365 réponses à ce sujet

[AlanC9]

Right. But IIRC Shepard's not allowed to say that unless the quarians really will back down. Which satisfies chemiclord's objection anyway, I think , but the causality's a little odd.

Modifié par AlanC9, 12 juillet 2013 - 05:40 .

[Iakus]

Eh, blame that on lack of dialogue options. There have been situation is the past where Shepard can ineffectively ask people to back down.

[BaladasDemnevanni]

iakus wrote...

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

chemiclord wrote...

 Why would the quarians feel at all compelled to listen to this outsider?  Who does this human think he is?

Well, Shepard could have threatened them with extermination if they didn't stand down-- let Legion upgrade the geth, and then the quarians either believe Shepard's bluffing or they don't.

Isn't that exactly what he does?

In the renegade version, yes.   He tells the quarians if they keep fighting, he'll stand aside and let the geth annihilate them.

What's the Paragon variant, out of curiosity?

[chemiclord]

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

What's the Paragon variant, out of curiosity?

Shepard scolds Garrell for three minutes so convincingly that Garell sets aside his lifetime of hatred for the geth and tells the fleet to cease fire and allow the geth to continue uploading.

[The Twilight God]

AlanC9 wrote...

300 years is plenty of time to get from Sol to asari space. 

Really? What gave you this idea? The codex gave me the opposite idea.

AlanC9 wrote...

Mesana is a garden world within standard FTL range of another colony; how many decades before someone flies over from Trategos to see what's up? And since the ME maps don't distinguish between primary and secondary relays, neither one of us knows whether the Nimbus Cluster is years away from the rest of asari space, or only weeks.

Although I find it very doubtful that the Thessia is "right around the corner" from Sol based on the galaxy map which shows it being quite a way away. The codex says decades and centuries between relays. What you are ignoring is that the likelihood of anyone making a round trip to get a single Ardat-Yakshi is nigh 0%.

If FTL was so great why are expansion so limited to relay routes? There is no location in ME that any known race visits in any practical manner that is not within practical FTL range of a relay.

AlanC9 wrote...

And Grunt is clearly still an adolescent of a race that supposedly matures faster than most. No large amount of time transpires.

When he matures he would look different.... how, exactly? I don't have my krogan physiology textbooks handy.

The codex? Before the game even came out bioware made it clear that Grunt is an adolescent and that he has undeveloped plates and a small hump to illustrate his immaturity. His loyalty mission was about him hitting puberty. You honestly can't see the difference between Grunt and every other krogan you see in the game?

[mass perfection]

What do you call a woman with an opinion?Wrong.

[The Twilight God]

AlanC9 wrote...

Organics are not the same. They're now upgradeable so they can keep up with the organics. It's OK to find the argument flawed, but get it right if you're going to talk about it.

Keeping up with synthetics (I assume you meant synthetics?) was not sole problem leading to AIs. The problem was humans make machines, in general, to improve their standard of living, efficiency and to divert unwanted tasks. To free them up for things they'd rather do. If humans are psychologically unaltered then they will still seek to improve their lives by dumping the unwanted tasks on new tech. If I had superman's powers that doesn't mean I'd rather farm land than play videogames. I'd still make machines to do it if the Kid's story is true.

Even if humans had equal AI strength, which the ending debunks as the asari or human carrying the crate should have been able to carry it by themselves. I've seen Shepard move steel girders out of the way rather effortlessly  with his upgrades. But there are inherent physical limitations to a body. For instance, EDI, by virtue of having no limits imposed by a humanoid form can react, perform and multitask better than any corporeal including a crew of geth in platforms. Nothing has really changed. It's just a Deus Ex rip-off that doesn't fit.

AlanC9 wrote...

But your case A requires that the endings are hallucinations or outright lies to the player. if you want to say that's not really IT, so be it. I'm using the more colloquial definition where any ending interpretation that requires Bio to be lying to the player is IT, but I'm not all that concerned with the taxonomy of theories.

A does not require any hallucination or lies.

No, you chose to ASSUME things turn out great, but nothing in the ending affirms that. The patch simply differentiates the endings' presentation due to complaints, but does not fundamentally change them from the original. As I have stated in other threads the slideshow is just that; a slideshow. The narrators, Shepard, EDI or Hackett, are in the present talking about what could be, what they want to do and how they hope things will turn out. Not what has actually transpired. The dialog could have easily been tailored to be past tense, where the narrations are in past tense about WHAT HAS happened, but that isn't the case. You assume that the stuff does happen without it being shown in real-time. The very last scene in real-time is the memorial scene (or breath scene). Nothing in those slides has come to pass at the time of credits. If your assumptions are incorrect that doesn't constitute the perpetuation of a lie. That's just you jumping to conclusions and treating your assumptions as facts.

[AlanC9]

[quote]The Twilight God wrote...
[quote]AlanC9 wrote...
300 years is plenty of time to get from Sol to asari space. [/quote]
Really? What gave you this idea? The codex gave me the opposite idea.[/quote]

What percentage of the galaxy are we crossing to get from Sol to asari space? Crossing the entire disc of the galaxy at standard FTL would take under 30 years at standard FTL, though that's just the pure travel time without regard to scooping fuel and drive discharge. If Reaper dirves are reverse engineered the travel time's less than ten years, and fuel and charge concerns go away.

[quote]AlanC9 wrote...
Mesana is a garden world within standard FTL range of another colony; how many decades before someone flies over from Trategos to see what's up? And since the ME maps don't distinguish between primary and secondary relays, neither one of us knows whether the Nimbus Cluster is years away from the rest of asari space, or only weeks.[/quote]

Although I find it very doubtful that the Thessia is "right around the corner" from Sol based on the galaxy map which shows it being quite a way away. The codex says decades and centuries between relays. What you are ignoring is that the likelihood of anyone making a round trip to get a single Ardat-Yakshi is nigh 0%.[/quote]

Who said anything about Thessia being right around the corner from Sol? Why is that even in quotes?

Also, I never said that a ship will be going to Mesana with a mission of rescuing Falere either. Just that asari ships will go there.

[quote]
If FTL was so great why are expansion so limited to relay routes? There is no location in ME that any known race visits in any practical manner that is not within practical FTL range of a relay.[/quote]

People use relays because they're more convenient than not using them, yep. This doesn't mean that less convenient methods won't work. It just means that they're less convenient.

[quote]
The codex? Before the game even came out bioware made it clear that Grunt is an adolescent and that he has undeveloped plates and a small hump to illustrate his immaturity. His loyalty mission was about him hitting puberty. You honestly can't see the difference between Grunt and every other krogan you see in the game?
[/quote]

I don't have any objection to using non-game sources, though if Twitter canon's acceptable some of your earlier threads would have died stillborn. But if you're going to cite this stuff could you link to it? I didn't see any of that material the first time around. And saying that Grunt looks different doesn't prove much unless you've got data for at what age his apperarance would change to "mature." At 50? 200? 500?

I don't really got a dog in this fight though. Let's asume you're right and Grunt should have looked older. Bio would still have left Grunt looking like Grunt in the pics so the audience would recognize him  -- rather than thinking that they were seeing unknown krogan #36.

Modifié par AlanC9, 14 juillet 2013 - 03:53 .

[The Twilight God]

AlanC9 wrote...

What percentage of the galaxy are we crossing to get from Sol to asari space? Crossing the entire disc of the galaxy at standard FTL would take under 30 years at standard FTL, though that's just the pure travel time without regard to scooping fuel and drive discharge. If Reaper dirves are reverse engineered the travel time's less than ten years, and fuel and charge concerns go away.

The same way they reverse engineered relays? Oh, right. The Council has been using them for thousands of years and still have no clue how they work. They are so advanced that the very idea of trying was deemed laughable by the asari. I'm sure now that their infrastructure is a mess and they have to deal with the widespread disease, hunger, etc. they'll have the secrets unlocked before bedtime. They couldn't even properly reverse engineer the thanax cannon which has nothing on the genuine Reaper equivalent.

AlanC9 wrote...
Also, I never said that a ship will be going to Mesana with a mission of rescuing Falere either. Just that asari ships will go there.

Sure, maybe in the distant distant distant future after Samara has already died of old age.

But at this point in time with other major ports and population centers to reconnect to, why would anyone waste the time and resources to go to a cluster that has only one person? An outcast at that. There will be no mother daughter reunion post-destroy. Well, if the writing was ****ty enough as the author would have to ignore all lore and the situation. Bad writing or it didn't happen. Take your pick.

People use relays because they're more convenient than not using them, yep. This doesn't mean that less convenient methods won't work. It just means that they're less convenient.

They aren't simply "less convenient". They are outright impractical based on fuel reasons alone. Not to mention travel time, time dilation and the psychological effects of such extended trips. They do not use relays because they are merely convenient. They use them because they are the ONLY practical option.

I don't have any objection to using non-game sources, though if Twitter canon's acceptable some of your earlier threads would have died stillborn. But if you're going to cite this stuff could you link to it? I didn't see any of that material the first time around. And saying that Grunt looks different doesn't prove much unless you've got data for at what age his apperarance would change to "mature." At 50? 200? 500?

Non-game sources? It's in the game. We are told he is an adolescent. He looks different than EVERY OTHER KROGAN IN THE GAME. He hits puberty IN THE GAME. Every krogan looks at him and knows he's a youth on sight alone. If Grunt does not mature within a few years then the whole thing about quick maturation is refuted. He can't take 50 years and be considered a fast maturing race in the eyes on any of the others. Even the Salarians consider Krogan fast maturing. They give the rachni a run for their money.

There is no "twitter canon". The game holds all the canon. The stuff that is hard proof. Nothing released pre-release is necessary to determine Grunts immaturity. The game itself tells you as much.

Just so we're on the same page, are you honestly trying to argue that Grunt is physically matured? Do you think he's deformed? Or are you just the type of person who will never admit when they are wrong?

I don't really got a dog in this fight though. Let's asume you're right and Grunt should have looked older. Bio would still have left Grunt looking like Grunt in the pics so the audience would recognize him  -- rather than thinking that they were seeing unknown krogan #36.

You'd have recognized his unique suit and bodily coloration. But I believe we both feel that picture is meant to depict a moment relatively soon after the Crucible firing. Grunt shouldn't have looked older because the scene cannot have occurred. It is either the wishful thinking of the narrator and never actually comes to pass. Or it does come to pass and represents bad writing. Take your pick.

[Erez Kristal]

Thanks for stopping by twilight, i read your theory not long ago, Disagree about your claim that shooting the tube shouldnt have damaged the crucible. take a look if you want to elaborate http://social.biowar.../index/16991922

[The Twilight God]

erezike wrote...

Thanks for stopping by twilight, i read your theory not long ago, Disagree about your claim that shooting the tube shouldnt have damaged the crucible. take a look if you want to elaborate http://social.biowar.../index/16991922

"your claim that shooting the tube shouldnt have damaged the crucible"

I'm not sure exactly what you're talking about. I don't believe I posted any such view about anything in the chamber at eye level damaging the Crucible. The only thing that damages the Crucible are the Reapers. The only thing that destroys it are again, the Reapers, and an overload (I suppose???) if it fires the beam. However, this subject is off topic.

[Han Shot First]

I think Bioware had the right idea in aiming for a bittersweet ending. There needed to be some loss in the finale, and not just a ridiculously upbeat conclusion to the series. They just stumbled very badly with the execution.

The bitter in bittersweet should have come from a couple casualties on your squad in the end run (possibly including Shepard, depending on your choices), but the galaxy itself shouldn't have been a casualty. The sweet in bittersweet should have come from saving galactic civilization, rather than condemning it to a dark age. Also, having your final choices presented by the God-King-of-All-Reapers was a bad idea.

[Erez Kristal]

you cant do a bittersweet ending if the writers hijack the protagonist on key moments and nerf him for it.
This feels like the game is cheating against the play. it breaks immersion and alienate the game from the player.
The player knows this isnt really how his story would have enrolled. and so he is left bitter and angry.

Modifié par erezike, 20 juillet 2013 - 06:17 .

[Mcfly616]

erezike wrote...

you cant do a bittersweet ending if the writers hijack the protagonist on key moment and nerf him for it.

I must've missed that part...

[Iakus]

csm4267 wrote...

An ending where you beat the Reapers with minimal casualties, and everyone goes home (mass relays kept intact) would be completely out of tone with the series. As well as beating the Reapers without using an I-Win button (conventional victory). This game has always been about choices and consequences. Make a choice to destroy the Reapers, there's going to be some serious consequences to go with that.

People who want watered down consequences or no consequences at all (MEHEM), go against everything this series was about. That mod disrespects the series themes more than the mysterious Starchild ever could.

Did you even play ME1 and ME2?

[Iakus]

Mcfly616 wrote...

erezike wrote...

you cant do a bittersweet ending if the writers hijack the protagonist on key moment and nerf him for it.

I must've missed that part...

You see, it starts with a magic space elevator and a ghost child saying 'wake up"...

[BaladasDemnevanni]

csm4267 wrote...

An ending where you beat the Reapers with minimal casualties, and everyone goes home (mass relays kept intact) would be completely out of tone with the series. As well as beating the Reapers without using an I-Win button (conventional victory). This game has always been about choices and consequences. Make a choice to destroy the Reapers, there's going to be some serious consequences to go with that.

People who want watered down consequences or no consequences at all (MEHEM), go against everything this series was about. That mod disrespects the series themes more than the mysterious Starchild ever could.

Just like the suicide mission? And the Rachni Queen? The Geth-Quarian conflict?

Face it, bro. Virmire aside, Bioware really failed hardcore at choices and consequences. The ME series had plenty of moments with perfect win scenarios.

[Mcfly616]

iakus wrote...

Mcfly616 wrote...

erezike wrote...

you cant do a bittersweet ending if the writers hijack the protagonist on key moment and nerf him for it.

I must've missed that part...

You see, it starts with a magic space elevator and a ghost child saying 'wake up"...

the intelligence? Don't see how it hijacked Shepard or nerfed him....

[KaiserShep]

csm4267 wrote...
An ending where you beat the Reapers with minimal casualties, and everyone goes home (mass relays kept intact) would be completely out of tone with the series. 

Wrong. You'd have to ignore the entirety of 1 and 2 in order to get this phantom tone you speak of.

Modifié par KaiserShep, 20 juillet 2013 - 02:07 .

[Mcfly616]

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

csm4267 wrote...

An ending where you beat the Reapers with minimal casualties, and everyone goes home (mass relays kept intact) would be completely out of tone with the series. As well as beating the Reapers without using an I-Win button (conventional victory). This game has always been about choices and consequences. Make a choice to destroy the Reapers, there's going to be some serious consequences to go with that.

People who want watered down consequences or no consequences at all (MEHEM), go against everything this series was about. That mod disrespects the series themes more than the mysterious Starchild ever could.

Just like the suicide mission? And the Rachni Queen? The Geth-Quarian conflict?

because those even compare to the entire Reaper armada? Not even close.

[KaiserShep]

Mcfly, when referring to tone, those things do matter, and set the pattern.

[Mcfly616]

KaiserShep wrote...

csm4267 wrote...
An ending where you beat the Reapers with minimal casualties, and everyone goes home (mass relays kept intact) would be completely out of tone with the series. 

If you ignore the entirety of Mass Effect and Mass Effect 2, this would be true.

But it isn't. 

You mean the two games where we learn that there's an army of skyscraper-sized synthetic juggernauts out there, who's purpose is to destroy/harvest all life in the galaxy every 50,000 years for countless cycles and have never failed?

[KaiserShep]

And yet the entire series shows nothing but their best laid plans being thwarted. The idea that they never failed in the past doesn't matter. This doesn't set the tone of the series. The victories over them and their forces, however, does just that. 

Modifié par KaiserShep, 20 juillet 2013 - 02:19 .

[ShepnTali]

There was no reason the odds wouldn't be beat again, regardless of how 'impossible' the story portrayed it. They could have just as easily written in any other magic bullet to resolve it. It's just a matter of which magic bullet an individual prefers.