder what would be the reponse if I post this:

Casey Hudson wrote...

"On the next Mass Effect game, we're starting fresh - we're developing a completely new fictional universe that'll be the basis of a new generation of gameplay and storytelling. It's an exciting time, and the best part is that I'll continue to work with the team that created the Mass Effect series as we push forward."

[MegaSovereign]

My response is that it probably means the next game will be in an alternate timeline.

[Iakus]

MegaSovereign wrote...

My response is that it probably means the next game will be in an alternate timeline.

Or is that the new IP?

I mean, I really hope they go alternate timeline with the next Mass Effect game, but still...

[AresKeith]

iakus wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

My response is that it probably means the next game will be in an alternate timeline.

Or is that the new IP?

I mean, I really hope they go alternate timeline with the next Mass Effect game, but still...

Can't really be the new IP if it has Mass Effect on it

But if it doesn't involve anything that's related to Mass Effect, then their just trying to sell a product with the namesake which is stupid

[MegaSovereign]

iakus wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

My response is that it probably means the next game will be in an alternate timeline.

Or is that the new IP?

I mean, I really hope they go alternate timeline with the next Mass Effect game, but still...

The words "next Mass Effect" is in the same sentence so I don't think there is a lot of room for interpretation.

[Iakus]

Eh, true.

But the current ME universe was so badly folded, spindled and mutillated I see little reason to go back.

[AlanC9]

The Twilight God wrote...
No, actually they don't live THAT long. Samara may have another 300 years, but that would not be enough to see her with her daughter, who is on a backwater with a population of 1. Nobody is going to waste resources and centuuries of travel to recover one ardat yakshi.

300 years is plenty of time to get from Sol to asari space. 

Mesana is a garden world within standard FTL range of another colony; how many decades before someone flies over from Trategos to see what's up? And since the ME maps don't distinguish between primary and secondary relays, neither one of us knows whether the Nimbus Cluster is years away from the rest of asari space, or only weeks.

And Grunt is clearly still an adolescent of a race that supposedly matures faster than most. No large amount of time transpires.

When he matures he would look different.... how, exactly? I don't have my krogan physiology textbooks handy.

[AlanC9]

We're way OT here, so I'll drop this after this post. Last word's yours if you want it.

The Twilight God wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...
Note that as phrased above it sounds like you've got the Catalyst's explanation of Synthesis backwards. The mental changes are on the synthetic side, not the organic side. But that's probably just rhetoric.

Then how does it solve anything if organics are still the same as they were before?

Organics are not the same. They're now upgradeable so they can keep up with the organics. It's OK to find the argument flawed, but get it right if you're going to talk about it.

IT is a theory proposing that everything post Conduit run is a dream. I have never supported IT, I have argued against it and nothing I have posted here is IT.

But your case A requires that the endings are hallucinations or outright lies to the player. if you want to say that's not really IT, so be it. I'm using the more colloquial definition where any ending interpretation that requires Bio to be lying to the player is IT, but I'm not all that concerned with the taxonomy of theories.

[BaladasDemnevanni]

iakus wrote...

I was there too.  People didn't want a forced happy ending just like they didn't want a forced sad ending.  What people wanted were both.  A variety, like what Biwoare claimed we could have.  

Sure, the occasional thread. There was also the occasional thread from people wanting a final boss. I doubt the endings would have been received much better with a happy ending vs. TIM turning into a giant robot which some posters requested.

If you got the impression that nobody wanted the option for a happy ending, it was likely because the pro-ending crowd was belittling and shouting down people for being "crybabies who can't handle a deep ending" and other such nonsense. 

Nah, I'd say you're off the mark on that point. The pro-ending crowd was an extreme minority in the immediate aftermath. In other words: they could not out-shout the anti-ending crowd. It was caused by all the Retake threads coming from posters who hated the endings but wanted to make clear it wasn't because they were sad. This was something which alot of posters fought against when Ign articles among others started appearing to say everyone was upset that Shepard didn't live. There were threads which complained about space magic (Synthesis), the Rachni import, the 16 endings bit, the A-B-C endings, lack of closure with companions, the disappearance of Shepard's squad, Shepard's lack of argument against the Catalyst, and especially the Catalyst's logic. And in all that there were also some happy ending arguments.

My point is: you're giving happy ending fans too much credit in saying we wouldn't have had the retake movement if Shepard lived, assuming all the other nonsensical crap was in there. 3/4 of complaints? Really?

Modifié par BaladasDemnevanni, 10 juillet 2013 - 12:09 .

[o Ventus]

Mature krogan = flat, rigid head plate and rougher skin

Modifié par o Ventus, 10 juillet 2013 - 11:34 .

[CronoDragoon]

chemiclord wrote...

Well, I don't think a game can effectively HAVE both, honestly.

Wouldn't ME3's endings qualify? They are a moral choice with each option having it's own good/bad versions based on your EMS. I'm not saying the execution was great, but I think the structure is definitely plausible.

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 10 juillet 2013 - 02:51 .

[CronoDragoon]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

So, in the end, which was the tone that should have been expected: ME1's, or ME2's?

The tones are largely similar to me. Virmire is really the only big ME1 choice that has consequences. The final save Council/let them die choice really doesn't have any; you supposedly are sacrificing troops, but they are unnamed, unseen, and unmentioned afterwards. Additionally, because choosing one or the other has no practical difference in stopping Sovereign despite what the game tells you, the only reason to sacrifice the Council is because you don't like them, in which case "the Council dies" is not a consequence but a benefit.

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 10 juillet 2013 - 03:02 .